Slight Creep/ wastegate question

[93laserAWD]

I have ported my evo316g 2 times now, and i am pretty happy with boost control. The turbo spools right to 10 pounds and holds to just above 5k. By redline i am at 13-14 psi.
My question is, are there any wastegate actuators that have a longer throw? my wastegate hardly opens to 45 degrees. are there any mods besides external? i dont want to try and port again. The only reason i want to get the boost under control is because i am going to install my SAFC with 650's and i have read that you must have controllable boost to tune. thanks for all the input!! -ted

 

[HondaStylez]

No, there are no other actuators.

No, you will never have controlable boost with an internal gate.

No, you don't need steady boost to tune.

Hope that helps.

 

[93laserAWD]

disappointing....

but yes this helps. thanks

 

[oldman]

No, there are no other actuators.

A known solution is to modified the flapper pivot arm which will open the flapper more without changing the actuator itself, this however will also make the flapper easier to get blown open due to reduced leverage.

No, you will never have controlable boost with an internal gate.

"No" as in OP can't do it? There are plenty of people with solid boost control with an internally gated EVO3.

No, you don't need steady boost to tune.

How does one tune while creeping to 25psi? You can tune with boost leaks or jumpped timing, doesn't mean it's a good idea. Please be careful when posting generalized statements like this, at the very least, elaborate with restrictions.

93laserAWD, you have nothing to worry about because you'll be running alot more than 14psi with your 650s.

 

[silver bullit]

Just prot the wastegate area to allow it to open more, or go with an external wastegate.

 

[HondaStylez]

You can tune with fluctuating boost without any problems for the same reason you can turn up the boost without retuning. If I need to explain that reason to you, you don't deserve those little gold stars. There are no restrictions. Pretend it's RPM dependant boost or a Centrifigul S/C and be happy. He's safe with 25psi of creep on that setup, no reason he can't tune just because the boost doesn't stay where he sets it. Oh dear, would do we all survive boost fluctuations? The world is coming to an end, my boost isn't dead nuts rock solid where I set it, oh how shall my car run? Dear me.

"No" as in, MHI wastegates are trash. Sure people have controlled boost because they have retrictive exhausts, boost leaks, or turbos ported until anything resembling turbine efficiency is gone. None of these are recommened. Allow me rephrase: You will never have controlled boost with an internal gate without destroying turbine efficiency. MHI gates simply cannot bypass enough exhaust gas. The end. Stop arguing with me, I answered his questions quickly, efficiently, and accurately. Get off my case.

 

[silver bullit]

You can tune with fluctuating boost without any problems for the same reason you can turn up the boost without retuning. If I need to explain that reason to you, you don't deserve those little gold stars. There are no restrictions. Pretend it's RPM dependant boost or a Centrifigul S/C and be happy. He's safe with 25psi of creep on that setup, no reason he can't tune just because the boost doesn't stay where he sets it. Oh dear, would do we all survive boost fluctuations? The world is coming to an end, my boost isn't dead nuts rock solid where I set it, oh how shall my car run? Dear me.

"No" as in, MHI wastegates are trash. Sure people have controlled boost because they have retrictive exhausts, boost leaks, or turbos ported until anything resembling turbine efficiency is gone. None of these are recommened. Allow me rephrase: You will never have controlled boost with an internal gate without destroying turbine efficiency. MHI gates simply cannot bypass enough exhaust gas. The end. Stop arguing with me, I answered his questions quickly, efficiently, and accurately. Get off my case.

"No as in, MHI wastegates are trash."
Yes they are trash.
"Sure people have controlled boost because they have retrictive exhausts, boost leaks, or turbos ported until anything resembling turbine efficiency is gone. None of these are recommened. Allow me rephrase: You will never have controlled boost with an internal gate without destroying turbine efficiency."
Just cause the guy runs open downpipe on a 20g, 16g, 18g 50 trim, etc and gets 30 psi boost spikes does not mean the turbine efficiency is gone, it is a simple lack of effort on the wastegate to dump off excess boost.

It just means there is no back pressure to keep the turbine from spooling up to quick, and the wastegate cant cope with the xtra demand as it only allows xxx to flow thru. The turbo is capible of handling 20+ psi but the wastegate is only able to keep up to xx reliably. Thats why people run external wastegates.

 

[silver bullit]

I have ported my evo316g 2 times now, and i am pretty happy with boost control. The turbo spools right to 10 pounds and holds to just above 5k. By redline i am at 13-14 psi.
My question is, are there any wastegate actuators that have a longer throw? my wastegate hardly opens to 45 degrees. are there any mods besides external? i dont want to try and port again. The only reason i want to get the boost under control is because i am going to install my SAFC with 650's and i have read that you must have controllable boost to tune. thanks for all the input!! -ted

The original design of the turbo and the manufactures set it at this as a default. If it bothers you to much get a o2 housing that allows it to dump to the atmosphere, if you dont wanna go external.

