Record big rod HP output?

[UndergroundR32]

Woh, you guys are turning a simple thread starting question, into a flame war. I'll agree that LaserRST is a bit misinformed. But I see that, and disregaurd his comments. There's no need (whether you think it will help me to make a wiser decision or not) to start a flame war. Like a wiser person said prior to me (well, maybe not wiser "Agree to disagree". I do however appreciate everyones input. Thank you.

 

[SPEEDY]

Originally posted by LaserRST
Well all I have to say is give me some proof...doesnt say that the front plate it in the manual. The machine shop says it doesnt need to be replaced if its good. These oil pumps are the same way infact they are a part of what makes this engine so good. Seals always need to be replaced. So far all I hear is babble and no real information. Give me some real information and I will be convinced. I really hope you know what it means to hit 400hp. Like I said in a earlier post that its the same range as a Corvette Z-06. This engine can handle that like a passenger car tire can handle 100lbs of air pressure, its just waiting to blow. Share some technical information, quote some one else, explain how cast rods are more supportive than machined rods? This is all hear say and can lead to trouble. Garbage in Garbage out. I think I have been reasonable in providing information, and I feel that a few people disagree with me and provide no real tech info.

Ask larryd what he has went through, all because of the oil pump!

 

[larryd]

hee.. 4 oil pumps now.. youd me amazed what running the pump dry does to it..

 

[NDgsx]

Originally posted by LaserRST
Uh flamer you just contradicted your self, your saying that doin no internal work,(quote... I can tell you right now a 6 bolt/2G pistons with good machine work is going to be 100% more reliable than any engine you are building with only $160 in machine work...end quote)is better than gitting stronger internals?

Any SMART engine builder with EXPERIENCE would have common sense enough to prepare and play it safe. Spend some time at the track, and build some engines first before you try to say that stock internals are stronger and more reliable. That just doesnt compute. Outa your league...

I am saying that properly built engine, or a stock engine, will ALWAYS be better than a half assed rebuild with forged internals. I DID NOT SAY THAT CAST RODS ARE STRONGER. You need to read what is written as it is written.
Why is it stronger and more reliable? Well quite simply any machinist that only charges you $160 for a rebuild is cutting a lot of corners and most likely not very good at what they do. You can't even get a decent machinist to assemble an engine for $160. Hell doing a proper honing job with a torque plate is normally $150. If they are charging $75 for boring and honing then they are not using a torque plate and your cylinders will be out of round considerably.

I am arguing that your budget estimates are way off and that proper machining is more important in most cases than buying forged internals.

I have rebuilt a few 4G63s. Talk to HarryB on here; 195psi compression across the board, 2.5" o2 housing, full N1, HKS mushroom death filter, supra pump, CA afpr, AFC, and my engine. At stock boost he pulls close to fully setup 16G cars (fmic, 550s, etc...). I have been around DSMs for a long time.

Aslan, yeah it's kind of scary huh

 

[LaserRST]

Well if the specs are good and wear isnt excessive boring isnt necessary. If it is out of spec than I can see all the extra labor involved.
With a turbo I can see problems of oiling due to bringing the oil pressure outside the engine to oil the turbo. Running any oil pump dry will cause problems, infact any pump dry will be in the same spot. I agree a torque plate will true the block properly, but from the factory and within factory specs the block is ok since aftermarket internals are designed for the engine. Not the engine needs to be designed for the forged internals. Though if your gonna push 600hp rods to make 700hp tolerances need to be tight, and balancing is very important. Also if you have to bore the engine Pistons need to be replaced with oversized ones any way...why not spend the cash on some 8.5s I have heard mechanics talk about the necessity of torque plates and had it used when I raced my celica, but if some one can give me info on where it helps on the build lemme know. I have rebuilt many diff engines, but havent got a clear answer on what that torque plate does. Thanks!!

 

[UndergroundR32]

I can simply say, that if I were to have anyone rebuild my engine (which I am) and they could not fully explain the job of a torque plate, then I would definately not let them anywhere near my engine. If they don't use it, that's one thing. So many machinists have different opinions on whether it really helps or not. You need to find the few who can say, "Yes, it does make a difference, because it's a given fact that torquing the head down will distort the cylinders X amount of distance. "
Basically, my knowledge of what a torque plate is, and does, is that it's a metal plate, roughly 2 inchs thick that is torqued down to the block in order to simulate a cylinder head being bolted on. This makes the cylinder distort as much as it would when the head is on. Now that is important and of significant distance (depending who you talk to) whether you have cast or forged pistons. However I do not know too much about how it would effect a cast piston, in relation to a forged, considering the cast piston expands at a much different rate. Even still, the cast piston is much weaker than the forged. Anyway, that's basically what it does. If anyone thinks I'm completely wrong, then please don't let me live in the dark. Tell me!

