Record big rod HP output?

[rdrkt]

I'm going to agree with DSMu4ia. There is no reason at all to rebuild your motor until in requires you to. However I might do it a little sooner than

Originally posted by DSMu4ia
I would not touch it, until it either blows up, or drinks a quart of oil every 100 miles.

But the point remains the 1g rod 2g piston is hard to beat. You can do a 91 rod 2g piston motor for around 1500 bucks. It will hold 450+ hp to the wheels. It held my 400hp to the wheels on pump gas just fine. If you want something stronger than that go ross/crower its what most of the pros use its quality stuff. I wouldn’t waste my time or money with cheaper aftermarket pistons or rods.

 

[Formz]

Just to add a little bit of info:

I know of a place selling Ross pistons, 8.5:1 compression WITH pins and rings for $400 shipped. PM if you want the name of the place cause I think posting vendors is against this boards policy.

Compare that to the $370 it would of costed me to get 2g pistons and with rings and then getting my 1g rods machined, I figured f it I'll just buy the Ross ones instead.

 

[rdrkt]

There is a gigantic difference between forged pistons and cast pistons. I would rather have cast pistons in a car I had to drive to work every day.

 

[Formz]

I use my car like 3 months out of the year. Sucks being in college.

 

[UndergroundR32]

Would a bore and hone job that's not perfectly circular. Take a torque plate-less machining. Would that have a worse effect on cast pistons, although they are not as strong as forged, they expand at a quicker rate. Or forged pistons, which are stronger but take a good amount of time to expand before properly set in the cylinder?

 

[Formz]

ALWAYS use a torque plate. No matter what.

 

[v8slayer]

Originally posted by 2-0turbo


What kind of oil (brand/weight) do you run?

Mobile 1 10w30 with a OEM filter.

 

[v8slayer]

Originally posted by rdrkt
I'm going to agree with DSMu4ia. There is no reason at all to rebuild your motor until in requires you to. However I might do it a little sooner than


But the point remains the 1g rod 2g piston is hard to beat. You can do a 91 rod 2g piston motor for around 1500 bucks. It will hold 450+ hp to the wheels.

It held my 400hp to the wheels on pump gas just fine. If you want something stronger than that go ross/crower its what most of the pros use its quality stuff. I wouldn’t waste my time or money with cheaper aftermarket pistons or rods.

What boost , octane , rpm and compression ratio netted you 400 WHP???

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by v8slayer
What boost , octane , rpm and compression ratio netted you 400 WHP???

21 lbs, 94 octane, 8500rpm redline, a little higher than 8:5:1 CR. But that really doesn’t tell you much does it?

 

[UndergroundR32]

Originally posted by Formz
ALWAYS use a torque plate. No matter what.

What do you base that opinion on? Have you seen someone have a bad experience with a block that didn't use one when machined?

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by Formz
ALWAYS use a torque plate. No matter what.

While that is a fantastic suggestion There are VERY few engine shops out their that have a proper torque plate. However there are plenty of motors out there making plenty of reliable power without the use of a torque plate. If you have a shop that has one or if you have one that is better but it is not mission critical.

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by v8slayer


What boost , octane , rpm and compression ratio netted you 400 WHP???

you're ride is amazing

 

[Formz]

I found two shops locally in connecticut no less that have torque plates for 4g63's. Connecticut people! heh

 

[v8slayer]

Originally posted by rdrkt

21 lbs, 94 octane, 8500rpm redline, a little higher than 8:5:1 CR. But that really doesn’t tell you much does it?

So was the 400whp at 8500rpm and how were you cooling the IC on the dyno?

The reason I ask is a guy did 380 WHP at 7000 rpm running 15 PSI with sucky 91 Octane up here in Canada.
He had 10:1 pistons , green , stock cams , 660 vpc and a port matched head.
I figured your C/R was higher than stock or you were reving it big time.

Your 400 whp is awesome , let me know how much better it is on C-16 and 30 psi please.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by v8slayer
So was the 400whp at 8500rpm and how were you cooling the IC on the dyno?

The reason I ask is a guy did 380 WHP at 7000 rpm running 15 PSI with sucky 91 Octane up here in Canada.
He had 10:1 pistons , green , stock cams , 660 vpc and a port matched head.
I figured your C/R was higher than stock or you were reving it big time.