 

[HondaStylez]

Read and comprehend before you respond. Trashed turbine efficiency is how people get their junk MHI wastegates to HOLD boost. Here's the logic in porting, "If I can't get my wastegate to bypass enough boost, I'll just destroy the turbine efficiency so that it will take more exhaust energy to make the same boost. Now my creep is gone! And so is my turbine efficiency!!"

 

[oldman]

You can tune with fluctuating boost without any problems for the same reason you can turn up the boost without retuning. If I need to explain that reason to you, you don't deserve those little gold stars. There are no restrictions. Pretend it's RPM dependant boost or a Centrifigul S/C and be happy. He's safe with 25psi of creep on that setup, no reason he can't tune just because the boost doesn't stay where he sets it. Oh dear, would do we all survive boost fluctuations? The world is coming to an end, my boost isn't dead nuts rock solid where I set it, oh how shall my car run? Dear me.

What if someone creeps to 30psi? What if he has 550s instead? There certainly are plenty of restrictions and even more reasons why one would want a steady boost level. Like I said, do not post generalized statements that can be misleading, especially to newbies.

"No" as in, MHI wastegates are trash. Sure people have controlled boost because they have retrictive exhausts, boost leaks, or turbos ported until anything resembling turbine efficiency is gone. None of these are recommened. Allow me rephrase: You will never have controlled boost with an internal gate without destroying turbine efficiency. MHI gates simply cannot bypass enough exhaust gas. The end. Stop arguing with me, I answered his questions quickly, efficiently, and accurately. Get off my case.

Again, nothing but generalized statements, learn to follow up your one liners with words such as "but", "however", "with that said"....etc. will put alot more credibility behind your posts.

 

[HondaStylez]

Learn to admit when you're wrong. You seem to be the only person that can't comprehend my posts.

He never asked if creeping was safe. Common sense says that if you creep beyond what your fuel system can handle, that isn't good. What he asked was does it effect his ability to tune. The answer is, NO IT DOESN'T. He can tune to his heart's content all the while the boost is fluctuating between 1psi and 25psi, that's what we have a MAF for. He's using an SAFC so all he needs to worry about is injector offsets, the ECU does the rest. But you knew that already, because you know everything. Teacher wants to give you another gold star, good boy.

 

[oldman]

He never asked if creeping was safe. Common sense says that if you creep beyond what your fuel system can handle, that isn't good. What he asked was does it effect his ability to tune. The answer is, NO IT DOESN'T. He can tune to his heart's content all the while the boost is fluctuating between 1psi and 25psi, that's what we have a MAF for. He's using an SAFC so all he needs to worry about is injector offsets, the ECU does the rest.

Now you're learning, this is what you should have posted in the first place, let's compare this to your first post so you understand for future reference.

No, there are no other actuators.

No, you will never have controlable boost with an internal gate.

No, you don't need steady boost to tune.

Teacher wants to give you another gold star, good boy.

You sound like a kid who can't comprehend the meaning of "respecting" others, if you continue to act like a kid, you will be treated like a kid.

 

[HondaStylez]

I wasn't aware that we are required to write a full tech article for each reply. Don't be bitter. I show respect to those that show respect for me.

 

[silver bullit]

Read and comprehend before you respond. Trashed turbine efficiency is how people get their junk MHI wastegates to HOLD boost. Here's the logic in porting, "If I can't get my wastegate to bypass enough boost, I'll just destroy the turbine efficiency so that it will take more exhaust energy to make the same boost. Now my creep is gone! And so is my turbine efficiency!!"

You need to be quiet and raise your hand. You have no idea how the efficiency is not related to turbine efficiency "so that it will take more exhaust energy to make the same boost" ITS CALLED BOOST LAG! All porting the wastegate is doing is to increase the way the wastegate opens and increase wastegate efficiency and in no way destroy the turbine efficiency.

Do something usefull kid go change your piston return springs, muffler bearings, and check your clutch belt.

 

[silver bullit]

I wasn't aware that we are required to write a full tech article for each reply. Don't be bitter. I show respect to those that show respect for me.

You showed non in the first place so dont be bitter.

 

[HondaStylez]

You need to be quiet and raise your hand. You have no idea how the efficiency is not related to turbine efficiency "so that it will take more exhaust energy to make the same boost" ITS CALLED BOOST LAG! All porting the wastegate is doing is to increase the way the wastegate opens and increase wastegate efficiency and in no way destroy the turbine efficiency.

Bro please, don't even start anything with me. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Turbine efficiency: The amount of work a turbine can do for a given pressure ratio.

With that in mind...

You start with a reasonably efficient turbine. Your wastegate can't bypass enough exhaust. This leads to a higher PR (pressure ratio) than nessesary for the boost you wanted. The result? Too much boost.