 

[BrnOutKing]

I've personally seen 450whp on a 7bolt motor with just rods. and ARP's.

I've also seen 389whp on a 6bolt

I've done 363whp on my 7 bolt - with just ARP's head studs

Most people I've talked to in the business will say

450hp is Max before you start pushing the limits.

Most of which will change out the internals before then however.

400whp on stock internals should be no problem if I have understood what I've heard correctly.

All of this is with Proper tuning.

Figure this much though.
Brent Rau won't build a 7 bolt. CW is too much of an issue for it to be reliable once you get up there in HP.

My personal opinion on the build motor issue.

Is I wish it was the first thing I would have ever done to my car.

It's just a great way to start off - how ever the issue on realiability also in the past couple months here in MN has shown up as 3 out of 4 cars I know of that just finished having there motors built up. have blown.
Both 1G and 2G's - so it isn't just 6bolt-7bolt issue.

My Stock internal cars for the most part used to get the living Crap kicked out of it every day for the first year I finished my build up.

and the Car itself was breaking down before the motor. So part of me thinks "if it aint broke don't mess with it" sometimes you just get lucky.

I'm personally going to be shooting for 400whp on stock internals on pump gas.

-brian
ps: it's all a mater of pushing air. Can your motor flow enough?
I've seen an almost Stock 2G head max out at 450ish whp.

People in MN know who I'm talking about - he's tried 4 or 5 turbo configurations and hasn't been able to push above that. trying all sorts of different PSI. and trims.

 

[Sleepr DSM]

B.J. of B.J.'s cylinder heads in Okolahoma, has made 550 Wheel Horse Power from a 1rst Gen Big Rod Motor. He stressed that sustaining that level of power is a NO NO.

 

[UndergroundR32]

Well I don't plan on making that much power. Not now anyway. So I'm most likely going to have my engine built with the parts I already have. BJ has most of my parts at the moment anyway, so that's what I'd rather do, as long as my budget is loose enough for it.

 

[Sleepr DSM]

Hey, He has ALL of my parts. Right now I'm putting together Ross 8.5 to 1's, SS valves, and a 1G block and rods, with a stage three port job. I'm picking my engine up this Saturday the 19nth of October. = )

 

[NDgsx]

Originally posted by LaserRST
Well if the specs are good and wear isnt excessive boring isnt necessary. If it is out of spec than I can see all the extra labor involved.

I agree a torque plate will true the block properly, but from the factory and within factory specs the block is ok since aftermarket internals are designed for the engine.

If you are going with forged internals they will need a piston to wall tolerance of .035-.050", with stock cast pistons it is .010-.015 (service limit is .020"). Most machinists would prefer to just overbore it in case one part of the bore is worn more than the others. If it is then pressure on the honing stones may not be equal and you end up burnishing the wall.

Factory head bolts do not extend as far into the block as ARP studs do. When torqued to spec they also do not have as much preload. With factory headbolts the block distortion is negligable. With ARPs though the bore can be out of round from .020-.030". That is going to allow much more blowby, which not only means you are losing power, but it also contaminates the oil quicker. This raises the acidity of the oil. Not good.

 

[UndergroundR32]

Originally posted by Sleepr DSM
Hey, He has ALL of my parts. Right now I'm putting together Ross 8.5 to 1's, SS valves, and a 1G block and rods, with a stage three port job. I'm picking my engine up this Saturday the 19nth of October. = )

Ferrea valves and crower rods. Otherwise, wanna race? Your cars lighter.

 

[TSiturbo001]

The shop i go to made 480whp on big rods/2g pistons with a fpRED. The o-ring on the oil filter blew out before they had a chance to pull any more power out of her. check out http://www.victorresearch.com/ go to the sponsored car named "Black Cherry".

 

[red91gst]

I'm going to try and make some corrections with my 2 cents here.

1G rods are forged, not cast as someone said.

Matt Lennon, capital area, made 496whp on a stock 6-bolt motor.

