Turboed 5-8psi, Can't use more than half gas pedal? Injectors? MAP?

[wolfie359]

I'm REALLY new to turbos, but have been learning a lot fast. I just picked up my 98 Eclipse GS that I thought was a GST but its got an aftermarket turbo setup on a 420a. Got it for a great price and runs and drives great with no check engine lights.

The engine has obviously been redone at some point just looking at certain pieces. Only drawback is I don't know with what parts. I just put a new turbo on it, same T3/T4 hybrid, but dropped it from a 60 trim to a 50, still don't know what the heck trim means, old turbo was leaking oil badly! Also just put in a 0.060" oil restrictor to the turbo. Currently running about 5-8lbs boost.

Problem is: I can only use about 1/2 the gas pedal or it bogs out really bad... Doesn't misfire or anything, just on the line goes from FULL power to NO power. I was thinking maybe injectors or possibly the MAP sensor. Kinda hard to be testing fuel pressure while driving down the road, but I'm noticing no sound change from the fuel pump when it happens. Considering picking up FIC 850cc injectors, but I have no clue what cc's I should really be getting. I wanna go with E85 at some point. I'm not looking for a massive power/speed daemon, but I would like to have all of my pedal back. 300-350whp is plenty for now.

Okay... so... Theres this little black box that was hand made from chips and parts from Radio shack. Theres a resistor, 8 pin ceramic chip, and a voltage chip of some sort. 4 wires go to the box, and looks like its connected to the MAP sensor? Any idea why this would be done?

Any ideas? This is the little black box I was talking about. I guess its like a 12 pin chip.

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[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

Well its an aftermarket Walbro fuel pump as above. Injectors I'm trying to clean and look at now. I don't know of any tuning device on the car as of yet. I have an Autometer Vac/Boost Gauge, it reads about 5-7psi when it bogs down, also it bogs down at the same time I hear the waste gate open up. Right now the gate opens to a pipe kinda aimed at the engine block, yeah I know, not good but it works for now until I get it a new one, thinking about putting it back into the down pipe from the turbo where I'd think it should go, heard that might cause a Boost Creep problem???

Heres the pics of injectors (I unplugged it so u can get a better look) and little odd plug I found under the dash next to the OBD-II plug, the little white one? What is that?

As for the MAP Sensor, It looks stock, part number on the top is:
5269983
2377
00974
Written just as it look on the sensor itself. Looks like the part from Orilleys:
http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/large/bar/ba1580749-1.jpg

But I found this one at Orilleys too...? 2 Map sensors? But i cannot find it on my car anywhere.


Another thing .... My MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp) isn't lit, the bulb is good (it does turn on and off during system checks before starting engine), but for S's&G's (Shi*'s and Giggles) I did a quick error code test and it came up with a P0106 - MAP/Barometric Pressure Circuit Range/Performance Problem, would only seem correct being the car is turboed and stock its not... But what brings up the question is with this code the MIL should illuminate, someone programmed it to not come on...?

Your car could still run perfectly with a boost leak, that is unless its big to lose boost to where iot "feels" slower, either way its not a MAF type. That little white connector is the flash port, and its normal for ALL 420a cars to have. Dont be surprised but the only way to tune your with a turbo would be with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, and a map clamp/fcd. There is no such thing as a electronic "computer" that would be used as a tuning device for the 420a cars, unless you go to AFX(which shouldnt really be used with boosted applications) and megasuirt(which is a universal standalone). Those fuel pressure readings, did you get them under boost or under what condition? Check to see if the car has an afternarket fuel pressure, which depending on the year should be either mounted close to the fuel rail or the fuel pump. At this point i would blame your map clamp.

 

[wolfie359]

Well, I done screwed something up now! Dunno what I did and I've been working for quite a few hours trying to fix it. All I've done was pulled the fuel pump out and pulled the map sensor out and cleaned it, well and also fix a small issue with a fitting i was having with oil to the turbo. But that's it. Now the car won't idle on its own, my vac pressure is almost 0, but when I did the BLT only thing I was losing pressure at was the EGR Diaphram, Drop all pressure in about 15 seconds, normal?

