What would be the easiest and a good fuel set up to support an evo316g?

[96gstdsm]

Ok i decided to pour some money into my car now. I think i am going to go ahead and upgrade to an evo316g turbo. My question here is what fuel setup would be best and easiest to do? I have zero experience with any turning. What fuel pump and injectors would be best? With all setups would it require tuning? Would i always need a afpr? It is only going to be a street car. No racing or anything like that so i am not going to try and be pushing like 400hp or anything crazy. Just want more pick up and top end from the t-25.
Let me know any ideas. Just pretty confused after reading everything here, so many different opinions.

--Ryan.

 

[jumpfroggy]

If i were to decide to go with a dsm chip, what else would i need to accompany that? Would it work fine with my stock ecu? I heard i have to get it socketed, what is that? Would it be expensive to have it socketed? Also would i still need an afc or some other tuning device with the programmed chip? What places would do ecu socketing?

First off, a chip is only useful if you have an ECU that uses a chip. That's called an "EEPROM" ECU (ie. a chip-using ECU). After 95, they didn't use them anymore (and not all 95's used them). You can take out your ECU and check, it's pretty easy and will confirm for sure what you have (someone may have swapped it already, who knows).

The eeprom (ie. chip) is soldered to the ecu. "Socketing" means removing the chip and putting a plug in there so you can insert/remove it at will. Then you can replace the chip with a custom (which is what we're talking about here) whenever you want.

So you need to know: a) what kind of ECU you have (eeprom or not), b) if it's eeprom then you need to know if it's socketed. If you don't have an eeprom ecu (which is likely if it's stock from the '96) then you need to get one. Plan on around $200.

So your tuning options would seem to be:
1) SAFC for $100-150 used. Timing is a bit of an issue with 650's since the fuel and timing are linked with the SAFC tuning, but it's doable. Also need a logger, $100 used.

2) You have an eeprom, so get it socketed and buy a chip for your injectors. Don't know how much socketing is, but I've seen custom chips for around $100, if I remember correctly. Then a logger, $100. No SAFC required, although some still get one to fine tune.

3) You don't have an eeprom, so buy one for $200, get it socketed ($?), buy chip ($100 or so), logger ($100), again AFC optional.

4) DSMlink. An additional $500 (after you get a socketed eeprom ecu) plus need a laptop, serial/usb cable, no logger or afc. You probably don't need or want this additional expense. If you do, this is the one for you.

I'd personally go SAFC with 550's or 650's for you. Easy way to do it, no extra expense. Also easy to tune (just follow the howto's). A chip is nicer/easier, but may add $300+ to your cost (ecu + chip), so it all depends on your budget and how "nice" of a tune you want.

 

[kmoore]

Well from what I know If you run 550's you can max them out pretty easily once you get in that higher boost area, and I believe evos are 560's so they probably wouldnt be much different. 650's seem like you'd have more room to breathe but a little harder to control timing. I'm sure there are tons of threads on this.

Well, although the Evo injectors say 560cc they flow more like 590cc- 600cc according to this thread.http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251088&highlight=Evo+Injectors

 

[evogst97]

Well, although the Evo injectors say 650cc they flow more like 590cc- 600cc according to this thread.http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251088&highlight=Evo+Injectors

You mean 560's flow more like 590-600. If thats true then maybe I will get some evo injectors. Any proof on them flowing 590-600 other than two guys in that post saying they do? I'll do a quick search and see what I find.

UPDATE: Found this thread which furthers the higher flow due to negative deadtime (they open faster than 550's). Check it out. Apparently people have logged 590-600 on dsmlink with the evo and have noticed they had to take away a few more points of fuel compared to 550's.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244732&highlight=evo+injectors

 

[kmoore]

You mean 560's flow more like 590-600. If thats true then maybe I will get some evo injectors. Any proof on them flowing 590-600 other than two guys in that post saying they do? I'll do a quick search and see what I find.

UPDATE: Found this thread which furthers the higher flow due to negative deadtime (they open faster than 550's). Check it out. Apparently people have logged 590-600 on dsmlink with the evo and have noticed they had to take away a few more points of fuel compared to 550's.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244732&highlight=evo+injectors

I'm sorry your right. Little typo error.

