To holset or not to holset?

[stace]

Ok, I have a 1g tsi awd. I'm rebiulding it for th most part, head job right now.

I just got laid off and with my spare time I just want to get the car on the road.(safteid and etested)

I have a 255wally, afpr, and a hks safr, and fmic... And a holset hy-35!

I know with that, I can run high fuel pressure and max out the stock injectors and the 14b..but my 14b has a crack in the outside of the exhust housing. wg hole is fine, its just around the o2 side of the wheel housing. It apparently ran fine before I got it..but a crack is a crack..

I ended up with a hy-35 for dirt cheap in great shape(yes Ive read the millions of holset posts)

Could I run the holset with the stock wg actuator at 11psi or whatever, with the 225,afpr, and the safr, and worry about injectors and management and high boost later , or should I just run the cracked 14b ?

And I have the hy-35 bolted to the block already with an adapter I fabbed up in my spare time..It clears the waterpipe, motor mount, block, and I replaced the rad sapport/crossmember to move my rad ahead like 4 inches.(lots of spare time)

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[GsXdSmKingGsX]

why would you run a cracked anything?

 

[GRAVEDIGGER]

Holset = more air... therefore you will need more fuel. I don't think the 450s are gonna cut it. If you really want to just "get the car on the road" then stick with the 14b.

 

[stace]

Well here is a pic of where the crack is on my 14b. I assume it cant be all that bad , cause I have 2 14b's and they both have the same crack.

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So you think I can run this cracked turbo, or should I run low boost with the holset?

I want to run the holset, cause If I run the 14b i will have to redo my exaust again when I install te holset. \But if the holset is just goin to be a head ache with my senario(255wally, upgraded fuel lines and such and the afpr set at a higher fuel pressure and tuned with the afr)...then I guess I will have to run the 14b.

what ya think?

 

[blacksheep86]

I thought someone in the Holset part 5 was running on stock injectors but wasn't boosting more than 5psi or not going over 4000rpms.

 

[knochgoon24]

The stock wastegate on the holset isn't going to be 11psi.

 

[stace]

No, the stock talon wastegate at 11psi or whatever..

I heard of people running the stock wg on a holset, but I cant figure out the flow rate on a holset hy, at 11psi on a 2.0 engine?, but I dont think it would much more flow then a 14b at 20psi..mabye I'm wrong, I only really ever played with t3's on saturn 1.9l's ..easy map calcs.

 

[Zenja]

You should be fine with the holset, just keep the boost set low. It's not going to flow much more than a 14b at low boost. If you're very worried or see signs of knock then just avoid laying on it and hitting full boost. It's no problem getting around going easy on it until you can upgrade more stuff.

 

[dsm-onster]

The holset wastegate hole/flapper may not be large enough to keep boost down. You could have creap. And 450s with a creaping hy35 is not a good thing .

 

[stace]

I'm seriously thinkin about selling the hy, and the mounting adapter, and just using the money to get the 20psi 14b project going.

 

[UGOT8UP]

Why not just keep the Holeset on there and wire the waste-gate open on it untill you get them injectors. that way you dont have to redo what you have already done...Granted it wont be much fun to drive now but it will get you back on the road again!!!

 

[stace]

ya no fun atall but then I might aswell just not put it on the road untill i get the rest of the mods..



I see your point tho, It would be close enough to stock to make sure ev3rything on the car is going too run right. since I'm putting a pile of scrap parts together and trying to get it to run . then thro in the begger injectors and managment latter(###### burn some eproms or megasquirt)

 

[toofast82]

i've been very curious about the HY-35 considering it has a smaller turbine than the hx35. It sucks they dont sell a bolt on housing for it but the stock housing is 9cm i believe which is .63ar(i think). It should have very good spool/power if the turbine can keep up with the compressor in flow. But yeah, be very afraid of boost creep with the 450cc. The stock mitsu actuator will take some modding but its been done. Arent the holset wastegate flappers pretty small allowing them to hold 30+psi with no problems? Have you fabbed up a vband downpipe for it yet, any pics?

