Supercharger? [Merged 11-8] NOT electric superchargers

[MNGSX]

Not necessarily true.



Not necessarily true either.

You need to make the differentiation between a positive displacement vs a centrifugal supercharger before you can qualify those statements. A roots type supercharger moves a certain CFM of air at a certain RPM. It is fixed. It will be set-up such that it always moves more air than the engine can consume, hence it will make boost. If the engine's pumping losses decrease with RPM, then boost will tend to drop with a positive displacement supercharger, as is usually the case.

A centrifugal supercharger is more like a turbocharger in the way it imparts energy to the air, except that it is powered by the engine via a belt/gear drive. There will be less lag compared to a turbocharger, but it will not be as responsive as a roots type blower.

Suicidal2af, your statement isn't true. You can always size your AR such that you have acceptable pressure drops at higher flows rates. The problem is the routing and the packaging.

After reading through the replies on this thread, there are many posters with misconceptions on supercharging and even turbocharging. I would suggest, Wasian, that you do your own research...

The only way I'll ever bolt a supercharger to a is if there is a turbo on it already.
With twincharging you could run a turbo big enough for a supra. The bolting a turbo to a supercharged 2.0 is like doing a 3.0 six.


I saw a twincharged V6 swaped into a MR2 in a EMS book I bought..... It is tight...

Other than that you can get near supercharger low end and boost untlil redline with a small a/r turbine housing and a ball bearing center cartridge.. Other options include the FP titanium shaft Evo16g... For a single power adder the efficiency of a well matched turbo system is impossible to beat.

 

[Mackzero]

Alright, swapping the motor for a 4g63 is right up there with the supercharger, they are both equally retarded ideas. You should know that!

Oh I know, I would just sell the car and buy an AWD.

FYI there is not really any wait time for the supercharger to build boost, I had a HEAVILY modded Corrado G60 before this that was extremely fast. It was insane to drive on the street, you stomped it to the floor and it changed lanes immediately. I sold it cause the tuner that did it (BBM) f'd me and the car over. My current car would've destroyed it in a race, but the Lysholm charger I had was very fun on that car. 23 psi.

 

[gamingguru]

A supercharger will take time to build boost, it just may vary depending on what type you have. A postive displacement twin screw "roots" blower can idle at 13-15 psi on a V8, while a vortech centriphicial(sp) supercharger will have a boost curve that starts around 2psi and gradualy rises to a max of 15psi boost until redline.

 

[Jehu]

Acceptable? When you're looking at a car like a rail, *no* backpressure is acceptable. No restriction will be good. It will slow you down. And if you manage an A/R large enough to not pose a big restriction, it'll spool as you are deploying your chute, if even then.

What's your basis for saying that? Do you have any specific reasoning as it applies to rail cars? Sure, a restriction will slow the car down, but so does a 900hp draw from a supercharger! A supercharger is also easier to implement thanks to the carb style hemi engines. It's not as easy getting turbochargers to work with carbs.

This is what I found on the topic...

"In the early 80's, the domestic performance turbo guru, Gale Banks tried to develop a turbocharged Top Fuel Dragster. Even with only 20% nitromethane (a 90%+ mixture of this powerful, nearly explosive oxidizer was typical at the time for top fuel racers) in the fuel, the motor developed so much explosive power that the drivetrains at that time could not contain the power produced, making the car undriveable, unreliable and uncompetitive. The team lacked the money to fully develop the concept and soon the change fearing NHRA banned turbochargers from Top Fuel before a real well funded turbocharged team could come upon the scene."

Now, granted, the slow burning nitromethane might cause problems with material selections in the turbine/housings etc, but nothing that can't be solved with some money .

Besides, before the regulatory boards put a clamp on the fun, F1 engines were making 1500hp from 1.5L. Scale that up to the 8.9L in a typical dragster and you're making 8900HP w/o the parasitic drag! Point is, any engine can be set-up to work with a turbocharger, and trading off parasitic drag for a little more exhaust restriction usually works in your favour.

 

[T_Eclipse]

That equates to good low end torque which is good for a big displacement motor, this is why SC are seen on domestics.


The belt the turns the SC from the crank also equates to a parasitic loss of power because its added force that needs to be turned. This equates to less power than a turbo charger in the higher rpms.


Basically for a street application in an import, the better decision is a turbo charger.


There is or was an article on www.hondaswap.com (some of the mods got in a tiff and I think it may be deleted now) that explained the two kinds of superchargers available in comparison with a turbo charger. The turbo charger was 'proven' to be more efficient and a better application.

*Putting on anti-flame suit and I'm not taking it off until this thread is overwith *
Ok I'm going to ask the question. (Damn noobs) What does displacement mean? And why do you see the SC only on the domestics? I'm going to take a stab in the dark and just assume the big displacement means that the motor's are bigger than our 4 bangers. Even so, why don't Nissan or Porshe put SC's on the Skyline or the 911 which I know both cars have bigger engines than my . Yes, I know they're imports but does that mean that only domestic cars use SC's and imports use turbo's?