 

[tylermartindc]

I am a fan of oversized injectors. Take a look at my profile. If you can get them for a reasonable price and you have a means to compensate for them then get'em. This way you have room to grow if you decide to push your car more in the future. If you don't and the only thing you'll be using is an AFC you probably shouldn't go bigger then 650's.

Is there any down side to running injectors that are too large for your setup? I ask this because I am going to be running dsmlink, and thought since 680cc and 880cc are the same price, why not run the 880cc and only buy injectors once. I guess to narrow my question down, is it bad for the injector to be running rather low duty cycle?

 

[jumpfroggy]

As far as I've read, as long as your tuning device can compensate, there's no reason not to get reasonably big injectors (ie. anything you'd normally run into, 800's included). DSMlink can handle arbitrarily-sized injectors (just adjust dead time and fuel map).

Most recommendations I've seen say just to get as big as you want and let DSMlink compensate. I've never seen anything that suggests "under utilizing" injectors (ie. using big 800's on a 16g, etc) is in any way bad.

 

[My91TalonTSi]

I guess to narrow my question down, is it bad for the injector to be running rather low duty cycle?

To my knowledge, no.

I read through lots of threads before purchasing my fuel system and it seemed that the majority of members felt that it's ok to go with big injectors if you have plans to go with a big turbo down the road. Again, as long as you have a means to compensate for them, ie. DSM Link, custom eeprom, etc.

 

[JayRolla]

I've already got my evo16g installed with a new ported exhaust manifold and i can already tell a huge difference except i cant really run it hard cause when it hits about 18-20psi i hit fuel cut, but just form the bolt on with no fuel mods theres a huge difference from the t-25. I should be receiving my fuel mods in the next day or so. I went with SAFCII, 190 lhp pump that I will re-wire (stocker already is)and I went with the Precision 580cc Ball-style. And I'm ordering my FMIC tomarrow. I'm looking to get 300hp with that and then add cams so I'm hoping for 320+ with cams.

If you are hitting fuel cut on a 2g maf at around that boost, you have a boost leak. Fix your boost leaks before tunning.

 

[96gstdsm]

If you are hitting fuel cut on a 2g maf at around that boost, you have a boost leak. Fix your boost leaks before tunning.

I have hit fuel cut once on mt stock t-25. I have the boost raised up, but i heard that it was not even possible to get fuel cut with the t-25? Would that mean i got some nice boost leaks?

 

[JayRolla]

300 hp at the wheels from an EVO3 is not really streetable. EVO3's max out around 400-420HP or their abouts in their usable range of power (I believe slowboy has some charts on it) or roughtly 320 hp at the wheel assuming a 20% loss in the drivetrain and I can gaurantee those number's aren't using pump gas.

If 300 wheel hp is your go, consider a 50 or 57 trim style turbo which have a higher flow than the EVO3.

Obviously though, if I am incorrect someone please correct me.

How is 300whp not streetable. Slowboy also made 420hp to the ground, it wasnt to the flywheel. 300whp to the ground is real easy on the evo16g. If he wants 375whp or more than yes he should go with a larger turbo. The 16g on pump gas usually cant make more than 350whp.

If your goal is low and you dont have all the money in the world than you seem to be on the right track. Just make sure you get a logger and WBo2 for easy tuning.

 

[Splitpi]

How is 300whp not streetable. Slowboy also made 420hp to the ground, it wasnt to the flywheel. 300whp to the ground is real easy on the evo16g. If he wants 375whp or more than yes he should go with a larger turbo. The 16g on pump gas usually cant make more than 350whp.

If your goal is low and you dont have all the money in the world than you seem to be on the right track. Just make sure you get a logger and WBo2 for easy tuning.

A GST is traction retarded at the higher HP (or just generally speaking, need a good LSD). Secondly, streetable implies pump gas as you stated 350 whp on pump gas is difficult. I posted conservative numbers. As well as a new clutch.

But inorder to make ~300 whp as the OP mentioned, he needs a minimum of 750 cc's and 190 lph pump. Which means he needs DSMLink, or other standalone, since SAFC's really have problems at 650 or greater. 650's will put you in the neighborhood of 250 whp depending on drivetrain loss.