 

[stace]

The hy dosent require q vband donepipe, it has a t3 type bolt pattern, which I will just fab my own flange and downpipe. 2 1/2 " off the flange but i'll weld on 3 "

the air outlet from the compressor WAS a vband but the guy before me ground the v band off so i am stuck with a sillicone coupler.

I personally dont agree with most of the 9cm to .63 ar conversions, they dont compute in my head, sure a 9 cm2 housing is 1 cm2 more then a 8cm evo housing but the wheel is twice as big and heavier. and think the .63 ar of a t3 is much smaller then my socalled .58ar holset housing. I go by the maps and for 350hp this turbo should preform preaty well on dsm

I was able to mount the holset reverse and face the inlet to thhe driver side..bit the intake HAD to be routed out the fender, the alternater had to be moved to the back of the engine, but with a t3 header/manifold or plane flat adapter like i used it fit fine.

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[talon20g]

Why would you mount it on backwards? It fits just fine the right way.

 

[dsm-onster]

The hy dosent require q vband donepipe, it has a t3 type bolt pattern, which I will just fab my own flange and downpipe. 2 1/2 " off the flange but i'll weld on 3 "

the air outlet from the compressor WAS a vband but the guy before me ground the v band off so i am stuck with a sillicone coupler.

I personally dont agree with most of the 9cm to .63 ar conversions, they dont compute in my head, sure a 9 cm2 housing is 1 cm2 more then a 8cm evo housing but the wheel is twice as big and heavier. and think the .63 ar of a t3 is much smaller then my socalled .58ar holset housing. I go by the maps and for 350hp this turbo should preform preaty well on dsm

I was able to mount the holset reverse and face the inlet to thhe driver side..bit the intake HAD to be routed out the fender, the alternater had to be moved to the back of the engine, but with a t3 header/manifold or plane flat adapter like i used it fit fine.[/IMG]

The bolt pattern may be a garrett style but the bolt spacing is probably different from a t3 outlet. Just a word of caution. I think you can get holset outlet flanges from ebay. Don't give up on this. You'll have a VERY fast spooling turbo that should be able to net over 400whp with the right support. Fun now and plenty of "growing room".

I think you will have good results with a hy35. Just port the wastegate hole and tach on a larger flapper. You may even get away with using the holset actuator, but I doubt it. The stock 14b/16g actuator is so weak it will blow open at a point soon after 20 psi on a stock longblock with the stock wastegate diameter. I don't know what you're results with the 14b/16g actuator with a ported hole will be, but you won't over boost that's for sure.

Remember that turbine housing/wheel performance ahs nothing to do with a compressor map at all and compressor performance is independent of turbine performance; there is no change on the compressor map when a turbine variable is changed.

The 9cm^2 turbine housing has about the same area at the same points on the scroll as the .63 a/r garrett turbine housing. The area is all that's important not he radius or the gauge of the turbine housing walls. The 12cm^2 twinscroll hx35 turbine housing has about the same area at th same points on each individual scroll as the 6cm^2 14b turbine housing, based on my obsevations and rudimentary measurement.

 

[stace]

no the hy wont fit at all, the normal way, the compressor may fit, but the exaust housing dosent clear the block. Thats why in the first pic i used a 2 flange adapter which I made myself(4 times before I got it right). It angles the HY out away from the block and moves the compressor further from the water pipe.

I have the original DP from the holset, I know its not a t3 but its like a t3 style. I'll copy that and make one to fit my situation.


The crappy part of this whole thing is with my TurboSaturn, I made my own log manifold and downpipe. With the talon, I dont have the skills to biuld a better manifold then the stock.....I tried and blew big holes, and warped my head flange...takes all the fun out of it when it still looks stock.

I know maps are for compressor flow, but I plotted the hy-35 map, cause the hx-35 which is very close to the hy-35 in compressor size, has a much differant map..

if it is the right map..it made sense for the size of the turbo, but really, since I have not seen anyone actaully run a HY on a 4g63, I can only asume it will act like a hx35 but spool way quiker.. it will be an learning experiance.

