Very SCARY!! Read last post

[bcjjones]

Started to tune via speed density and ostrich. I've read many places that the stock 1g timing map is very aggressive and after messing with it I do agree. My question is though, how much timing is too much timing? I have gotten my AFRs in the mid 10s for now running right at 20 psi and was able to advance the timing to as much as 23 degrees at wot on a stock side mount and had 0 knock. Maybe one or two counts steady in the lower rpm range though. Probably rich knock

It didnt seem as fast as I thought it would be with that much timing. I actually went back to the stock timing map and it seemed to pull a little harder from my butt dyno.

Is that just too much timing on my mild build? Or I am supposed to push the timing as much as possible on a certain boost psi untill I see knock and the more timing i can get away with the better?

 

[kchaazz]

Started to tune via speed density and ostrich. I've read many places that the stock 1g timing map is very aggressive and after messing with it I do agree. My question is though, how much timing is too much timing? I have gotten my AFRs in the mid 10s for now running right at 20 psi and was able to advance the timing to as much as 23 degrees at wot on a stock side mount and had 0 knock. Maybe one or two counts steady in the lower rpm range though. Probably rich knock

It didnt seem as fast as I thought it would be with that much timing. I actually went back to the stock timing map and it seemed to pull a little harder from my butt dyno.

Is that just too much timing on my mild build? Or I am supposed to push the timing as much as possible on a certain boost psi untill I see knock and the more timing i can get away with the better?

Every motor likes a slightly different timing map. Even if youre not knocking, you can be losing power with too much timing advance, and the only way to really know for sure where the sweet spot is is to throw the car on a dyno or run it at the track. On 93 pump, and a (small turbo) tdo5h 18G, running 25psi, my timing was right around 8- 9 degrees at full spoolup, then I increased timing 1-2 degrees per cell to end up at 18- 19 degrees peak timing at 7k. This was as high as I could go without knock on 93 pump and 11:1 afr. If I were you, Id lean her out to 11:1 and change the timing map to a much lower setting, then add a degree or two across the board until you see knock. The car should really come alive with 11:1 afr, and with the lower timing, you should be able to crank the boost a few psi, and boost will make more power than timing will.

 

[bcjjones]

I did plan on leaning it out and turning the boost up a few psi as you suggested. So your saying maybe start back over with the stock timing map, or are you saying lower the stock timing map at the higher loads by a few degrees and start from there?

Also, do you basically only adjust timing on the higher loads from when boost starts to kick in or all through the rpm range including lower rpm before boost? Another question I have is do I always increase timing as rpms increase or are there instances where timing will lower in some spots as rpms increase do to knock and then pick back up?

 

[1983gsp]

Care to update your profile?

 

[kchaazz]

I did plan on leaning it out and turning the boost up a few psi as you suggested. So your saying maybe start back over with the stock timing map, or are you saying lower the stock timing map at the higher loads by a few degrees and start from there?

Also, do you basically only adjust timing on the higher loads from when boost starts to kick in or all through the rpm range including lower rpm before boost? Another question I have is do I always increase timing as rpms increase or are there instances where timing will lower in some spots as rpms increase do to knock and then pick back up?

You dont have to start over with the stock timing map, you can just change the cells in the uppermost load point. You can also raise timing a bit in the area before spoolup so as to make the engine feel a bit less "laggy", but 8- 10 degrees at full spool is a good starting point cause youll most likely knock there if timing is too high, and lower timing can also aid spoolup. Your timing should be increasing all the way to the end of the rpm range. Are you using standard or extended maps?

 

[bcjjones]

I updated my profile. Thanks for the reminder!

So from spool up, which is around 3k, I want the timing advance not to exceed 10 degrees to redline? Because thats much lower then the stock table provides. Also I am doing this on mainly load rows 11 and 12 correct?

Im just using the standard timing map as I believe that is all the Jackal program provides

 

[kchaazz]

I updated my profile. Thanks for the reminder!