So once again, my recommendation to the OP is save up and do it once correctly rather than partially and want more, which will generally lead to running the system on the edge of its capabilities..

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

300 hp at the wheels from an EVO3 is not really streetable. EVO3's max out around 400-420HP or their abouts in their usable range of power (I believe slowboy has some charts on it) or roughtly 320 hp at the wheel assuming a 20% loss in the drivetrain and I can gaurantee those number's aren't using pump gas.

If 300 wheel hp is your go, consider a 50 or 57 trim style turbo which have a higher flow than the EVO3.

Obviously though, if I am incorrect someone please correct me.

Are you kidding?
i've been running 20+psi daily for a long time (not just on an evo 3) but im over 300whp now at just 21psi on my evo. Given it IS easier to make more power on a bigger turbo or a turbo with a larger compressor housing in general, it isnt NOT streetable to have an evo 3 powered vehicle


Also, eventhough the afc may have some problems controlling 650s, i've also ran that combo with a walbro 255 (lp), stock fpr, and evo 3 at over 20 psi daily on pump gas with no ill effects. Its just a matter of wether or not you wanna actually tune your car or tune it right

 

[Splitpi]

Well, although the Evo injectors say 560cc they flow more like 590cc- 600cc according to this thread.http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251088&highlight=Evo+Injectors

I spoke some of the engineers (via a distributor) who checked up on the spec sheets and stated they flow higher than 560cc's as well.

 

[My91TalonTSi]

650's will put you in the neighborhood of 250 whp depending on drivetrain loss.

Are you sure about this? An EVO puts down roughly a little less then that in stock form with injectors smaller then 650's.

 

[hopwoodp]

Just an FYI. When I got my Evo3 from RRE back in 04 I got the full install kit, 190 fuel pump and a mbc. I only boosted 14 psi with stock injectors. It ran fine like that. Robert at RRE could explain how all of this works to you. Just so you know - 2g ecu's seem to do alot better on fuel and timing that the 1g's. So, we could get away with leaving alot of the stuff stock. The only thing you really need to look at is knock and egts. Also, the T25's hp limit is 250 at 18psi with supporting mods.

So, thats the easiest way to run an evo3 but, you would not be able to get the full potential of that turbo unless you do what has been written by the other guys.

 

[Splitpi]

Are you sure about this? An EVO puts down roughly a little less then that in stock form with injectors smaller then 650's.

Do the math yourself

wheel HP = ~0.8 * ((Inj Size/10.5)*#Inj*Duty Cycle)/BSFC

Example:

whp = 0.8 *((650/10.5)*4*.8)/0.63 = 250 hp rounded down.

BSFC for turbo engine range from .5 to .7, it is a measure of the engine efficiency and vary's by engine as well as by individual engine's between each design. So this value is really a best guess. I personally prefer to be conservative and be suprized by higher values rather than set my expections higher and be dissappointed, so I use .63 in my calculations.

Think of a turbo like a compressor. Compressor A delivers 2.4 CFM @ 90 psi, while Compressor B delivers 6.4 CFM @ 90 psi. Your impact wrench requires 5.4 CFM @ 90 psi to deliver its maximum torque of 340 ft/lbs. In the example it is the CFM not the PSI which translater the impact wrench into power... just like an engine, irregardless that the psi remained the same. Note: if you tried to use Compressor A, it would not flow enough and the PSI would dropoff as a result. CFM is really how fast the psi can be replenished given a certain flow amount.

only boosted 14 psi with stock injectors. It ran fine like that.

As I stated earlier, its not a matter of PSI so much as it is a matter of CFM or Lb/min of flow, this is what makes power, not psi that you boost too. You use boost as a crossreference to figure out the turbo map. But your advise is right on the money.

 

[evogst97]

Do the math yourself

wheel HP = ~0.8 * ((Inj Size/10.5)*#Inj*Duty Cycle)/BSFC

Example:

whp = 0.8 *((650/10.5)*4*.8)/0.63 = 250 hp rounded down.

