This summer

[bullettdsm]

Long time no see. I'm glad you are keeping the DSM.

Yup, I remember Murray. good to see you back.

Seems well enough to me the build, assuming you do the cams, mentioned below..

Yup. Save yourself some money and forgo the rods and Arps. Not necessary. Stocker rods are strong like bull. You might want to replace the rod bolts though. That's where i have seen problems.

As for the Arps, I'm still running my 12.5 comp engine on the stocker bolts (new of course).

Hmm.. You will find posts here, and threads on 2gnt about CImotorsports. Every once and a while have a problem shipping things on time, but they are a good company..

I do not buy from CI for a reason.

When should I install MSnS? Completely up to you. Though IMO, I would install it either before you install the new engine. This way, you will have an opportunity to familiarize yourself with basic MS tuning, and can test your tuning abilities on an engine you will be rebuilding anyways. No reason to risk an expensive new rebuild to novice tuning. .

Bah, I agree with you too much

I would do it at the same time, to save some money and time. Airflow is where you will gain your power.

Consider upgrading your valve springs, to go with those new camshafts, for peace of mind. I believe Mark was running Crower 2's on the factory springs with no issue, though, and while I never asked him, I think he only did that to prove a point.

Stockers on the Crower 2's. I did upgrade with the Crower 3's. Necessary. And yes I did it to prove a point

Likely just surfacing the head, for machine work. You listed about everything involved in a basic head build.
Porting and blending can be quite expensive, and may not be a justifiable expense in your case. The 420a head flows amazing well as is. If you do opt for headwork, I wouldn't go further than the most basic port job.

Oh wait, You meant cutting the valve seat.

I would like to see you do a little port work. BUT only from a qualified technician. Our heads do leave a bit to be worked on for more top end performance. With MSnS you have the ability to use it. But you need to know what you are doing. With your set-up reversion may come into play. This needs to be allowed for.

Also, you may want to go with the 5 angle valve job. I'm liking that more and more for our engines NA.

MB

Sorry if this post is a little sloppy or disjointed. Under the weather and doing doubles at work.......

 

[murray1]

Thanks Locke and Mark.

Ok from your responses I have a couple more questions.

Mark you said that I could leave the rods and arps out.

1)Are you talking about head bolts and main studs?

2)I would definitely be thinking about going nitrous in the future(probably after a year), probably 75 or 100 shot(pretty sure that is fine with the built 10.5:1 engine). Would using the stock rods still be good for this or would it be better just to fork out the $400 to get the eagle rods which will be more then enough?

3)Where would you guys recommend purchasing these parts if CIM is questionable? CIM and Howell are the two best online stores(that I know of) to look around on but I have read that Howell can take forever to ship parts.

4)What parts would I need for the head and which ones can I reuse etc? Here is list of different parts from CIM, if I do need to replace them would any of these parts below be bad choices?

Valves: PEP STD Size Valve Set (sounds like oversize would be pointless and expensive)
Valve Springs: Crower (don't figure I need the titanium ones for what I would be doing)
Lifters: SBI (there are BLE solid but again I don't think I would need them)
Valve Seals: Felpro
Valve Guides: SBI
Valve Locks: SBI Lock Set
Cams: Crower Stage 2 Set (not totally sure about this, will look into cams more)

These parts would run me just over a $1000, again I have no idea what machining would cost.

As far as porting and that stuff I would have to look around and see if I could find someone around here that would do it for a reasonable price and that I think I could trust to do a good job.

I was planning on either a 3 or 5 grind valve job, depends on the price difference.

You guys are great, once I get a plan set and if I see that I have enough money for it I am going to start buying parts so that I have to do it hard to talk yourself out of it when you have 3 grand worth of parts laying around.

Edit: Also I was just thinking about compression, I would get 10.5 pistons but how much difference does a 0.020 or 0.040 have on the compression? And is 10.5 as high as I would want to go or would it be worth it to look into milling the head for a little higher, I want this to be a DD so I was thinking 10.5 - 11 would be plenty, is that right?

 

[murray1]

Ok did some more research and changed a few things. I don't plan on going turbo or nitrous anymore. Just aiming for 140-150whp, should be a nice fun DD especially considering I like the car right now and it is probably only making ~100-110.

