Question for my friend, 420a Engine

[Azryn]

Ok, firstly let me say, if this is the wrong forum for this question I apologize...

NOW This is regarding my friend's car... He has a 98 420a eclipse.

He is wanting to build his engine.. He bought another 420a to build. Anyway, He is wanting to do the 2.2 stroker with forged internals, a mild cam (most likely the stage2 BC Cams) completely built and reworked head... With 12.5 Compression. So his engine is going to be fully build top to bottom...

My question is how much HP would this net him if done right with a good tune? not really to the wheels but an estimation of how much HP the motor itself will put out at the crank.

(and before you say it, yes, he understands it will take a lot of money. We've already looked up the parts and the prices for them. He has his goal set and that's what he wants to go for. As well, I myself have read some other threads about said compression, he has not but I mentioned it to him, and he is fully aware of the stability of the driving characteristics the car would have. He is still wishing to go that far so, I realize, and he half ass understands that it Might/could/would be possibly undrivable in normal circumstances but he insists that is what he wants to do. So my question is purely HP related.)

Thank you Very much for your input and answers!
Have a nice night/day/afternoon/evening!

P.S. Just in case you ask anyway, it's a 5speed.

 

[kerndog8]

This wont answer your question the way you would want however, to be honest, the horsepower or even torque gains, are not worth the money he would be investing.

HOWEVER, if he were to drop to 10.5 or 8.8 compression and start a turbo build, THEN the gains would be exponential that over what a standard 2.0L build would be.

ALSO: note that when changing displacement the cams are rated for the 2.0 liter, so a stage 2 would act more like a stage 1, and a 3 more like a 2. This is slightly skewed and exaggerated however still holds somewhat true.

 

[NeMiZiS]

He didn't ask if it would be worth investing, he already said it isn't his car and he has explained this to the owner.
I'm not sure how to answer this with out it sounding like bench racing, but I wouldn't expect more than 300HP.That is purely based on what I've seen from other peoples builds.

 

[Azryn]

This wont answer your question the way you would want however, to be honest, the horsepower or even torque gains, are not worth the money he would be investing.

HOWEVER, if he were to drop to 10.5 or 8.8 compression and start a turbo build, THEN the gains would be exponential that over what a standard 2.0L build would be.

ALSO: note that when changing displacement the cams are rated for the 2.0 liter, so a stage 2 would act more like a stage 1, and a 3 more like a 2. This is slightly skewed and exaggerated however still holds somewhat true.

So I'll let him know about the cams, that it's the stage 3 he's wanting for a stroker.

Um... Okay for my own curiosity... You said 10.5 or 8.8 and turbo... did you mean 10.5 NA or 8.8 Turbo.... or 10.5 or 8.8 Turbo...? And if the internals are forged, would it be safe to turbo a 10.5 compression? *I'd assume not... He is wanting a powerful N/A Motor... the turbo thing was for my own curiosity.

And NeMiZis... about 300 huh? Or not more then 300... basically around the 300 mark but not above... That's still good... For an eclipse 300 at the crank will scoot I'd imagine.

Thanks.

 

[NeMiZiS]

Some of the highest HP N/A 420A are around 280, so I mean no more than 300HP.

 

[Azryn]

okay, thank you. I'll let him know that.... I am curious though as to how unstable... or undriveable the 12.5 compression is for daily driving.. does it buck and sputter when driven at low speeds? or does it have to much torque for anything besides racing.... or it will just not even go unless above a certain RPM Basically making it useless for anything BUT racing?

 

[bagged420a]

12.5 compression? You/your friend should look into building a 2.4. And the formention of a turbo and 10.5 would be ok, just need a great tune.

 

[Diamondrev]

Some of the highest HP N/A 420A are around 280, so I mean no more than 300HP.

I don't know where your getting your info from but I have never heard of a 280hp N/A 420a dsm. The FASTEST and highest HP 420a dsm belongs to Bullet, and His 420a Dyno'd at 212 hp(All Motor). thats the highest hp N/A 420a dsm right now.

To the op, If your friend is really serious about this type of set-up then I would suggest he Talk to Someone with experience with that setup, Other wise its just speculation. The person you need to talk to is Bullet, Hopefully he will chime in soon and give you his 2 cents

 

[bullettdsm]

Some of the highest HP N/A 420A are around 280, so I mean no more than 300HP.

