Water Injection a power modification? (91 OCT)

[UofACATS]

Am I wrong to assume that a water injection kit will give me a couple horsepower with the following: 91 Octane gas, 15 Lbs boost on Big28, Stock intercooler, Arizona climate?
Also, stock injectors, no fuel control, Im basically stock.

 

[98GSX_MTX]

I have a B28 with H2O injection.

It will allow you to run more boost without knock.
It will allow you to lean out your AF ratio so you won't run your IDC as high.
It basically makes 91 octane function like 100 octane.

 

[definitiveno]

It basically makes 91 octane function like 100 octane.

does any one else agree or disagree with this?

 

[97TSIAWD]

does any one else agree or disagree with this?

Disagree, water does not have octane properties. It will allow you to run a little more boost or current boost without knock or detonation. I would suggest running denatured alcohol as I do. It does have octane properties and does increase the octane level, but not as much as race gas. The alcohol also has a lot of cooling properties, cleaning for the head, it is a good substance to use. Water is alright to use as well but I think using Alcohol is significantly better and if you do an internet search you will see a lot more people using alky, especially the Turbo Buick community.

 

[aleccolin]

The primary advantage for you is suppression of knock and ignition timing advance. Water will do just fine in suppressing knock due to its high latent heat of vaporization, and it will cause the system to behave as if you're using very high octane gas, so long as the rest of your fuel system is up to par. The proper water/fuel ratio is paramount and usually falls between 10% and 15%. The reason many use an alcohol (particularly methanol) and water mixture is that the alcohol is flammable, therefore it has it's own combustive heat energy to add to the mix, whereas water will only work to suppress knock.

Positioning of the nozzle is important too, being that vaporized water can cool the intake air charge temperature, yeilding a more dense air mixture which is always good, but atomized water in the combustion chamber is really what prevents knock on the compression stroke. Most water injection system manufacturers recommend placing the nozzle before the throttle body or IN the throttle body, before the throttle plate. It also does wonders to keep your combustion chamber clean.

There's a lot of info available, do some searching and reading (and do the math!) before making any decisions.

 

[definitiveno]

Ive already made the decision, and I wasn't trying to like call 98GSX_MTX out at all. Just trying to get a grasp on what these water/alcy kits can really do for me. My goal is to run around 25psi on pump 91, sounds like this is going to be a big help when the time comes. Thanks for your respones guys.

 

[Defiant]

Besides quenching and stablizing the flame front, water injection keeps the combustion chambers clean. Shockingly clean.

Adding alcohol does more to keep the water from freezing than actually doing much for the burning process.

"Power" from WI comes mostly of the ability to run more ignition advance while forestalling the usual pre-ignition symptoms.

 

[Quasimondo]

Just like hot-rodders consider nitrous to be a 'chemical supercharger', consider WI to be a 'chemical intercooler' A clean intake and combustion chamber is a nice benefit. From what I've read, the best water/alcohol mix to use is a 50/50 mix. Windshield washer fluid is usually 49.5% water/49.5% alcohol/1% blue dye, and I hear alot about people who use WI going with that solution.

 

[aleccolin]

From what I've read, the best water/alcohol mix to use is a 50/50 mix. Windshield washer fluid is usually 49.5% water/49.5% alcohol/1% blue dye, and I hear alot about people who use WI going with that solution.

Actually, I've been doing a lot of research into water/alchy injection and yes, while it is agreed that a 50/50 water/methanol mix is the best thing to use all around, normal BLUE washer fluid is not 50/50 with some dye, it's actually closer to a 2:1 water to methanol mixture, meaning 1/3 or 33% methanol, 2/3 or 67% deionized water, with some blue dye. This is the stuff that generally says on the bottle that it protects to -20 degrees F. SOME of these actually contain some industrial soap as well, usually less than 3%. Washer solvents that are designed for extreme low temperatures often contain more methanol as a de-icing agent - SOME as high as 50% - and often claim protection to 40 below or more, but the actual contents can vary to include soaps, rainx, etc. All this is supported by a bunch of msds sheets I've been able to find from different manufacturers, as well as information from sites dealing with water injection tuning.

 

[97TSIAWD]

Actually, I've been doing a lot of research into water/alchy injection and yes, while it is agreed that a 50/50 water/methanol mix is the best thing to use all around, normal BLUE washer fluid is not 50/50 with some dye, it's actually closer to a 2:1 water to methanol mixture, meaning 1/3 or 33% methanol, 2/3 or 67% deionized water, with some blue dye. This is the stuff that generally says on the bottle that it protects to -20 degrees F. SOME of these actually contain some industrial soap as well, usually less than 3%. Washer solvents that are designed for extreme low temperatures often contain more methanol as a de-icing agent - SOME as high as 50% - and often claim protection to 40 below or more, but the actual contents can vary to include soaps, rainx, etc. All this is supported by a bunch of msds sheets I've been able to find from different manufacturers, as well as information from sites dealing with water injection tuning.

I think the best thing all around depends on your setup. A lot of people push water or alky. Listen many have accomplished a lot on both. Some use all water, some a mix and some all alky. I found for my setup and a majority or others that all alky is the best. There is a lot of reasons why people won't run water, and if you do an internet search you will find out why.

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

Actually the "smurf piss" that I use is from walmart and it is 49/49/2. You just have to find the right washer fluid and get the right mix.

Some people purchase straight meth and mix it with distilled water. They claim this "feels" better than washer fluid.

And for what its worth it does act just like race gas.....meaning is supresses knock and allows for both more boost and timing. I actually can run more boost/timing w/water injection and 93 octane than I could with C16 race fuel.

10 gallons of race gase is $50. So it doesn't take long to justify the $300 price of water injection. Keep in mind you can always sell the kit for nearly what you paid for it or move it over to your next boosted car. I have the www.snowperformance.net stage 2 kit.

 

[aleccolin]

I have the www.snowperformance.net stage 2 kit.

Exactly what I'm looking at buying, hell of a deal for selectable onset boost referenced variable rate injection. Did you get the check valve that's recommended for >15 psi boost applications? I'm thinking about getting the fluid level indicating reservior too, unless I can find a simple fluid level sensor to wire up to the stocker.

 

[TargeT]

I run pure paint thinner from Ace hardware..

denatured alch.. I spray before the turn on my TB elbo & the effects are dramatic. on my 16g turbo (thats right 16g!!!) I went from pushing 17 psi with some knock, to pushing 24psi with less knock,

I never tryed using water, never wanted too, the cooling properties of alch injection on my air intake system & in the combustion chamber are AMAZING.. the turbo GN's have been doin it for a long time because they lack a good IC system.

right now i'm considering spraying in two locations, 1 before the TB and 1 b4 the FMIC, (less at the IC, a bit more at the TB)

 

[Jeff_Jeske]

I have heard the alch inj is much better but the cost is higher. I may try it some day when I get a bigger turbo but for now I can run the FP BIG 28 to 24PSI and not see any knock at all. I am adding 3* of timing and not brave enough to advance that any further.

As for the check valve....I didn't get that. I have the pump and bucket in the trunk and its mounted lower than the fogger so I have no need for it. The only thing I purchased extra was 20 feet of nylon tubing to run from the rear of the car to the engine bay. I puchased this at Franks Hardware for about $10. I tried using the plasic stuff first because it was much cheaper but due to pressure and temperature, I burst the line . Get nylon line.

 

[TargeT]

I also have my tank mounted lower than my injection point. so no leaking here...

but my tank is below where my battery used to be, much less pressure drop from the tank to the injection point that way, better atomization : )