You're dumb DSMer, so you figure you'll port your turbine to improve the overboost situation. In reality you're just killing your turbine efficiency. Here's how that works...

You have a higher PR than you need to make the boost. Normal people get functioning wastegates to bring the PR down. But you're an idiot, so you do it by ruining the turbine's efficiency. Remember the definition I gave you. You want the amount of work the turbine is doing to go down; all you can change to accomplish this is to lower the PR or reduce the efficiency. Turbine porting kills efficiency. You have achieved controled boost and solved your problem. By ruining the efficiency, it now takes a higher PR (the one you're currently operating at because of your shitty wastegate) to make less boost. Hurray, feel special that you just fixed your boost creep at the expense of backpressure and spool time. You're brilliant. You're an igorant DSMer that shouldn't keep arguing with me.

 

[oldman]

I wasn't aware that we are required to write a full tech article for each reply.

There are always pros and cons in each answer to a questions, to many variables, it's best to present multiple sides of the story so one can make an intelligent decision that is best for them.

I show respect to those that show respect for me.

There is a difference in disagreeing and disrespecting, you seem to think when people disagree with you RESPECTFULLY, they're disrepecting you and immediately hits back with personal attacks. You have alot of knowledge that can be helpful to many and your participationis greatly appreciated. "With that said" , learn to play nice and repect other's opinions. I'm not here to give your hard time, I'm here to stop you from heading down a dead end street because I see the potential of a helpful/contributing member, tuners will not tolerate negative attitudes regardless how much you know, we are trying to create a mature environment where members can have tech discussions/disagreements without worrying about getting flamed. Think about it before you respond.

 

[turbodsm18]

Bro please, don't even start anything with me. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Turbine efficiency: The amount of work a turbine can do for a given pressure ratio.

With that in mind...

You start with a reasonably efficient turbine. Your wastegate can't bypass enough exhaust. This leads to a higher PR (pressure ratio) than nessesary for the boost you wanted. The result? Too much boost.

You're dumb DSMer, so you figure you'll port your turbine to improve the overboost situation. In reality you're just killing your turbine efficiency. Here's how that works...

You have a higher PR than you need to make the boost. Normal people get functioning wastegates to bring the PR down. But you're an idiot, so you do it by ruining the turbine's efficiency. Remember the definition I gave you. You want the amount of work the turbine is doing to go down; all you can change to accomplish this is to lower the PR or reduce the efficiency. Turbine porting kills efficiency. You have achieved controled boost and solved your problem. By ruining the efficiency, it now takes a higher PR (the one you're currently operating at because of your shitty wastegate) to make less boost. Hurray, feel special that you just fixed your boost creep at the expense of backpressure and spool time. You're brilliant. You're an igorant DSMer that shouldn't keep arguing with me.

So i guess every company that ports turbo are a bunch of dumbasses.

 

[HondaStylez]

There are always pros and cons in each answer to a questions, to many variables, it's best to present multiple sides of the story so one can make an intelligent decision that is best for them.


There is a difference in disagreeing and disrespecting, you seem to think when people disagree with you RESPECTFULLY, they're disrepecting you and immediately hits back with personal attacks. You have alot of knowledge that can be helpful to many and your participationis greatly appreciated. "With that said" , learn to play nice and repect other's opinions. I'm not here to give your hard time, I'm here to stop you from heading down a dead end street because I see the potential of a helpful/contributing member, tuners will not tolerate negative attitudes regardless how much you know, we are trying to create a mature environment where members can have tech discussions/disagreements without worrying about getting flamed. Think about it before you respond.

Oh you mean like the "insulting, flaming" I was warned for and asked you to quote for me and you were unable to? Give me a break dude. You're the one that get's your panties in a bunch every time someone tells you you're wrong or disagrees with you. Then they're immediately "insulting" people and "flaming". Seriously, grow up. Don't make me take back that gold star and put you in time out.


And yes, every company that ports for "boost control" is a dumbass. Extrude honing or smoothing casting roughness is another story. Enlarging and unshrouding a wastegate passage that is small and shrouded by design would most definately make them dumbasses. Since when do you take tech advice from vendors that have something to sell you?

 

[turbodsm18]

Oh you mean like the "insulting, flaming" I was warned for and asked you to quote for me and you were unable to? Give me a break dude. You're the one that get's your panties in a bunch every time someone tells you you're wrong or disagrees with you. Then they're immediately "insulting" people and "flaming". Seriously, grow up. Don't make me take back that gold star and put you in time out.


And yes, every company that ports for "boost control" is a dumbass. Extrude honing or smoothing casting roughness is another story. Enlarging and unshrouding a wastegate passage that is small and shrouded by design would most definately make them dumbasses. Since when do you take tech advice from vendors that have something to sell you?

