What Injectors Are Good?

[pbgrove]

Hello, I just need some help. I bought a evo3 turbo for my 2g eclipse and I need to get fuel injectors, not sure what kind to get

Leave some comments.

thanks

 

[khsdm]

how much hp do u have or plan on having? look for injectors around 600's, if u plan on having a respectful amount of hp.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Denso 660's. Although they flow 690 at 43 PSI.

 

[river]

simply put, in my opinion and the general opinion of slowboy racing...denso injectors suck...go with some FIC 650's...you wont be dissapointed. i ran them in my car for a long time with a Evo III 16G along with a 255 lph and safc2, never a single problem. i like the spray pattern alot better than denso style also. the FIC injectors are ball/disc type, which i believe to be better.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

simply put, in my opinion and the general opinion of slowboy racing...denso injectors suck...go with some FIC 650's...you wont be dissapointed. i ran them in my car for a long time with a Evo III 16G along with a 255 lph and safc2, never a single problem. i like the spray pattern alot better than denso style also. the FIC injectors are ball/disc type, which i believe to be better.

Funny, considering I bought them out of Slowboy's head mechanic's car

And, I wouldn't take the opinion of anyone from Slowboy, anyways.

 

[BrownBa14]

RC 550's

 

[hornetsnest]

Funny, considering I bought them out of Slowboy's head mechanic's car

And, I wouldn't take the opinion of anyone from Slowboy, anyways.

He was getting rid of them

 

[river]

Funny, considering I bought them out of Slowboy's head mechanic's car

And, I wouldn't take the opinion of anyone from Slowboy, anyways.

and he took them out for what reason, and what type is he putting back in?? FIC is the way to go, period.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

He took them out because he was taking the GT-12 out of his car.

I know plenty of people who are using these, none with problems.

I heart internet hearsay.

 

[river]

didnt say they had problems, its just what i prefer, as i said above. i PREFER the spray pattern of the ball/disc type..i believe it to be more effective.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

I don't see the word "prefer" in this entire paragraph. I see the words "they suck." I'll give you that you said "I believe," but still, you earlier said they sucked.

simply put, in my opinion and the general opinion of slowboy racing...denso injectors suck...go with some FIC 650's...you wont be dissapointed. i ran them in my car for a long time with a Evo III 16G along with a 255 lph and safc2, never a single problem. i like the spray pattern alot better than denso style also. the FIC injectors are ball/disc type, which i believe to be better.

Edited for spelling on my part.

 

[river]

ok, well let me rephrase..in my opinion denso's suck, i prefer the FIC ball/disc type...i prefer the spray pattern over denso's, but in the end either will work fine seeing as to how i have, and do run both styles in the past and present.

 

[dave99gst]

Denso 660's.

ditto

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

ok, well let me rephrase..in my opinion denso's suck, i prefer the FIC ball/disc type...i prefer the spray pattern over denso's, but in the end either will work fine seeing as to how i have, and do run both styles in the past and present.

Preference is one thing. To say something sucks without any proof or reasoning is useless information.

 

[river]

want proof? go look for a spray pattern on both styles and look for a burn efficiency chart. i really dont feel like wasting my time anymore. bottom line, IMO i like the FIC ball/disc type.

 

[igorsgonemadd]

Im going to have to agree with river. I prefer FIC injectors as well for the same reasons. Im not saying densos suck but I will say I think FIC are much better. However dont get RC's they do suck!!! Ok now the RC lovers can flame me.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

want proof? go look for a spray pattern on both styles and look for a burn efficiency chart. i really dont feel like wasting my time anymore. bottom line, IMO i like the FIC ball/disc type.

I don't think that this is a waste of time, considering most threads I see any more are about nothing worth discussing.

While searching, since you so kindly said so, I found people praising both sides, but no burn charts or what not. I did, however, find this -

Pintle
This is the most common type and still the best. A tapered needle sits on a tapered seat. When the solenoid is energized, the core and needle is pulled back, allowing the fuel to discharge. This design has been well proven for over 30 years.

http://www.sdsefi.com/injectors.htm

and this...

Fuel Injectors
There are two common types of fuel injectors, pintle and disc (Lucas style). Pintle injectors have a superior spray pattern to disc actuated injectors, but disc injectors are less expensive and generally flow large amounts of fuel easily. If possible, always choose high flow pintle style injectors, as fuel atomization at anything other than full throttle (high velocity port flow) is superior, leading to better drivability and economy. Below is a picture illustrating what I mean about the spray patterns…(pic below)

http://importnut.net/ignitionfuel.htm

and this...

Each injector design has its own weaknesses and strengths but the pintle design that ACCEL uses has proven to be the most accurate and repeatable out of the three, albeit the most costly to manufacture.

http://www.h-body.org/people/projects/building_lt1/how EFI works.html

and lastly, this...

There are basically 3 types of injectors with regards to the flow orifices. One is the pintle style of which most older Bosch and Nippondenso types are. These have a small tapered spike or pintle which is pulled back when the magnet windings are energized, thus letting the fuel spray out. These are very reliable and quite resistant to plugging. We recommend Bosch, Nippondenso and OEM injectors only.

The second type is the GM/Rochester/MSD ball type. These have slightly better atomization but are more affected by dirt and varnish. In our experience these do not have the long term reliability of the pintle style. We specifically do not recommend the use of MSD injectors 2011 or 2012. These injectors are electrically incompatible with our drivers.

The third type is the disc style. These are made by various companies including Bosch/Ford and Lucas. These are popular in late model applications but also are not as reliable in the long term as the pintle style.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/efi/efi_project_manual.htm


Might as well discuss....