The housing is bigger then a .63 ar garrett..
the exaust wheel is way bigger then a garret t3 series..

 

[dsm-onster]

The turbine housing has a larger radius but about the same size area. I've compared both. Area determines flow. Radius determins how big of a wheel can fit in the housing.

The hy35 has a smaller turbine wheel than the hx35 and the same compressor wheel as the later hx35. The hx35 turbine wheel is between the size of a t31 (t3 stage 3) and a t350 (t3 stage 5). The hy35 has a turbine wheel no larger than the t31 wheel. Of course, it likely flows about the same or better because it has more advanced aero tech than the WWII garrett T3 wheels.

Here is the hy35 map graphed by morphius based on the imperical flow data a cummins engineer gave to him:

Here is the compressor map given to another person when they requested a map for their later hx35 (read through this thread to see):

As you can see in the second graph, those bottem numbers are the same mass perameter and the top numbers are in lb/min. Using that information we can have a conversion factor for the first graph: 10lb/min / 13 or 0.77. So, multiply the x-axis number on the first graph by 0.77 to convert to lb/min. Now, this conversion factor will be off a little, because we do not know the pressure and temperature of the test to generate the data plotted in the first graph. The data looks to be uncorrected data; thus VERY similar rpm numbers to the uncorrected rpm numbers (in perenthesis) of the second graph. Notice the similar surge line, peak PR, and choke line. And the cummins engineer gave Morphius the same compressor number, the 7765AX, for the hy35 in the first graph as what is in the title of the later hx35 compressor map given to the hybrid z owner, the second graph. Add that to the fact that the cummins engineer told Mophius that the hx35 and hy35 share the same compressor stage.

The hx30e, hy35, hx35 nomenclature is like saying t04e. Morphius doesn't know for which hx35 he got the data. So we don't know which compressor is shown in green. Thankfully Morphius did all this leg work and showed the enthusiasme to get this started, or we wouldn't know of this option or enough information to make a good selection for our goal.

I am VERY excited to see your results!!!! Be sure to post in the holsets results thread.

A little trick I suspect will work. You have a walbro 255. You can bump up the base fuel pressure to 60psi. The walbro can handle that pressure and flow enough. The injector flow will be about 530cc too. So you will have enough to run 300+whp just fine. You will definately need a maf upgrade to remotely merrit the use of this turbo. After all the 14b can flow enough to overrun the 1g maf, even hacked. I'm not very familiar with the HKS S-AFR. But for the little fuel control that it offers, you can just swap in a 2g maf and it should be enough correction with that fuel controller and the 530cc flow to have the setup run just fine. The 2g maf reads about 20% lower than the 1g maf for the same airflow. It also doesn't overrun until after 2700hz or about 615cfm, which is about at the flow limit of an evo3 16g (about 42lb/min). What fuel flow and control you have with a 2g maf would suffice as a decent 300-350whp setup. And, with the suspected fast spool of the hy35 and stock longblock, you will have a great little build.

So why did you decide to have the turbo face the other direction?

 

[stace]

I have seen those graphs, the map I used, I cant find at the moment, I have it printed out, cause I did the math with a girl at work who helped me with the equasions.

But i have played with the first graph, and there is one similar to the hy on squirll performmance..which is preatty close at ploting maps(worked pretty good with the turbosaturn) Squirrel Performance - Turbo Calculator Version 4 But it couldnt figure out boost pressures in the settings so I dont know how accurate it was.

I first mounted thhe turbo the other way cause it wouldnt fit the right way, with the td05h to t3 adapter I made. so I mountted it the other way annd it fit, but I had to replaace the alt and so on, plus at the time I had not moved the rad ahead and thatt led to more complications for the IC piping. so I welded a peac e of pipe to the adapter, and then welded a t3 flange to the pipe..it didnt fit so I cut and started again, took 4 trys to get it to clear everything and now I can use the (saturn) alt in stock location and I have room for the intake. Althou I'll probably rout it to where the old IC was.