Getting code P1297 Map Pressure Same from engine off to on...

I double checked all my connections I took off and their all tight.

 

[BIRDCLAWTSi]

Can you get numbers off of the side of the injectors? On the top part where it is blue plastic there should be numbers stamped into them. You should not be leaking air at the egr valve. How exactly is it leaking? Is it coming out of the diaphram into the engine bay? When you put the fuel pump back in ,Did you make sure the fuel pump was all the way into the sending unit?

Another thing i noticed, All of your vacuum lines are tee'd off of something else,bov is tee'd with the wastegate, and i cant really see what else is going on but that is not good either...

 

[wolfie359]

Yep fuel pump was all properly reinstalled, even with a new non rubber line and new clamps. Just replaced the gasket and used some sealer to triple make sure its air tight now.

I don't know where to put all the vacuum lines, I guess I really should get one of the vacuum line box things... I'll check on the FPR in a little bit here. The EGR is leaking from the Diaphram.

I'll try and get the number on the Fuel Injectors in a little bit too.

 

[FullMetalJack]

Maybe this will help you learn about "trim" and A/R of turbos. I would type it all up, but Garrett explains it better than anyone, after all...Garrett practically started the whole turbocharger theory, research, and developement. Here's the link:
TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech102

 

[LiquidX]

Well, I done screwed something up now! Dunno what I did and I've been working for quite a few hours trying to fix it. All I've done was pulled the fuel pump out and pulled the map sensor out and cleaned it, well and also fix a small issue with a fitting i was having with oil to the turbo. But that's it. Now the car won't idle on its own, my vac pressure is almost 0, but when I did the BLT only thing I was losing pressure at was the EGR Diaphram, Drop all pressure in about 15 seconds, normal?

Getting code P1297 Map Pressure Same from engine off to on...

I double checked all my connections I took off and their all tight.

Well you'll want to get the code taken care of for one.

So you did a PROPER boost leak test? Using spray bottle of soapy water and the EGR was the only place it was leaking? What pressure did you put it to for the test?

Leaking in 15 seconds is bad, but when I first did mine, it wouldn't hold any air at all once the pressure was let off. Just get a new gasket for the EGR and properly torque it down and see if it changes. You are for sure it's the gasket and not a faulty EGR?

 

[wolfie359]

Okay... Looks like I may have destroyed my map sensor trying to clean it Any ideas on what I should replace it with? I have the map clamp I believe to be used with the stock sensor.

What would you guys suggest? Maybe this can fix throttle issue .

Maybe this will help you learn about "trim" and A/R of turbos. I would type it all up, but Garrett explains it better than anyone, after all...Garrett practically started the whole turbocharger theory, research, and developement. Here's the link:
TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech102

Thanks btw I'm going to read that whole basic to expert and hopefully get some more understanding on how this stuff works.

Well you'll want to get the code taken care of for one.

So you did a PROPER boost leak test? Using spray bottle of soapy water and the EGR was the only place it was leaking? What pressure did you put it to for the test?

Leaking in 15 seconds is bad, but when I first did mine, it wouldn't hold any air at all once the pressure was let off. Just get a new gasket for the EGR and properly torque it down and see if it changes. You are for sure it's the gasket and not a faulty EGR?

About 10 to 25psi, couldn't ever get a solid reading because of the fast leak. As soon as I take it off pressure it drops to 0 psi in about 15 seconds or so. It looks like the original EGR valve, pretty sure its leaking from the diaphragm but Ill pull it out and clean it up, replace gasket just to check. I did use a spray bottle on my air inlet lines and no bubbles, also sprayed around my MAP sensor and it wasn't leaking. How long should I expect it hold steady pressure for?

 

[LiquidX]

YOu should be able to hold pressure for a couple minutes of a fully sealed motor. Grantid, wear and tear will lower your leak down and compressions which will affect how long you hold pressure for. 15 seconds means you do have a big leak, but it should only be 1 or 2 places it's really leaking from.

Spray all over any connections, the intercooler, injectors, throttle body, anything that will see any pressure source and it's best to have a friend listening for sounds as well

If you broke the MAP sensor, cheapest would be going to a junk yard and picking up a used one if you can't find one in the classifieds from a part out. You MAY be able to use an aftermarket MAP sensor but I'm not sure if you'll have to wire things differently though.

