Propane instead of Nitrous?

[definitiveno]

I'll tell you what you seem to be missing.
Diesel does not ignite like regular fuel ,it is compressed to the point of ignition hence the lack of sparkplugs. So adding a fuel like propane that ignites in a completly different manner, adds power.
N20 as a whole is not a oxidizer just the oxygen portion which is uses as fuel. the nitrogen portion acts as a stabilizer.

wrong. Unlike regular gasoline engines the fuel in a deisel engine never sees any compression. This is why deisels can run 40 psi on 25:1 compression ratios. What happens inside a deisel engine upon compression stroke, fuel is released instantly into the cylender......and under the intense heat caused by the high boost and compression the fuel instantly ignites. The glow plug is simply there to ensure ignition of the cylender under low boost/temperature conditions. Instead of spark provided to a compressed mixture of gas and 02 it has fuel injected into an raging hot cylender at a specific time in stroke through a process called direct injection.


In short, it is not compressed to the point of ignition, because due to simple changes in weather could change the ignition point during it's stroke.

 

[tacoman123]

The nitrous solenoids weren't meant to be used as much as the solenoids that are used for propane, they will overheat.

-Tahleel

 

[ShadowWulf]

The propane would only fire when the nitrous was firing.....so i doubt overheating would matter.

 

[MNGSX]

If you must run propane run a aditional injector controller or second bank staged injection. Then use injectors from a CNG (comp nat gas) car. Same as bosch 1680cc alcohol injectors...

Propane really cant do anything you cant do with a high octane liquid fuel... In fact you are probably better off with the alcohol...


deffinitiveno...

Diesel is compressed to the point of ignition... The cetane rating of diesel fuel means that the compression ignition point is so high only thermonuclear weather or something would change the ignition point. Look at it this way octane is to millimeters as cetane is to centimeters.

The glow plugs are there to heat the cylinder head up on a cold engine so that it can actually compression ignite when the engine is cold. New generation engines have heat grids in leu of glow plugs to superheat the intake air instead of the head. This works faster and better since as the engine warms the grid slowly turns off providing just the right amount of heat untill the mill is up to full operating temp.


Since they are direct port the fuel can be injected even when the intake valve is closed.. New common rail pilot injection systems have quieted diesel engines considerablly... about 12db. Fuel is dribbled in a bit well before the right time to inject the majority of the fuel.. This pre-burn prevents the loud knock like noises in older diesels.

 

[ShadowWulf]

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43707&page=2&pp=25&highlight=ipo+propane

A nice long and informative thread on the topic i dug up in my search...however it doesnt answer all my questions yet (but maybe it will help others...) Can that thread maybe be stickied for future peeps btw mods?

Also i have a thread going on over at 2gnt on this also if anybody wants to take a look. im just trying to consolidate all the propane info i can find so i can get a good general overview on this, and my future plans....

 

[definitiveno]

If you must run propane run a aditional injector controller or second bank staged injection. Then use injectors from a CNG (comp nat gas) car. Same as bosch 1680cc alcohol injectors...

Propane really cant do anything you cant do with a high octane liquid fuel... In fact you are probably better off with the alcohol...


deffinitiveno...

Diesel is compressed to the point of ignition... The cetane rating of diesel fuel means that the compression ignition point is so high only thermonuclear weather or something would change the ignition point. Look at it this way octane is to millimeters as cetane is to centimeters.

The glow plugs are there to heat the cylinder head up on a cold engine so that it can actually compression ignite when the engine is cold. New generation engines have heat grids in leu of glow plugs to superheat the intake air instead of the head. This works faster and better since as the engine warms the grid slowly turns off providing just the right amount of heat untill the mill is up to full operating temp.


Since they are direct port the fuel can be injected even when the intake valve is closed.. New common rail pilot injection systems have quieted diesel engines considerablly... about 12db. Fuel is dribbled in a bit well before the right time to inject the majority of the fuel.. This pre-burn prevents the loud knock like noises in older diesels.

I promise you, your slightly off, or maybe were saying the same things in a different way. Deisel fuel is not injected into the cylender until the piston has made it's full compression stroke and is then ready to fire. The gas spends no time in the cylender being compressed, the second it enters the heat within the cylender is so intense it instantlt burns. I guess it is the compression that makes it do that, but its just the heat produced by the compression.

I know you are ####in very smart guy, I'm not tryin to battle with ya cause you will prolly eat me alive. Read this real quick and see if were sayin the same things.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/diesel1.htm

A gasoline engine intakes a mixture of gas and air, compresses it and ignites the mixture with a spark. A diesel engine takes in just air, compresses it and then injects fuel into the compressed air. The heat of the compressed air lights the fuel spontaneously.

 

[MNGSX]

Yes the majority of the fuel is injected post TDC of the compression stroke. The heat of the high compression ratio The addition of a small amount of fuel before TDC of the compression stroke eliminates much of the knock associated with typical diesels.

I hear you.. You are right about the majority of the fuels injection timing. The new electronic common rail systems are doing some cool stuff..

 

[definitiveno]

Yes the majority of the fuel is injected post TDC of the compression stroke. The heat of the high compression ratio The addition of a small amount of fuel before TDC of the compression stroke eliminates much of the knock associated with typical diesels.

I hear you.. You are right about the majority of the fuels injection timing. The new electronic common rail systems are doing some cool stuff..

getting there...