As for injectors, I was thinkin about pickin up some evo 560's and raising fuel pressure to 60psi or so and that should be enough fuel..I am seeing bigger injectors go for cheaper but donot know if I trust them.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Do not raise your base fuel pressure to 60 psi. Keep it at stock, and use a SAFC, or dsmlink or something of that nature to tune the car with.

James

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes you absolutely can raise pressure to 60psi. The car idles just like stock minus the POSSIBLILTY of higher deadtime affects. Both my cars and my brothers 2g showed no signs of deadtime issues needing to be tuned out (adjusting idle rpm compesation). And the walbro 255 can handle this pressure with over 20psi of boost and still flow enough to meet the demands of 850s at 100% IDC. . . Of course with it rewired. So he would be just fine with 530cc of flow without a rewired 255 pump.

The S-AFR should have enough adjustment to tune the car well if you have 530cc injector flow with the 2g maf. The question is, does the S-AFR work with a hertzian output that the DSM mafs deliver? And you must have a logger to tune at all. No one here will recommend any upgrading without knowing your knock count and injector duty cycle.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Yes you absolutely can raise pressure to 60psi. The car idles just like stock minus the POSSIBLILTY of higher deadtime affects. Both my cars and my brothers 2g showed no signs of deadtime issues needing to be tuned out (adjusting idle rpm compesation). And the walbro 255 can handle this pressure with over 20psi of boost and still flow enough to meet the demands of 850s at 100% IDC. . . OF course with it rewired.

The S-AFR should have enough adjustment to tune the car well if you have 530cc injector flow with the 2g maf.

And what is the reasoning behind raising the BFP to 60 psi.

James

 

[dsm-onster]

450s flow 530cc at 60psi base fuel pressure. An upgrade to a used 2g maf would be all he needs to get a good 300+whp setup going. This would push fuel cut back about 20% and give him the room he needs for well over 300whp. The S-AFR would be used to adjust for minor differences between the 1g and 2g maf transfer funtions that are not re-scaled by using the higher injector flow: used to get a better tune.

 

[stace]

I imagine dsmonstar is suggesting higher FP so i can utilize my 450's, cause I cant afford bigger injectors, and want to set up my holset for now...I can proabbably pic up somew 560's tho.

The hafr can work with the hurtz system o the dsms, and works like the apexi, but it has no lows/highs, it just alters ther air flow rate. Aftermarket Installation Documents GReddy HKS APEXi

It worked fine on the density based saturn system and has throttle response and eids.

I was planning on setting up a pocket logger when the car is running,

But seriously, Im thinking about slapping the cracked 14b on and just concintrating on getting the car to run and getting the logger to work first. by then hopefully i'll be back to work and beable to save up for some bigger injectors and a eprom set-up.

 

[dsm-onster]

This would be your best bet. You don't even need the eprom for up to 650cc injectors just a decent logging solution and a fuel controler that can control up to that size.

Scanmaster- no laptop needed. Has an output for a palm or laptop (internal interface), so no special cable circuitry needed
Tunerstein- laptop or palm required along with cable interface.

I've had great success with either of the above loggers.

I prefer something you can save on a computer for future reference and/or uploading here so we can see and help critique. But I wanted to see my knock count and %IDC easily. So I mounted my scanmaster on the stearing colume with it feeding into my laptop and used the tunerstein software(free) to record the data. I got a live knock count and %IDC reading with the scanmaster; and was able to record enough data to analyze what was happening through out the rpm range after the car was stopped with the tunerstein logs on the laptop. Tunerstein seams to work fine for me in vista.

The above way of datalogging a 1g is absolutely not neccesary. If you have a laptop or palm then the most cost effective route is tunerstein or MMCD directly. No need for the $260 scanmaster as an interface.

That SAFR information you linked is more complete than my link. You can adjust + or - 50% just like an safc. A set of 650s will be a safe maximum before you run into too much timing advance from fooling the computer. Much more affordable. I would slightly retard base timing for 650s if you want to run pumpgas and a fuel controler like this. I've had good results with this as the 1g timing map is a bit too aggressive from the factory.