 

[wolfie359]

Well, I didn't really break the map sensor, I think i just damaged the pick-up on it when I was spraying it with WD-40... Didn't thing that woulda hurt it but I guess.... I was leaking pressure from the EGR Valve, so I custom made some block off plates out of 1/4" steel and bought new gaskets, no more leaks from there! Found that my Idle Air Control Valve was stuck open, dunno if computer was telling it to do that or just that dirty, so I'm cleaning that too. Could be my original problem actually. :-\

 

[bagged420a]

You really need to check for some type of adjustable fuel pressure regulator, because your running a wally 255lph.

 

[wolfie359]

You really need to check for some type of adjustable fuel pressure regulator, because your running a wally 255lph.

I've got a new very large blue FPR, but it doesn't look adjustable. There doesn't seem to be any name on it either. I guess I'll have to take it out and inspect it for a name.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

I've got a new very large blue FPR, but it doesn't look adjustable. There doesn't seem to be any name on it either. I guess I'll have to take it out and inspect it for a name.

Well for it to work on your car,it needs to be a FMU/rising rate fuel pressure regulator.

 

[Gasolinebaptism]

Well man, your car originally didn't have a turbo, then a turbo was installed, meaning more fuel needs to make it into the combustion chamber. There is an aftermarket pump, so that's good. but from your posts it kinda sounds like the previous owner took his upgraded injectors off and reinstalled the originals, therefore your fuel system can't keep up with the amount of air in the combustion chamber under boost. This means you are running lean, you O2 sensor sees this and cuts power. I recommend at least 550 injectors, 850 if you're going to E85 and DSMlink. set up the ECU for your setup and get on the road, no problems.

 

[wolfie359]

Happens to be that a friend of mine just upgraded his 1g to 550cc injectors. The ones he took out are his stock 450cc's, more than twice the size of mine. Think it would be advisable to throw these in and see if it makes things work a little better? I don't know anything about the differences in resistance, but he has a 1g talon tsi (92?).

 

[bagged420a]

I would say try and solve your problem running 8psi before you go upgrading more things. Solve the problem at hand first, because you will need something to controll 450's...as in megasquirt or portfueller(two most popular amoung 420a guys)

 

[wolfie359]

well, I'm almost wondering judging the upgrades to the rest of the car, if when the car was sold the stock injectors were put back in the car along with removing some of the other expensive parts...

If this car maybe were to already have one of those systems, where might I find it?

Actually, I guess thats kinda a dumb question... its expensive and they would have taken that too ...

 

[bagged420a]

well, I'm almost wondering judging the upgrades to the rest of the car, if when the car was sold the stock injectors were put back in the car along with removing some of the other expensive parts...

If this car maybe were to already have one of those systems, where might I find it?

Actually, I guess thats kinda a dumb question... its expensive and they would have taken that too ...

yea, if they took the injectors and stuff they def would have took out the management system too. But You could look under/around the footspace of the pass side and driverside, as thats where alot of people tuck there MS. And its not portfueler because you would notice the 4 extra injectors.

 

[wolfie359]

where would I find a Megasquirt system or similar and how much should I be expecting to spend on one?

 

[bagged420a]

Symetch labs has a kit, I think they run about $600. Not sure, check out there site.

 

[wolfie359]

** Waiting for new parts to come in **
New oil temp and pressure gauges, fuel pressure, A/F Kit
and a new oil feed line kit, mine's kinda messed up.
I'll let ya'll know what some of the readings are after their installed.

$600 megasquirt is going to have to wait a while :-/ I put a bit more money into this car than I've planned for. Might actually be selling my truck Tuesday... Anyone interested in a '97 Chev K3500HD Dulley, Gas 454, 109k mi, 9'2 boss V plow, sander and a light bar? $11,500 cash.

 

[wolfie359]

Okay, got my gauges in today! A/F gauge is showing Lean about 16:1. Wondering if I might have a bad O2 sensor.