Taking my ,noobage, one step further. Would a 1967 Shelby Mustang GT500 with a supercharger kill a 911 turbocharged or a Skyline turbo? Why or why not? Is this even a good comparison?

One more thing, I know someone who is going to try to supercharge a Scion tC. Good Idea or bad idea.

 

[T_Eclipse]

^^^Anyone?

 

[punishercb]

You can or soon will be able to order a Scion tC with a supercharger straight from the factory. It makes somewhere around 200hp. I read that in Motor Trend, it's probably meant to compete with the new redlines and cobalt ss.

 

[saw wave analog]

 

[Defiant]

*Putting on anti-flame suit and I'm not taking it off until this thread is overwith *
Ok I'm going to ask the question. (Damn noobs) What does displacement mean?

The combined swept volume of all cylinders.

And why do you see the SC only on the domestics?

Toyota had a supercharger on the last versions of the squared MR-2, and VW had a supercharged Corrado that I can think of off the top of my head.

I'm going to take a stab in the dark and just assume the big displacement means that the motor's are bigger than our 4 bangers.

Mm, you are the sharp one. Yes, a 351 cubic-inch engine is "bigger" than a DSM's 120 ci motor. Which makes the accomplishments of DSMs all that much more impressive.

Even so, why don't Nissan or Porshe put SC's on the Skyline or the 911 which I know both cars have bigger engines than my . Yes, I know they're imports but does that mean that only domestic cars use SC's and imports use turbo's?

Turbos are easier to engineer onto an engine. You only need to do some piping, and you have much greater flexibility in installing than you do with a supercharger which must be belt-driven. And no, you never heard of an electric supercharger. Put the very idea completely our of your already-redlined consciousness.
To add to your comprehension, a turbocharger is a supercharger, but it's a turbo-supercharger in being driven by a turbine placed in the exhaust stream. And there's more- the Vortech superchargers are also turbines, but driven by mechanical (belts) means.

Taking my ,noobage, one step further. Would a 1967 Shelby Mustang GT500 with a supercharger kill a 911 turbocharged or a Skyline turbo? Why or why not? Is this even a good comparison?

Ah. So now, besides bumping your post, you're bench racing? Goodie. Time for the Martin-Baker.

One more thing, I know someone who is going to try to supercharge a Scion tC. Good Idea or bad idea.

Expensive idea, but probably not condemned by any church. A better question is why does the Scion exist? Blind people can't drive, and anyone who's seen a Scion wouldn't be stupid enough to buy one. Supercharging it just takes it that many more notches down.

 

[usnsc]

I have a bunch of friends here in good ol' Kentucky that tell me that at the particular elevation we are at, a supercharger is better than a turbo. We aren't talking about supercharging V8s, we are talking about Cavaliers and Focus's. I thought superchargers kinda took power away, to add power. Since they work of a belt. Like the AC? And they tell me that the supercharger is always making boost, and the turbo stops. I tell them that the supercharger cant get max PSI until redline, when I hit max boost at 3,000rpms. I'm not sure if they are right, or if I'm right. I'm not sure the elevation around here, but I guess they assume since we are a little higher than normal, I guess...that it makes the turbo worse??? Is this true? Just kind of curious.

 

[Camaro350]

They are retarded. Boost is boost no matter what elevation it is.

Turbo's do have a slight lag BUT they do not use any power to run. Superchargers are belt driven and do take potential power away. They are saying this because superchargers are probably easier to add to their cars. I think turbo's are better.

 

[tstkl]

turbos create back pressure, superchargers drive off the belt, with a super charger, to increase the boost you have to change pullies and put more weight on the engine,... with turbos, increasing the boost allows more gas to flow, but that is because more gas is flowing, so the turbine must spin faster... also turbos psi can be controlled from inside the car with some mbcs, and all ebc. AND your friends are right, super chargers ARE always on, so when your going to school, there on, when your driving to a friends house, there on, and when your driving at the track, they are on.... do you want to run the same boost for every day driving as you do on the drag strip? turbos put less wear on the engine, so we can turn it up really high, cuz we can always turn it down... a supercharger at 30 psi not only will take a LOT of hp from the engine, it will also blow up your engine if you use it as a daily driver... tell them to have fun at about 7 psi while you can run up to 16 at least with stock fuel, internals, turbo, and everything else...

 

[Defiant]

I have a bunch of friends here in good ol' Kentucky that tell me that at the particular elevation we are at, a supercharger is better than a turbo.

Yeh. Good ol' Kentucky.

Tell them to stick to racing at Chruchill Downs. What they know about engines came out the exhaust of one of the racers there.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

t to increase the boost you have to change pullies and put more weight on the engine,...

How do you put more weight on the engine?