Bottom End

Connecting Rods: No Rods(use stock as mark suggested)
Pistons: JE 10.5:1 .020 #242870
Oil Pump: Melling Oil Pump
Rod Bearings: Clevite .020mm o/s #CB-1635P-.020
Main Bearings: Clevite 96-UP .020 o/s #MS-2028P-.020
Water Pump: Airtex Water Pump #AW7150
Timing Components: Tensioner, Belt & Bearings
Head Bolts: OEM Head Bolts #ES72166
Main Studs: No Main Studs(they only offer none or arp)
Head Gasket: Cometic MLS .020 #C5497-040
Gasket Kit: Felpro Complete Gasket Kit

Head

(unsure as to what I need here, I do know springs and cams for sure though)
Valves: No Thanks
Valve Springs: Crower
Lifters: No Thanks
Valve Seals: No Thanks
Valve Guides: No Thanks
Valve Locks: No Thanks
Cams: Crower Stage 2 Set

Megasquirt, Bolt ons, Clutch, Machining etc.

Here are some questions I have(some are same as above post)

1)Is there any point in me getting a high volume oil pump?

2)Will I need to buy OEM main studs? I know I need new head bolts but unsure about main studs especially since most places only offer ARP or none.

3)Is that all I need I need to replace for the head? I am thinking I should get valves to, I have no idea about the other parts though.

4)How does having a .020 or .040 head gasket affect compression and what compression should I be aiming for to maximize power yet keep it as a good DD. Somewhere around 11:1?

 

[bullettdsm]

Ok did some more research and changed a few things. I don't plan on going turbo or nitrous anymore. Just aiming for 140-150whp, should be a nice fun DD especially considering I like the car right now and it is probably only making ~100-110.

Bottom End

Connecting Rods: No Rods(use stock as mark suggested)
Pistons: JE 10.5:1 .020 #242870
Oil Pump: Melling Oil Pump
Rod Bearings: Clevite .020mm o/s #CB-1635P-.020
Main Bearings: Clevite 96-UP .020 o/s #MS-2028P-.020
Water Pump: Airtex Water Pump #AW7150
Timing Components: Tensioner, Belt & Bearings
Head Bolts: OEM Head Bolts #ES72166
Main Studs: No Main Studs(they only offer none or arp)
Head Gasket: Cometic MLS .020 #C5497-040
Gasket Kit: Felpro Complete Gasket Kit

Head

(unsure as to what I need here, I do know springs and cams for sure though)
Valves: No Thanks
Valve Springs: Crower
Lifters: No Thanks
Valve Seals: No Thanks
Valve Guides: No Thanks
Valve Locks: No Thanks
Cams: Crower Stage 2 Set

Megasquirt, Bolt ons, Clutch, Machining etc.

Here are some questions I have(some are same as above post)

1)Is there any point in me getting a high volume oil pump?

2)Will I need to buy OEM main studs? I know I need new head bolts but unsure about main studs especially since most places only offer ARP or none.

3)Is that all I need I need to replace for the head? I am thinking I should get valves to, I have no idea about the other parts though.

4)How does having a .020 or .040 head gasket affect compression and what compression should I be aiming for to maximize power yet keep it as a good DD. Somewhere around 11:1?

Short on time before work, but I'll go quick.

No need for high volume pump.

I haven't had a problem with stocker main studs. Just have your machine shop check them for stretching.

You will need the valve seals. Probably just get a head set. They will come with the valve seals and al the other seals you want. Unfortunately, I haven't found one that comes without the Head gasket (oh wait, I see you are getting a full gasket kit). Also, I always replace my valves with stainless steel. valves. Regardless, should replace valves at this point. Get the Crower springs. I haven't heard of them breaking, but I have seen incidences of the Crane's breaking.

Don't worry about .020 or .040.

You'll do fine at 10.5 comp. I shaved my head down .020 to get around 10.9 comp. The comp is not as important as the head flow.

MB

 

[murray1]

Thanks again.

Valves: PEP STD Size Valve Set
Valve Springs: Crower
Lifters: No Thanks
Valve Seals: Felpro
Valve Guides: No Thanks
Valve Locks: No Thanks
Cams: Crower Stage 2 Set

I added valve seals and valves to the list. The gasket set did not seem to come with valve seals(it did not list parts and I didn't notice any in the picture). I will have to check by phone when I order to make sure.

