Oil and piston problem on built motor...

[Enraged78]

Yup- sounds like you and i have pretty much the exact same symptoms . . . ~500 miles and I'm dumpin in 3/4 to a full quart of M1 10w30 Full Synthetic

As for your findings on the valve guides- that is quite interesting. Because the place that had my motor last . . . while it was in there I went ahead and had them put some SS valves in, new springs & retainers, and some new bronze valve guide inserts (as opposed to entire new guides).

Although it sucks, your findings definitely have me sufficiently excited to see that the culprit may have been found. I'm wondering if I should send my head to a local shop for them to check out or just send it back to the guys that did the work.

I've mentioned my situation a few times to the owner and he was completely stumped, but said that whatever I ended up doing that they would help me out. So anyone know of a good 4G63 Head shop in the Baltimore/DC area . . . perhaps even NOVA?


On a side-note . . . if you have the $$$, I'd say throw some springs and retainers in it while it's torn apart . . . will save a slight headache later on. But if you have to wait like 3 weeks for the parts to get in . . .well that's a judgement call on your part.

Matt,

Have you spoken to the guys at Extreme?
http://www.extrememotorsports.com/

A friend of mine worked for them a while back and had nothing but good things to say. I'd ask them if they can recommend a machinist in your area, or if they have any experience with the sleeved valve guides you are using.

As far as my case goes, I've had the idea of double springs and titanium retainers dancing in my head, but I can't really spend the money on those right now. The shop that built the head went over my original bill of sale, and told me that they definately owe me valve guides and another set of valves, as well as all the work that goes along with it. However, the valves included in my bill of sale are listed as used, so that's all I would get. Not wanting to mess around with this anymore, I opted for the 1mm oversize SI stainless valves instead of springs. In the event that I REALLY want to rev over 8,000 RPM, and have a tranny that can take the abuse, I'll rip the head off and swap some springs on. It's not too bad if you have good valves and a valve job already.

If I happen to stumble across any more money to dump into the car, I think an intercooler should be next on the list anyway.

Thanks,
Matt.

 

[tsunari]

Yeah, not for this issue but when I first moved to the area I went down to their shop a few times . . . to be very blunt- I would never EVER take my car there for anything. I have had nothing but attitude from them.

Thanks for the thought though

 

[Enraged78]

Yeah, not for this issue but when I first moved to the area I went down to their shop a few times . . . to be very blunt- I would never EVER take my car there for anything. I have had nothing but attitude from them.

Thanks for the thought though

No problem. The only thing I can think of recommending for you at this point is finding a good machinist in your area through word of mouth. I have spoken to a few machinists who specialize in the 4G63 head, and they have informed me than any more than .002 clearance between the guide and the valve at any point through the guide will cause oil to leak through and burn in the combustion chamber. Mitsu recommends new guides/valves with anything more than .003 clearance, which apparently is too much. For reference, my valves had a hair over .003 clearance, which varied due to the egg-shape my guides had taken.

Do you happen to know what kind of clearances they got when they installed the sleeves in your motor?

Matt.

 

[tsunari]

Do you happen to know what kind of clearances they got when they installed the sleeves in your motor?

Matt.

I sure dont, but perhaps I could find out. The rest of the motor was blueprinted, but I don't remember seeing anything on the head.

Out of curiosity, did you opt to go with sleeves or full-out new guides?

 

[Enraged78]

I sure dont, but perhaps I could find out. The rest of the motor was blueprinted, but I don't remember seeing anything on the head.

Out of curiosity, did you opt to go with sleeves or full-out new guides?

Yeah, it's kinda funny how meticulous some builders are with the bottom end while others neglect to give you numbers for the head.

I went with full-out new guides. Bronze silicon on the intake, and some kind of hybrid for the exhast. I basically went with what the local shop recommended. I also opted for new seals, and as I mentioned in the previous post, 1mm oversize SI stainless valves. (Stock valves are stainless on the exhaust only) Keeping the stock redline in conjunction with the bigger valves should allow for a long running, reliable head.

Given what I have found with valve to guide clearances, and how I have more than one shop verifying that the head will leak oil with anything three thousandths or higher, you might want to pull your head and have a good shop check your clearances. That has proven to be the real litmus test on more than one occasion for me, and it's always better to have more than enough information than not enough. Sure beats throwing money away on parts that might not solve the problem.

Good luck,
Matt.

 

[Enraged78]

Update:

Well, I got screwed, and pretty bad at that. After taking all the numbers the first machinist got, and bringing them to the folks that sold the head to me, everything seemed fine. They were doing all the labor to fix the work they didn't do the first time, and all I was supposed to pay for was valves. Fast forward to yesterday, and I get a phone call. The machinist is not willing to do the work. He gave a few excuses, such as "well, maybe your machinist is used to working with V8 heads. Those need tighter tolerances". and "Maybe if you gave it to me first instead of having another shop look at it, I could have done something else". Both excuses were bullshit.