BSFC for turbo engine range from .5 to .7, it is a measure of the engine efficiency and vary's by engine as well as by individual engine's between each design. So this value is really a best guess. I personally prefer to be conservative and be suprized by higher values rather than set my expections higher and be dissappointed, so I use .63 in my calculations.


As I stated earlier, its not a matter of PSI so much as it is a matter of CFM or Lb/min of flow, this is what makes power, not psi that you boost too. You use boost as a crossreference to figure out the turbo map. But your advise is right on the money.

I dont want to get in an argument and don't want to do a search for threads to prove that even 550's can support more horsepower than that, but just as a quick point, shapegsx ran 650's and was flowing 44 pounds a minute.

 

[Splitpi]

I don't want to get in an argument and don't want to do a search for threads to prove that even 550's can support more horsepower than that, but just as a quick point, shapegsx ran 650's and was flowing 44 pounds a minute.

http://www.stealth316.com/images/td05hr-16g6-jlspec.gif
http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/

44 lbs/min = 44 * 14.27 (conversion factor) = 627.9 CFM = 0.27 m^3/s

Looking at the above chart that is on the very far right edge of the choke line, if not past it at ~ 26-30 psi. What RPM did he make that much power at?

Also on the assumption of .63 BSFC and an ideal A/F of 11:1, 44 lb/min = 380 hp at the crank. I would really seek clarrification on those numbers, it is doable.. though. At .53 BSFC it is 450 hp

I would liketo quote Slowboy aswell:
"Please note that SBR recommends this turbo if you are looking to make between 280 and 380 streetable horsepower. Above 380 wheel horsepower, your going to be running a lot of boost and some excellent fuel to sustain the power numbers without hurting the engine."

 

[evogst97]

I'm not sure about the RPM you could do a search on his posts. I think he was putting down like 400 something horsepower. His mods are pretty average for how much power he was putting down. He had like cams, 1g intake manifold,etc. He ran something like an 11.8.

 

[hopwoodp]

Do the math yourself

wheel HP = ~0.8 * ((Inj Size/10.5)*#Inj*Duty Cycle)/BSFC

Example:

whp = 0.8 *((650/10.5)*4*.8)/0.63 = 250 hp rounded down.

BSFC for turbo engine range from .5 to .7, it is a measure of the engine efficiency and vary's by engine as well as by individual engine's between each design. So this value is really a best guess. I personally prefer to be conservative and be suprized by higher values rather than set my expections higher and be dissappointed, so I use .63 in my calculations.

Think of a turbo like a compressor. Compressor A delivers 2.4 CFM @ 90 psi, while Compressor B delivers 6.4 CFM @ 90 psi. Your impact wrench requires 5.4 CFM @ 90 psi to deliver its maximum torque of 340 ft/lbs. In the example it is the CFM not the PSI which translater the impact wrench into power... just like an engine, irregardless that the psi remained the same. Note: if you tried to use Compressor A, it would not flow enough and the PSI would dropoff as a result. CFM is really how fast the psi can be replenished given a certain flow amount.


As I stated earlier, its not a matter of PSI so much as it is a matter of CFM or Lb/min of flow, this is what makes power, not psi that you boost too. You use boost as a crossreference to figure out the turbo map. But your advise is right on the money.

Thank you. You are totally correct about cfm and psi. I was only referring to the evo 3 turbo.

 

[nightspeed87]

I am a fan of oversized injectors. Take a look at my profile. If you can get them for a reasonable price and you have a means to compensate for them then get'em. This way you have room to grow if you decide to push your car more in the future. If you don't and the only thing you'll be using is an AFC you probably shouldn't go bigger then 650's.

i agree 100% even though im not going bigger than 850s.

 

[ShapeGSX]

I'm not sure about the RPM you could do a search on his posts. I think he was putting down like 400 something horsepower. His mods are pretty average for how much power he was putting down. He had like cams, 1g intake manifold,etc. He ran something like an 11.8.

[email protected] on one pass.
I hit 118.8 on another pass.

I've never dynoed my car. So I don't know how much power it was making. But it is pretty heavy. 3315lbs.

Those turbo charts are only valid at something like 65 degrees. When I hit 44lb/min, it was probably around 35 degrees out. I only ever hit that a few times. More normal for my car is to hit somewhere between 41 to 43lb/min