Your 400 whp is awesome , let me know how much better it is on C-16 and 30 psi please.

It isnt dyno verfied I am just going off of weight and trap speed. You could rev the car to the moon and that still wouldn’t change your peak hp number any. With a stock intake manifold most DSMs run out of air at 7k regardless of turbo size. I would love to tell you how it was on c16 but I am dropping in a 4g64 in its place this winter along with a few other goodies.

Did Marco build your buddy’s 10:1 CR motor? Those are some great numbers I bet it spooled up great too.

 

[v8slayer]

Did Marco build your buddy’s 10:1 CR motor? Those are some great numbers I bet it spooled up great too. [/B]

Marco sold him the pistons but I don't think he built the engine.
As for the intake running out breath at 7000 I would figure stock cams and head would start to limit the engine first.
You can get HP two ways from small engines-
1-High reving tuned engine with cams,valves,ignition,compression.
Reving with a engine tuned for it will create more power at the top with loss at the bottom.
2-Big boost with a proper setup and a great turbo system.

Good luck with the 4G64 I know about a dozen people who are taking the leap this winter.

 

[NDgsx]

Originally posted by LaserRST


Uh... dude... dont need front cover...oil housing, dont need... timing belt and gasket kit is good idea cost under 250.00 plus machine work will be more maybe 160.00. These engines oil good, a 6bolt engine dont need much machining, your stock engine will blow before any PROPERLY built engine.

OK I know I am a wiseman and should not flame people, but in all honesty you do not know WTF you are talking about and make a TERRIBLE argument. I normally don't do this, but I am afraid people just might buy into your statements, then end up building some half assed engine.

So let me get this straight, you are advocating "spending the money to do it right the first time". Then you do not see any benifit of replacing the front cover.
First off tell me why a used oil pump is "good". Have you ever looked at one before? It's two metal gears, from time to time there is metal to metal contact. They do wear down.
Deposits form in oil when it is not changed regularly. The passages in the front case are very small. Are you honestly going to risk the life of your engine over a $150 piece? You can not tell me they never clog, they do and I have seen it happen to people before.

Here's a great contradicition, you say that machine work will be $160 and that the 4G63 "dont need much machining", then at the end you say, "a PROPERLY built engine". Show me a "properly built engine" with only $160 in machining and I will show you purple elephants flying out of my butt. Here I'll save you some time and give you a list for a decent engine:
bore and hone $70
line hone main journals $150
deck $70
hot tank $50
micro polish crank $45
balance crank $65
balance rotating assembly $90

Then if you are having the shop assemble the short block for you (which 99% of the people on here should do) factor in another $200-$300.

So um where did the $160 come from? I didn't even list things like removing and replacing the freeze plugs, chasing main journal and head bolt threads, or magnafluxing the crank and block.

So which is it doing it right the first time or being a cheap ass?

I can tell you right now a 6 bolt/2G pistons with good machine work is going to be 100% more reliable than any engine you are building with only $160 in machine work.
A good, reliable, bottom end with forged internals will be at least $2k.

 

[LaserRST]

Uh flamer you just contradicted your self, your saying that doin no internal work,(quote... I can tell you right now a 6 bolt/2G pistons with good machine work is going to be 100% more reliable than any engine you are building with only $160 in machine work...end quote)is better than gitting stronger internals? First off the face plate does not have to be replaced. Or machined. Checking tolerances on the oil pump can be done at home if you have the experience. I have looked into having the block done and where I took my head (165.00 in labor parts, surfacing all gasket surfaces, valve job on all 16 valves, clean and polish cams, clean and true cam mating surfaces) he will do it for 160.00. This includes surfacing all gasket surfaces, magnaflux, bake and wash the block, checking tolerances (if boring is neccssary, he will call to approve additional work), the crank can be done too for an extra 75.00. Call any place that sells performance parts and they will say that the stock rods shouldnt go above 300hp. I did my home work before installing my internals. These, like most imports are excellent engines, they oil well(reason behind 250,000 mile cars, much like the toyota 22-r, these engines design in oiling is similar), cool very efficiently sometimes too efficient. The head is just ready to be tapped for more horses. I dont wanna flame either but dont want people to think that putting 400+ horses in this on stock equipment is ok. This is a high revving engine, putting that much horses with out strengthening its internals is rediculous. And if you think that putting stock stuff in is better? Geez dood, i guess Pauter (who makes machined chromoly rods) doesnt need to be in the DSM arena. Any SMART engine builder with EXPERIENCE would have common sense enough to prepare and play it safe. Spend some time at the track, and build some engines first before you try to say that stock internals are stronger and more reliable. That just doesnt compute. Outa your league...