 

[bryanwheat]

I don't even know where to start. There is alot of bad information given here. First off, for that boost level you DO NOT need bigger injectors. This is why you run a fmu, to increase the fuel pressure 10.0-1. That will give you a pretty good fuel ratio. (throw that a/f guage in the trash, you need a wideband). Second of all, that little box with the resistor is one of those gimmick add so much horsepower unit's. Take it off, throw it in the trash. If the fuel pressure was raising like you said than the pump is fine. The car might have the wrong regulator, with the wrong raising ratio. I'd be willing to bet that you are missing the a part called 'the missing link'. Is is a part that has a check valve in it to make it so that there is no boost pressure on the map sensor. You have to have it or else it will cut out under boost. Here is a link for it. Synapse Missing Link - THMotorsports - Lowest Price Parts HKS Exhaust Apexi World Sport Koni Seibon Carbon Fiber ACT Exedy Clutch Skunk2

There are also other fuel setups out there such as the portfueler that don't have to be 100 percent custom tuned like the megasquirt ( you will not be able to tune it or even get your car to start and idle with it unless you are VERY fermilliar with tuning). Also your system doesn't have to hold pressure for minutes. 30 seconds is perfectly fine BECAUSE air is gonna leak past the rings, and possible slowly past the valves. Just as long as there aren't any noticable leaks, you will be fine. Make sure that it will hold 20 psi. Last but not least, QUIT driving it like this, you are going to end up with melted pistons if it is lean, or fuel in the oil if it is rich, which will destroy your bearings. I'd highly reccomend finding a member on this board that experienced and local to you to look everything over.

 

[wolfie359]

Well bryanwheat "Proven Member", my narrow band will have to work for now. If I had the cash flow to go buy a port fueler kit and a wideband O2 kit, I probably wouldn't be having any troubles with my car, I would just THROW parts at it until it worked... If I had gas in my oil, I'm sure I would know that... If I were running so lean it was going to melt my pistons, I'm sure I would know that too. Yes, I drive this car daily, no I'm not running the pedal to its "cut out" point, its called driving nicely... I have 2 other people helping me look into this car trying to figure things out, who come over quite frequently, had you actually read all the posts here, you may have known that.

This Synapse Missing Link does the same general things that my Electronic Map Clamp does. After reading about it, it looks like a superior idea, but I'm not going to jump to it right away unless I hear otherwise from someone else who has actually used one. I haven't tried to run my car without the map clamp in there, yet...

I'm going to go swap out my O2 with one i've got laying around, see if that fixes my "Lean Gauge" problem. Question, what is the STOCK boost on a 4g63?

So... I just did something interesting... Apparently my O2 sensor I had laying in the garage was bad, wasn't getting ANY reading from it. But... I figured I would see what happens if I disabled my "Map Clamp" so I did, put it back to the stock harness like its supposed to... My pedal issue is GONE. Tested 5-10psi boost, NO PROBLEM! start pushing 12-14psi and I was getting knock, never had that on a fuel injected car before . So I'm finally closing out this thread and getting into a new one, y'all can look for it in the 420a bolt on section.

Thanks for everyones help!

 

[bryanwheat]

The narrowband guage isn't going to do anything for you, you will have NO IDEA what the fuel ratio actually is, it is really worthless to have. I am glad that removing that part worked for you. I would install the missing link also. Please be appreciative when people with a 10+ years of experience try and help you.

 

[wolfie359]

The narrowband guage isn't going to do anything for you, you will have NO IDEA what the fuel ratio actually is, it is really worthless to have. I am glad that removing that part worked for you. I would install the missing link also. Please be appreciative when people with a 10+ years of experience try and help you.

Your original reply was a bit too "smart ass kid" sounding for me, and undermining to some of the other quite intelligent people who responded here, which is why I responded the way I did. If it wasn't meant that was I apologize for the misinterpretation. I have been a mechanic for many years, but I haven't worked with performance 4 cylinder engines that require a TON of electronics to make them work. The only high performance engines I've worked with are race bikes and older carb V8's.

I'll be ordering one of those missing link's. Thank you for the suggestion. I also want to get a vacuum center, might help with the mess of lines all over the place. Know where to get something like that?