 

[boostedinaz]

turbos create back pressure, superchargers drive off the belt, with a super charger, to increase the boost you have to change pullies and put more weight on the engine,... with turbos, increasing the boost allows more gas to flow, but that is because more gas is flowing, so the turbine must spin faster... also turbos psi can be controlled from inside the car with some mbcs, and all ebc. AND your friends are right, super chargers ARE always on, so when your going to school, there on, when your driving to a friends house, there on, and when your driving at the track, they are on.... do you want to run the same boost for every day driving as you do on the drag strip? turbos put less wear on the engine, so we can turn it up really high, cuz we can always turn it down... a supercharger at 30 psi not only will take a LOT of hp from the engine, it will also blow up your engine if you use it as a daily driver... tell them to have fun at about 7 psi while you can run up to 16 at least with stock fuel, internals, turbo, and everything else...

This is why I hate this debate. More guess and assumptions than actual facts.

Supercharges are not always on. They are always being turned while the car is running, but then so is a turbo. Just like a turbo if you stay out of the gas you wont make boost. Yes, if you start to pull the motor into the upper RPM it will start to make boost on a SC engine, but I know alot of people that can drive all day with out boosting. You also dont always have a set PSI for a SC when you drive around. Just becasue you have you car setup to run 30 PSI doesnt mean that it will make that all the time. As far as what type of FI is harder on the engine they are neck and neck. One is not harder on the motor than the other. This is probably debatable, but that is my opinion.

Nothing is free. A CS has to be turned by the motor, and a turbo adds alot of back pressure. They both take power to make power.

There are also a couple of types of SC. Some will build boost right off the bat and some will make of a power curve like a turbo.

 

[Mackzero]

This has been debated and covered WAY TOO MANY TIMES on the internet. It is simple, tell your buddys to supercharge their cars, and you do a nice turbo setup, and go hand their asses to them. I had over $20K into my last car... Lysholm'd VW Corrado, and it was very fast, but my eclipse would own it over and over and over again. Superchargers are great for daily driving and situations where throttle response is critical, but for most people that just like to go fast on the highway, and back country roads, a good turbo setup will always come out on top.

 

[boostedinaz]

Superchargers are great for daily driving and situations where throttle response is critical, but for most people that just like to go fast on the highway, and back country roads, a good turbo setup will always come out on top.

Again, more incorrect generalizations. A Centrifical SC will build boost similar to a turbo in the fact that they are RPM based. A twinscrew or roots blower will make a ton of power down low right at the tip of the throttle. So a blanket statement like that is misleading and just incorrect.

There are a ton of 03-04 Cobras that I am sure would show anyone what a twinscrew SC can do. I also have a friend that put a hair over 800 to the wheels on 91 PUMP GAS with a ProCharger on a 99 Z28. Those are both great examples as to how a SC can work very well in a number of conditions.

 

[psychlow]

From real world tests that I've come across, turbos have generally been found to be more efficient in terms of boosting.

There have been lots of tests on cars that are not factory boosted. Peruse the Mustang boards, for example. It's been shown a number of times that you can make more power on Stangs with a turbo kit at the same boost level than with a supercharger, accounting nearly equally sized compressor wheels, equal intercooling setups, and equal supporting mods. What's even funnier, is that the turbochargers will put out hotter air at the same pressure, but will still make more power.

Also, turbo kits have shown to put less of a strain on the engine. A few shops have done tuning on supercharged applications as well as turbo applications, and they know that they can run more power on the turbo applications without upgrading the engine internals compared to the supercharged engines. The supercharger adds so much drag to the crankshaft and the other internals that they end up breaking rod bolts and bending rods at the same power level as a perfectly reliable turbo car.

Of course, there will always be exceptions. A prescision-engineered supercharger can be more efficient than a cheap production-mill turbocharger. A properly designed supercharger installation will work better than a junkyard hackjob turbo kit.

Superchargers have their advantages. Cost is usually less, they almost always have a smaller footprint, and you don't need to worry about exhaust routing. For example, try to find turbo kits that fit in the engine bay of an LS1-powered F-body for a decent price. !

 

[98turbo]

Call me crazy, but there's just something about turbo lag that puts a grin on my face....I love when my car is going butt slow and then that turbo spools and my head gets pushed back into my seat.....

 

[tstkl]

Call me crazy, but there's just something about turbo lag that puts a grin on my face....I love when my car is going butt slow and then that turbo spools and my head gets pushed back into my seat.....

me too,....

drivers love it, passangers hate it... ... you should see the looks ive gotten from turbo lag.... PRICELESS...

 

[BlackRaptor]

Hey guys i've been donig a lot of looking around and i wanted to know if there is an advantage going turbo VS super?

It looks like superchargers are a lot easier to install and setup compared to turbo's, is this true? and cost for cost there pretty close to the same.

I haven't heard of many supercharged Eclpises so i'm guessing there is a downside to them.

Thanks for the help.

 

[siueclipse]

http://www.gsturbo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113

 

[BlackRaptor]

Thanks.

 

[dsm50fifty]

Hey, I found this on ebay... is this a real supercharger or some crazy electric one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...d=1,1&item=7986962990&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:IT

 

[IMMORTALSPYDER]

It's a real one, but only for the non-turbo cars.