Ready to see them purple elephants any time too... im ready when you are. I hope it doesnt hurt, well if the same amount of crap that comes outa yer mouth comes outa yer butt I think you will have no problem handling those elephants.

Just kidding dude, I dont wanna take this on another road of going back and forth cuz its rediculous. We can agree to disagree but somewhere in our DISCUSSIONS there will good information passed on to some one who is serious about building a good engine. Not just putting some stuff together and seeing how much horses they can git.

 

[larryd]

Originally posted by LaserRST
We can agree to disagree but somewhere in our DISCUSSIONS there will good information passed on to some one who is serious about building a good engine.

please do that and drop this argument at this so I dont have to close this post.

 

[NosLaser]

Wow. I agree 100% with Nick (becomming a more familiar occurance these days, huh Drake?) and dude, LaserRST, you really REALLY need to stop before people actually start ingesting what you say as fact. You COULDN'T be more off base. If you pull a motor apart, and DON'T repace the front plate and oil pump assembly, then you are an idiot. Let me guess, you don't replace the front and rear main seal either do you? You are flaming people for the wrong things, when your information is completely false.

Regards,

 

[MaineDSM]

Originally posted by LaserRST
I dont wanna flame either but dont want people to think that putting 400+ horses in this on stock equipment is ok.

However, with a bone stock 4G63, 400 hp *IS* ok. It laughs at 400hp. 7bolt, 6bolt, doesn't matter. The quesion at hand is WHAT CAN THE BIG RODS HANDLE? The answer so far is close to 500hp.

 

[LaserRST]

Well all I have to say is give me some proof...doesnt say that the front plate it in the manual. The machine shop says it doesnt need to be replaced if its good. These oil pumps are the same way infact they are a part of what makes this engine so good. Seals always need to be replaced. So far all I hear is babble and no real information. Give me some real information and I will be convinced. I really hope you know what it means to hit 400hp. Like I said in a earlier post that its the same range as a Corvette Z-06. This engine can handle that like a passenger car tire can handle 100lbs of air pressure, its just waiting to blow. Share some technical information, quote some one else, explain how cast rods are more supportive than machined rods? This is all hear say and can lead to trouble. Garbage in Garbage out. I think I have been reasonable in providing information, and I feel that a few people disagree with me and provide no real tech info.

 

[NosLaser]

My car made 423 WHEEL HP and 428 WHEEL torque, and I raced my car on the highway EVERY single weekend. My races occured from 60-160+ so if it was gonna blow, then it would have. Did I forget to mention that my motor had stock internals? 1G rods and 1G pistons pal. Oh yeah, and that was ON NITROUS too. You know my secret? A VERY well built stock bottom end rebuild that was balanced and blueprinted. These bottom ends (early 6 bolt) can handle power without problems; however a large quantity of their power holding capapbilities come from proper tuning. I can use a stock motor, and tune it correctly, and you could use a Pauter/Ross combo and blow it up with much less power if you are tuning like an 8 headed retarded redneck farm bunny. However, for you to spout off that it costs 160 dollars to rebuild a motor, and that you wouldn't take the pre-caution to replace the front plate and oil pump is nothing more than BAD advice.

Regards,

 

[LaserRST]

Geez dude...you blue printed you engine how much did that cost? Easy on the flamin. Share some info on why its nothing more than bad advice. If it is good...and havent come across one that has exceeded its tolerances yet you dont need to bottom line. You blue printed your block thats why it handles so much. It gives no provision for error, especially on a good seasoned block. That is good information. Would you have attempted gitting that range without blue printing? You seem like an intelligent person...I dont think you would. This would be good advice. But to say run stock and juice as much as you can till it blows...well I cant agree with that. And I wont say that a cast rod will outperform a machined one. Let try to turn this into a good string please now that some one is willing to turn up some good points on how to safely extract HP. The block I have bent two rods doing 378HP on a blue printed block by the previous owner. He street raced consistently. High revving engines arent designed to do this...but some beat the system.

 

[LaserRST]

What is your complete set up also?