 

[river]

it all comes down to what you want really. each seems to perform well, some a bit better than others. they seem to favor the pintle style, but i prefer the ball/disc style. if you want long term relaibility then go with the pintle style, they atomize well, but not as well as the ball type. next you have the ball type which has better atomization but may be more prone to clogging due to design. i really dont prefer the the disc type, but its next on thier list...they have good atomization also from my exerience, but dont last altogether long. basically, they all flow well and some may atomize better than others, but then the pintle style lasts longer. you make one sacrifice for another. see, then you have the FIC style which incorporates the ball and disc style. ive never had a problem with these style injectors. they seem to atomize and perform like no other. they have a completely unique spray pattern that only they use. to get a basic idea of how these injectors spray look at the link http://www.ffwdconnection.com/fuel.htm they have the widest spray pattern and they also sustain the higher duty cycles than other style injectors. this is why i believe that the FIC injectors are superior to any other injector on the market, and most generally they are cheaper than the denso "pintle" style injectors also.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Alright, I understand what you're saying about the atomization, and like you said, you're comprimising one for another. I'm interested to see just how much difference there is between the ball/disc and the pintle during non-WOT driving. I honestly don't think it would be anything anyone would ever notice.

As far as duty cycles, I would rather not have to run my injectors at a high duty cycle, even if they could sustain it. But then again, that's preference.

So, we agree that pintle style is more reliable.

Does anyone have any kind of burn chart or anything to show the differences in ball/disc and pintle?

See river, we can play nice

 

[river]

i dont think its much that anybody would ever notice, but i know my logger and DSMlink notice it. if you are running the setup i am running you would want higher injector cycles, or for that reason, you would most likely want higher cycles for any real high performance car/truck imo. as far as the pintle style being more relaible, i think it is superior over the ball type and the ball type as single units, but when you pair them to create the FIC ball/disc type i believe the FIC to be just as reliable if not more reliable. also, as i said, i really like the spray pattern and the atomization caracteristics also. i prefer the duty cycle for my car and just because they are able to run higher cycles does not mean you have to run them that way. as far as guys looking for a good injector who do not really want to get into tuning, meaning they dont want to get an safc, just want a good upgrade from stock injectors...any pintle style would be fine. i believe for higher performance and effectiveness that the FIC ball/disc style are superior. unfortunately i could not find a burn chart for the two injectors. but basically if you want to see spray pattern, imagine fuel being sprayed directionally from left to right in a mist (kind of a limited spray area) and that is the pintle style. effective but still the fuel is not reaching every possible area in the cylinder. then imagine having many smaller holes in the bottom of an injector, and each of those spraying a mist of fuel, combine all of those mists of fuel and you have a cylinder that is completely filling up with fuel and burning the fuel more effectively. none the less, either injector does its job...getting fuel into the cylinder. either/or are reliable as far as the denso style and FIC's go. however i believe that the ball style or the disc style are far inferior to either the denso's or FIC's. im going to keep trying to find a burn chart and an actual picutre of a spray pattern for both of the injectors that i am really debating here.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

i dont think its much that anybody would ever notice, but i know my logger and DSMlink notice it. if you are running the setup i am running you would want higher injector cycles, or for that reason, you would most likely want higher cycles for any real high performance car/truck imo.

I know the reasoning for higher duty cycles, but to max out an injector isn't the best thing to do, either.

What "setup" are you running? I wouldn't call a 16g-powered car "real high performance."

The closest thing I've found to a spray-shot is this - http://www.dsm-performance.com/ourinjectors.php, but you can't compare 450's to 550's.

 

[river]

well, my injectors are not maxed out even. and this link provided the excellent point i was trying to provide http://www.dsm-performance.com/ourinjectors.php it does show a spray pattern, basically. which one looks like it is going to be more efficient? i personally like this quote off the page "Our personal DSMs have started up and idled better with our 750 cc/min ball injectors than they ever did with 650 and 720 cc/min pintle injectors." and also this "What you are looking at is a ~30° spray pattern compared to a few degree pattern on the pintle injector. " if you want to know my setup, here it is, this is a car that i ran 12.2 @ 113. it included: prothane motor mounts, stock rebuilt bottom end, balance shaft eliminated, arp head studs, mitsu metal HG, ported exhaust manifold, ported 14b turbo w/ MBC set at 22psi, ported 02 housing, 3" turbo back exhaust, 1G MAS hard intake, hacked MAS, supra sidemount intercooler w/ hard modified upper and lower piping, 255 lph high flow fuel pump, FPR, FIC 650cc ball/disc type injectors, SAFC, logger w/ laptop in car, ACT 2600 clutch w/ street disc, SS clutch line, shifter plate bushings, shep racing tranny, 1994 big brake conversion, delete power steering, removed sound deadening material, alot of other weight reduction (still with full seating area though) and some gauges to monitor it all. i could have hit 11's if i would not have had wheelspin and had better tires on. i will be taking the same car out with drag radials next season to see what i can pull off still on the stock turbo. as far as the injectors go, switching from denso style to the FIC's is what pulled the more serious numbers down and put some major numbers down on the dyno for me. im not saying that these injectors will be benifitial to everybody, but believe they would be. in the end everybody loves thier own style injector that they have had good luck with, my preferance is the FIC's for every reason i stated and for the reasons that were posted in the link.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

I see that the spray pattern is wider, but I would like to see a 550 pintle against a 550 ball/disk.

Anyone else care to chime in?

 

[river]

honestly i dont think that a 550 ball/disc paired against a 550 pintle would not really make a difference. the spray pattern would still be the same, just the exact same amount of fuel...which you have to think, in that test from the link both injectors are being tested at the same pressure...probably not even maxed out for either injector.