Another question

Is there any point in ordering a Cometic head gasket? The Felpro gasket set comes with a Felpro MLS head gasket and from searching it sounds like the people that have used it have had no trouble.

 

[murray1]

Dang I just found some of the threads about CIM that you guys had mentioned. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[bullettdsm]

The Felpro gasket set comes with a Felpro MLS head gasket and from searching it sounds like the people that have used it have had no trouble.

True dat

MB

 

[murray1]

I think I have the motor figure out now but I have a question about MS.

I have been reading and reading and giving myself a headache and am totally confused right now.

To run MSnS does it matter if you have V2.2 or V3.0 board? It kind of sounds to me like I would need V3.0 but I can't find some place that states this to be true or not.

If either one can run it would V2.2 be good for my plans above?

Edit:Hmm I think I found an exhaust, brand new Tsudo Header and N1 exhaust shipped to Canada for $320(ebay user nissangtrpower if anyone is interested). You can't argue with that can you?

I have tried to look up info on the tsudo header and there is very little information but none of it seems bad, if you guys know anything please let me know in the next couple days.

 

[dr1665]

Is there any point in ordering a Cometic head gasket? The Felpro gasket set comes with a Felpro MLS head gasket and from searching it sounds like the people that have used it have had no trouble.

YES! I finally get to answer a question before Mark and Locke have already come in and said what I said! The whistles go whoo-WOO!

(ahem)

Skip the Cometic. People love them or hate them. Doesn't seem to be any middle ground. Additionally, if you're not adding forced induction of any kind, you will be fine with the MLS.

I would also agree that you probably aren't going to need the forged rods either. Now, you could save some more money by having the head milled down further to raise compression like Mark did, but I think even he would agree that changing out the pistons is the ideal way to adjust CR. I would just be sure to have your local machine shop balance the rotating assembly for you. Cams and headwork can shift the powerband well beyond the stock redline (making MSnS a necessity), so having your internals balanced to handle those speeds is a good idea.

When it comes to some of the rest of the build stuff you have listed, no need to go for all the name brand shit, imo. Pick up your bearings at Autozone or Napa. Get the oil pump there too for all I care. People talk about the "Melling oil pump" like there are so many other brands. Aside from the pistons, you should be able to get most of what you need from Parts Dinosaur.com and good luck finding *any* negative threads about Bruce Roller.

I prefer Venolia pistons, myself, but have access to get a pretty good price on new JEs at work, if you're interested.

Keep us posted, man.

PS - White 97 2GNT Talons just love 10.5CR, cams, and headwork.
Crazy azDave video from back in the day.

 

[bullettdsm]

I think I have the motor figure out now but I have a question about MS.

I have been reading and reading and giving myself a headache and am totally confused right now. .

Good, now keep reading. It'll start to make sense

To run MSnS does it matter if you have V2.2 or V3.0 board? It kind of sounds to me like I would need V3.0 but I can't find some place that states this to be true or not..

Wait for Paul or Terry to come on. I'm not sure what version Paul is using.

YES! I finally get to answer a question before Mark and Locke have already come in and said what I said! The whistles go whoo-WOO!

(ahem)

Skip the Cometic. People love them or hate them. Doesn't seem to be any middle ground. Additionally, if you're not adding forced induction of any kind, you will be fine with the MLS.

See post #32

And I totally agree with using Bruce. I use him all the time.

In addition, you suck for not telling about the JE's 3 months ago . How was I supposed to know? I thought you sold rice kits

MB

 

[murray1]

I was just informed that Mark believes his DD is the second fastest all motor DSM on here behind his project car.

As I told him, if I do my build which I am around 75-80% set on doing now then I plan on giving him a run for his money for the second fastest all motor DSM . I am not sure what that is worth but someone has to give this guy some incentive to do what no one else tries.

Keep up the good work Mark.

Edit: Oh yeah I was wondering for us all motor with MS do we require a high volume fuel pump like MS says it needs? I am pretty sure I would still need a regulator but running stock injectors and such I was wondering if the fuel pump upgrade was necessary its not like I would even be pushing 200 hp .