So from spool up, which is around 3k, I want the timing advance not to exceed 10 degrees to redline? Because thats much lower then the stock table provides. Also I am doing this on mainly load rows 11 and 12 correct?

Im just using the standard timing map as I believe that is all the Jackal program provides

Regarding the map, from the factory, the motor was seeing far less airflow than it is seeing now, hence the higher timing. You can begin with 10 degrees at 3K if you like and just go from there. If youre running the standard map and 20psi, you should easily only be on the top load row at full boost, so modifying the top should be all that is necessary regarding timing and most of the fuel map. Just go ahead and lean it out to 11:1, then change the timing map, then make a nice third gear pull with a log and adjust timing wherever you see knock. If it were me, Id go with something like this:

3k 3.5k 4k 4.5k 5k 5.5k 6k 6.5k 7k 7.5k
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

Then, if it doesnt knock, and your AFRs are nice and steady, add 1- 2 psi boost at a time until it knocks, then take a degree of timing out where it knocks and see if the knock is gone on the next pull. Just avoid cells that jump more than two degrees at a time or you could cause knock that way.

 

[bcjjones]

Wow okay thats helping me make sense of it a little more. Ill lean out my afrs and change my timing map. Now that you have pointed me in the right direction it definitely seems more realistic. I was wondering why I was loosing power. You have been a huge help and i truly apperciate it. Gives me the knowledge to hopefully help others. Ill let you know hiw it goes after work.

Curiosity is killing me though. With my current setup, what kind of power numbers am I looking at with a good tune? My brother is law swears his buddies Hyundai Sonata will "kill" mine in the quarter

 

[boost97gst]

Nice post kchazz. Makes it very simple and straight forward. Helped me a bit too. Thank you

 

[bcjjones]

Well I went ahead and re did the timing table on the lower rows to what you had suggested. Seemed okay untill i tried to do a WOT third gear pull and my afrs were around 13.5-14.0!!! Very very scary. So I added fuel to the entire boost VE comp and did another pull. Still at 13 afrs. So I again added a TON of fuel via the VE comp, and got the afrs down to 11.5 for now untill I figure this out.

I guess my question is, would lowering timing that much affect my AFR's as much as it did? Thats the only thing that was changed. I did rewire my map sensor to solder the wires together but I think if I had gotten one switched it probably wouldnt even run. Other then that though, nothing changed but the timing table

 

[Arthris]

Ive found that the IAT comp and CLT comp has a huge affect on my SD tune alot. Ive had to mess with it a bit to get it dialed in but day to day my car would do that. I had to increase my highest CLT comp table by about 10% and i upped my IAT comp table a few % from max temp to right around 90 or so. After that my AFR's would stay the same

 

[bcjjones]

Yea I didnt think about that. It was a little warmer today then it has been in the last couple weeks. I'm skeptical to that being the problem, though, only because through the rest of the power band afr's are normal. Only at higher boost, and higher load(which is what i changed) is where the afr's are off.

Maybe its because the IAT's are higher also at higher boost which could also be because of the higher Temps we had today.

Does timing affect afr's at all? I've read conflicting opinions

 

[Arthris]

Yes it does. Change ## timing at idle and see for urself. Higher temps will cause higher iat and clt temps. The comp for thoae cause ## ecu to lean out fuel

 

[bcjjones]

Well I richened the crap out of the VE comp. Im going to give adjusting my CLT temp and IAT compensation a shot a see how it goes. Hopefully that will help in lowering the VE back down. Its ridiculously high compared to what it was before(which was already rich).

Ill wait till the temps cool off here, and go make a little pull tonight and see what happens before adjusting anything. I appreciate it though, thats very helpful and something I hadnt thought about

 

[Arthris]

No problem. I had the same issues when it warmed up here. Had to adjust my VE tables and was frustrated until it it hit me. My clt temps where around 210 so i richened up my clt comp table and vola it fixed my issues. Along with adding a few percent to iat for the warmer temps