Deisels have no knock, relativly. Well actually the entire firing process is designed upon the system where a regular gasoline 4 stroke engine would see knock. Knock is preignition, correct? Without any fuel in the cylender under compression what is going to catch fire? That is the magic of high boost and compression, no fuel in the chamber until after tdc means you can put as much pressure in the cylender as your poor little ringlands and pistons can handle before ignition. In high horse power applications where the combustions are so intense propane wich burns at a lower temperature is introduced to protect your internals from melting.

 

[MNGSX]

listen to a non pilot injection diesel at idle and tell me what you think the noise is coming from?

knock. residual fuel and ex gasses in the cylinder cause it. It's not the same as detonation or preignition in an gas engine but similar.

http://scoop.daimlerchrysler.com/special_tech_diesel_cummins.shtml

The Cummins 610 includes advanced noise, vibration and harshness control systems to further reduce the noise at idle. These complex noise deadening systems greatly decrease the familiar sounds associated with earlier diesels. Part of the method is pilot injection--a short burst of fuel before the main injection. The pilot injection reduces the spike in combustion pressure for dramatically quieter combustion. Customers will realize greater comfort without compromising the impressive power of the Cummins 610.

http://www.duramaxdiesel.com/02_bosch/sub03.htm

The sophistication and technology of the direct injection system components make the Duramax engine capable of employing a process known as "pilot injection."


Pilot injection involves injecting a small amount of fuel into the cylinder prior to the main injection event. A complex process in the electronic controls selects the optimal time, duration and quantity of pilot injection, coupled with the main injection charges.


The result — combustion starts on a smaller scale and builds subtly, but rapidly, for reduced noise/knock, less vibration and quieter and smoother warm-ups.

 

[definitiveno]

The sophistication and technology of the direct injection system components make the Duramax engine capable of employing a process known as "pilot injection.


Pilot injection involves injecting a small amount of fuel into the cylinder prior to the main injection event. A complex process in the electronic controls selects the optimal time, duration and quantity of pilot injection, coupled with the main injection charges.



The result — combustion starts on a smaller scale and builds subtly, but rapidly, for reduced noise/knock, less vibration and quieter and smoother warm-ups."

Do they still optimize this system on the more powerful rigs? That sounds alright for a stock engine but really complicated for the built trucks running aggressive setups.


So instead of little pops screwing with the inertia of the piston they develope a small one on purpose that continues into the main combustion. Wierd.

 

[MNGSX]

The fuel pumps pressure is electronically controlled as is injector pulse width just like a FI car. It has a single fuel rail per cylinder bank. one rail on cummins.

With chips they can increase injector PW and fuel pump pressure programming. Also larger injectors are available.

No problems on high power rigs.

 

[DragGSX]

allright its probally allready been explained but since i usta drive a 3000gt vr4 and was very active in there forums, and they have been running propane for years. And seeing people hear look at it like its something new to dsmers was weird


Propane is used mainly for its high octane(104-110oct) by the vr4 and TT guys. Its alot cheaper in the long run to run propane on top of pump gas than it is to fill up with race gas all the time. Propane takes up much less space in its liquid form. It is 270 times more compact in its liquid state than it is as a gas. that means you get more race gas for less money. A propane tank even when used all the time will last threw many tanks of pump gas

Propane also alows you to run a higher psi on stock parts i.e-injectors,intercoolers
because it itself is a petrolum gas like gasoline. Instead of bigger injector spraying more fuel to achive a higher psi your using propane. Also when propane changes from a liquid to a gas it comes out at 60deg. this is why it lowers knock. It cools the incoming air charge much like your intercooler.

So now instead of buying bigger injectors, a way to controll them, higher flowing fuel pump, race gas and an upgraded intercooler to run psi's above 15 safely, your using propane which does it all with one kit(to a point)

a guy named ryan carn upgraded to twin dr500 turbos on his 93 vr4 and ran a 12.1 with stock injectors, stock fuel pump and stock intercoolers. now i dont know if thats something to get excited with in the dsm world but in the 3000gt and stealth world thats AMAZING!!!!!
hes now taking down vipers with just a propane kit and a turbo upgrade. theres videos on dynamicracing.com to prove it

When installing propane on a car that allready has nitrous. yes you need two diff nozels on the intake. The propane is activated threw a hobs pressure switch. Basically you set the psi you want your propane to start to inject. lets say 15psi it starts to inject, but your actuall psi on the car is 20 to whatever.. when your running pump gas and your hit 15psi (the safe limit for pump gas) bam.. the propane starts to flow now your running race gas. basically.

You guys are right to a point when you say that you can run a higher shot of nitrous with propane. Yes and No. it depends on if your engine internals can handle it. when running a higher shot of nitrous you NEED more fuel. you can either upgrade to BIG injectors or run propane to off set the added air to get a good a/f ratio.

Also when runing a propane system YOU NEED a EWS (early warning system) something to tell you when your bottle pressure is low(a light or buzzer is hooked up to it)...Ive seen many people come on the forums to say that they were running pump gas + propane on 25psi and ran out of propane half way threw the race and BOOM melted pistons and blew there engine

someone mentioned in this thread that they wanted to fill there nitrous bottle with propane to run that. NO you cant. for a couple reasons. for one no compitent refill station will do it. Its dangerous for many reasons buy the main reason is. you wouldnt want to be at ur dentist office and him try to knock u out with nitrous but wait, whoops some dick head filled it with propane. i know it sounds dumb but when you get into that stuff with Codes and ish its all hypathetical stuff. (yes i cant spell) aslo the threads on diff bottles are diff just for this reason.. actelyne bottle have there own thread size and dirrection so you dont hook it to any thing other than actelyne products.same with argon. oxegyn, propane, CO2 so the filler CANT fill with the wrong gas.



hope this clears some stuff up for yas