Really? Do tell.....

My question is how much HP would this net him if done right with a good tune? not really to the wheels but an estimation of how much HP the motor itself will put out at the crank.

What are you using for a tuner? Not sure what validity this would have for real life use but, more importantly, not sure how to get that number other than an engine dyno.

.....a mild cam (most likely the stage2 BC Cams)...............We've already looked up the parts and the prices for them.

Well you say you've looked up the parts, so I presume that you know that Brian Crower makes cams for our 420a's (I would never use BC cams, so I really wouldn't know). But curiousity gets the better of me, so do you have a link for prices and specs?

... With 12.5 Compression. So his engine is going to be fully build top to bottom...

"Fully built" would include something like Eagle rods. But my opinion is that our stock rods can take at least 250whp (I would venture to say more. But I would also replace the rod bolts and make them full floating). Keeping in mind that Eagle rods are actually heavier than our stock rods.

As for the comp, well, I have wanted to test my theory out. I do believe that our engines can run on 12.5 comp with 93oct. I haven't done that, but I would definitely try it (but keep in mind that I try a lot of "wacky" stuff). Just from the experiences I have had over the years in not being "knock limited" on my various set-ups. I'm believing that 12.5 could work, but no guarantees BUT, you are looking at doing this with a 2.2 storker, so I'm not sure how much that would play into the mix.

Obviously, the bolt-ons would play intot he mix as well.

MB

 

[Ethand14]

I would go for a turbo instead of all motor. Compared to the money your friend would spend to make a decently quick n/a, he could spend on a built block and turbo kit.

 

[NeMiZiS]

Really? Do tell.....

Oh my bad.
I was actually thinking about your car.
Sorry for the bad information, but hey I almost gave you an extra 65HP just on hearsay.

 

[bullettdsm]

Oh my bad.
I almost gave you an extra 65HP just on hearsay.

How I wish it was that easy, . Of course, maybe I could get that on a DynaJet

MB

 

[southrneclipser]

I think it would be better to do a 2.4 build. It would probably be cheaper because he could use cloud car parts, plus he would have more hp and torque for the same amount of work and he weget even more power if he went turbo later. Theres a good amount of info on 2gnt.com

 

[Azryn]

Bullet: Thanks for the reply, the stroker kit comes with rods... and Yes.. BC Cam's is short for Brian Crower Cams
Specs for stage 2:
Stage 2 Details:

Stage 2 - 3/4 Race
Most popular profile for the street/strip.
Lope at idle.
Spring Kit #84176 required.
RPM Range: 2000 to 7500+


Advertised Duration:
241 / 241

Duration @ .050"
196 / 194

Gross Lift w/1.75
.388" / .357"

Stage 3:
Stage 3 Details:

Stage 3 - Full Race
Recommended for drag race use.
Heavy engine mods required.
RPM Range: 2200 to 7500+

Advertised Duration:
254 / 250

Duration @ .050":
205 / 200

Gross Lift w/1.75:
.444" / .437"

....And yes, it seems for the money he should do a Turbo... Please enlighten me so I may tell him, what is a cloud car?

Oh... He was gonna get a Racing ECU from Howell Automotive... Which is suppost to already be tuned out of the box for maximum power.

Thanks for the Advice so far.

P.S. Cimotorsports.net priced both the stage 2 and stage 3 cams at 450 (449.99)

 

[southrneclipser]

cloud cars are cars with the 420a engine and its varients.
Dodge stratus
Chrysler cirrus
and Pt cruiser (go to the 420a faq section for more)
all have the 2.4 420a engines. You can use the 2.4 bottom end with the regular 2.0 420a head and you can even use srt4 rods and pistons to go turbo. It take a little bit of modification, but if you friend can rebuild an engine than its nothing out of his league to do a 2.4 hybrid engine. Or if he is set on n/a than a high compression properly built 2.4 420a could keep up with a stock or mildly modified gst.

 

[Azryn]

Update: I told him all the info stuff... pretty much convinced him for more power, forget the stroker, just get 2.0l forged internals low compression pistons headwork and turbo the hell out of it, after hearing all the info... Price for Power ratio, he agreed.