Horsepower can break rods, so can bad tuning. Detonation is the factor here. I've seen an eagle rod bend at 712whp, its not just a tuning issue.

Please replace your stock oil pump/front cover whenever you build a motor, think of the children.

Waiting for it to blow up before you rebuild is dumb. Send a rod through the block and you wreck the block, crank, rods, and anything else in its way.

Nate
SBR

 

[Mirage2LTurbo]

I've seen mid 500 whp out of both stock 6bolts and 7bolts.

Not to start a flame fest, but I'm inclined to disagree with LaserRST. When you have something to backup your knowledge, come back and run with DSMu4ia and the other experienced members. Sounds to me you haven't rebuilt an engine, or you would surely have replaced the oil pump, especially if you put in Pauters! That's like building a house on a termite nest.

 

[Tort9320g]

Just wanted to give props to the so-called "weak 7-bolts" in some of our cars.I purchased a 93 TSI AWD 5 years back with 82,000 miles on it. Original owner changed the oil every 3,000 miles with Mobil 1 synthetic. I've done the same since I bought the car. Car is heavily modded and has dozens of passes at the track at 26 p.s.i. Ran a best last year of 11.05 @ 122.93. By the way...the car currently has 134,000 miles on it. STOCK bottom end and STOCK head. Never been apart. No complaints here!!

Dave

 

[PSI2HI]

My old car made 531whp on 27 psi, stock 1G rods, 2G pistons @ 7500 rpm. Motor still runs today. Could easily make 550whp @ 8000 rpm.

 

[definitiveno]

There is a gigantic difference between forged pistons and cast pistons. I would rather have cast pistons in a car I had to drive to work every day.

Can you put some details on this rdrkt? Do the different tolerances from cast to forged effect gas milage?

 

[red91gst]

Forged pistons slap more, unless properly spec'd. The expansion contraction of daily driving:

ie: Get in car, dont wait for it to warm up and be merily on your way to work cause your in a rush. Stop, get gas. Get to work, go out for lunch, and drive home, etc.

Cast has expands slower I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) and make a much better daily driver piston because of expansion contraction during your day to day driving.

On experience of looking up countless rods, and blower setups, I find that almost always the rod breaks at the bolt, and then goes through the block.

And improper tuning can heat up the piston and rod too far, and the stress can warp the rod. If your running that hot, your already screwed anyhow.

I still don't understand why everyone is 'worried' about their rods and not gabbering about something else equally retarded.

I've had forged piston motors in my cars for more than 10k miles daily driven. Alot of the piston slap theory stems from older JE pistons that had waaaay to much piston to wall clearance. Piston slap today on a newer Wiseco or Ross piston is nearly nonexistant. The cylinder walls were spotless when I had the head off the high mile forged motor.

Nate
SBR

 

[purplehazetsi]

Mike Rizzotti Bone stock 1g bottom end. FP Red 494AWHP 10.9

id say 500ish to the pavement is getting sketchey

 

[GRNDSM]

Mike Rizzotti Bone stock 1g bottom end. FP Red 494AWHP 10.9

id say 500ish to the pavement is getting sketchey

Quick update, Mike has made 560hp on FP3575 and still the same motor (stock, ORIGINAL bottom end with 100k miles and 500-600 1/4 mile passes).

 

[Deez]

What kind of engine management is Mike using?

 

[GRNDSM]

Mike has just switched from VPC/GCC to AEM EMS. We used my AEM cal. file pretty much unaltered, so it wasn’t even as good of a tune as it can be for his specific engine.

Important to note that this was at only 28psi of boost. His next run (~2psi more) was looking much better (~20hp more at lower RPMs), but he snapped his Acufab throttle body before he reached peak HP mark . I would expect much better numbers from him in near future.

Will his engine be able to withstand that extra power? That remains to be seen

 

[Deez]

I'm curious as to how high he is reving that puppy up... and how much torque he makes at peak torque. What are his mods? I'm kind of intrigued as to how much me stock motor can take, all I need to find is a switchable tranny/transfercase so that I can dyno the pig.

Also, if you're willing to share, how much timing are you guys running? I'm lucky to get away with 9* on pump gas (and 24 lbs on a Red), and roughly around 19-20* on race with my AEM. Just trying to compare.

As far as accufab throttle bodies are concerned, you might want to look at This:
He had some iteresting info about the plate, but I can't seem to find it at the moment