No i dont take advice from vendors very often, I take advice from the 90% of people on this board who agree on something.

I dont however agree with the 10% of douchebags (Including You) who piss me after reading a couple of their post.

Do you think that running a wastegate off the O2 housing is a horrible setup then?

-Kevin-

 

[HondaStylez]

I'm not here to make you happy, I'm here to enlighten you on the reality of how things work. You could have 99.99% of people here agreeing on something, that doesn't make it right. As a general rule, DSM people are stuck in their ways and ignorant to common sense and what would be simple automotive knowledge if they just opened their eyes. But go ahead, go port your turbos, I'll just keep laughing while my car keeps making more power.

Of course it's a stupid idea. You didn't remove the biggest problem with the boost control, the stupid internal gate passage. There's are reason race cars use external gates, they make more power (wastegate passages don't belong in the turbine housing, nothing but a smooth volute does) and control boost properly. Garret has 4 bolt housings for a reason. Get a real wastegate or deal with the reality of poor boost control and/or less than optimal power.

 

[c4uldr0n]

I have ported my evo316g 2 times now, and i am pretty happy with boost control. The turbo spools right to 10 pounds and holds to just above 5k. By redline i am at 13-14 psi.
My question is, are there any wastegate actuators that have a longer throw? my wastegate hardly opens to 45 degrees. are there any mods besides external? i dont want to try and port again. The only reason i want to get the boost under control is because i am going to install my SAFC with 650's and i have read that you must have controllable boost to tune. thanks for all the input!! -ted

If you install your 650's, your boost isn't automatically going to go up unless you mess around with a EBC/MBC. As far as the 45 degree wastegate/actuator... is your Evo3 16G already matched up with a larger flapper is it the stock flapper?, maybe it doesn't need to open more, but it needs to flow more? $0.02

 

[turbodsm18]

I'm not here to make you happy, I'm here to enlighten you on the reality of how things work. You could have 99.99% of people here agreeing on something, that doesn't make it right. As a general rule, DSM people are stuck in their ways and ignorant to common sense and what would be simple automotive knowledge if they just opened their eyes. But go ahead, go port your turbos, I'll just keep laughing while my car keeps making more power.

Of course it's a stupid idea. You didn't remove the biggest problem with the boost control, the stupid internal gate passage. There's are reason race cars use external gates, they make more power (wastegate passages don't belong in the turbine housing, nothing but a smooth volute does) and control boost properly. Garret has 4 bolt housings for a reason. Get a real wastegate or deal with the reality of poor boost control and/or less than optimal power.

Its funny how you say wastegate passages dont belong on the O2 housing. Last I checked, ForcedPerformance's 3065 and 3052 model turbos are desinged with the wastegate on the o2 passage. But you know, them being a company that specializes in building turbos, they probably have no ####ing clue what they are doing.

After all this argument, Im gonna laugh my ass off, if you run a wastegate of the #1 runner of your exhaust housing.

-Kevin-

 

[turbodsm18]

I'm not here to make you happy, I'm here to enlighten you on the reality of how things work. You could have 99.99% of people here agreeing on something, that doesn't make it right. As a general rule, DSM people are stuck in their ways and ignorant to common sense and what would be simple automotive knowledge if they just opened their eyes. But go ahead, go port your turbos, I'll just keep laughing while my car keeps making more power.

Of course it's a stupid idea. You didn't remove the biggest problem with the boost control, the stupid internal gate passage. There's are reason race cars use external gates, they make more power (wastegate passages don't belong in the turbine housing, nothing but a smooth volute does) and control boost properly. Garret has 4 bolt housings for a reason. Get a real wastegate or deal with the reality of poor boost control and/or less than optimal power.

Its funny how you say wastegate passages dont belong on the O2 housing. Last I checked, ForcedPerformance's 3065 and 3052 model turbos are desinged with the wastegate on the o2 passage. But you know, them being a company that specializes in building turbos, they probably have no ####ing clue what they are doing.

After all this argument, Im gonna laugh my ass off, if you run a wastegate on the #1 runner of your exhaust housing.

-Kevin-

 

[oldman]

I have ported my evo316g 2 times now, and i am pretty happy with boost control. The turbo spools right to 10 pounds and holds to just above 5k. By redline i am at 13-14 psi.
My question is, are there any wastegate actuators that have a longer throw? my wastegate hardly opens to 45 degrees. are there any mods besides external? i dont want to try and port again. The only reason i want to get the boost under control is because i am going to install my SAFC with 650's and i have read that you must have controllable boost to tune. thanks for all the input!! -ted

The anwer to the question you're trying to ask is this.

93laserAWD, you have nothing to worry about because you'll be running alot more than 14psi with your 650s.

PM me if you have follow up questions.

This thread is finished.