Basically what I was told was that the valve to valve guide clearance was at .003, which is the minimum allowable clearance according to Mitsubishi. Seeing as how it is still considered "in spec", the machinist isn't going to do it. Never mind the fact that the head is burning oil, or the fact that you can feel a lot of play in the valves between the guides. Also try to forget the fact that I paid for valve guides and they weren't installed, which leads me to believe that I paid $500 for a valve job and in reality, nothing was really done at all. When I asked where all my oil was going, they told me "It's probably from the rings.". Right. That's why the valves and head have burned oil reside all over them. That's why I have perfect compression and leakdown. That's why the old head never burned a drop of oil, and this bottom end has only 10K miles on it. Whatever.

Seeing as how the shop doesn't want to do the work, and the head only has 3,000 miles on it, I offered to have them buy the head back from me at a discount, just so I could cut my losses and buy a new head. They weren' having that either, which leads me to believe that they don't trust the machinist's work either.

So, I got screwed. I got them to drop the prices on all the parts I need to build this correctly, and then they had the balls to ask me if their machinist was going to do the work. After politely telling them to shove it, I took all my parts with me and told them they would not be seeing me again. I'm not going to mention the name of the shop here, but if anyone asks me about this shop, they will get my full opinion. This is a real shame, because most shops rely on word of mouth, and I can't recommend that anyone go there anymore. Oh well. Karma's a bi***.

So, the machinist who helped me out with my first head, as well as with this one, is going to get my business. It's going to take him a while to get it done, but at least it will be done correctly this time. In the meantime, I'm out another $600.

Tsunari, I hope your shop has a little more class than the one I've dealt with.

Matt.

 

[tsunari]

Holy crap man- that is just complete BS!!
Turns out, I got my first few dyno pulls last weekend and while on the rollers, I discovered something interesting.

When the throttle was initially rolled into, I would get a brief puff of white-ish / grey smoke, then nothing for the rest of the pull (all the way to redline). However, when throttle was let off and the engine was in some deep vacuum slowing itself down . . . blue smoke just started to roll out of the tail pipe. (I'll try and post some pix later)

So I did some more research and consensus seems to be that it is most likely valve stem seals or . . . guides. So I'm going to try and get ahold of the shop that did the headwork and see if they'll send out a set of new valve stem seals. I'd much rather try and swap those out than needlessly pull the head and ship the whole thing to them. And I'm sure they would rather throw $30 worth of seals at me to fix the problem than spend man hours re-doing the valvetrane.

Will keep you updated and good luck man

-tsunari

 

[TSIfreek]

Yea I got the same treatment when I had my head done. It was a respectfull head shop I thought and told him I wanted guides, seals and light port work I dont know how many times and when I went to pic up the head he said the guides were fine they think were idiots?? . I was like WTF.
I guess you need to tell them replace them even if they are in spec.
Replaceing guides is very time consuming to do it right and thats why no one does them. What pissed me off is that I told him I would have liked a call telling me your not going to do them instead of me driving out here and put in this posistion of paying for a head I didnt ask for.
Get it in writing or have them show you the new guides so you know they have them and they wont pull something on you is another Idea.
If it ever happens to me again Im just going to take the head without paying for it and say its not what I asked for and now I have to have someone else redo everything that Im going to have to pay for.
Thing too is they say there fine but are they going to come come over to your place and pull the head and redo it if it burns oil? I dought it.

 

[tsunari]

So let me ask you this . . . the shop said that had you let them tear it down, there might've been something they could've done about it right? So what's wrong with re-assembling the head and letting them tear it back down?

Do they not trust the shop you took it to?

Are they under the impression that by simple assembling the valves into the head that one can screw up the valve guide clearances?

And what about the fact that the guides should've been replaced as requested in the first place?

I understand that at this point you probably wouldn't want this place even THINKING about touching your parts, but to me it seems as if you payed for a service never rendered . . .

Last time I checked, if I go into say . . . a restaurant and order a <insert menu item> and never receive it . . . I dont have to pay for it

 

[steel_3d]

If you pay for shop work with a credit card, you can contest the charges and usually win in cases like this. You have to make sure that they take credit card payments beforehand. My current shop for example doesn't, and I might be shit out of luck.

 

[Enraged78]

Holy crap man- that is just complete BS!!

So I did some more research and consensus seems to be that it is most likely valve stem seals or . . . guides.

...

Will keep you updated and good luck man

-tsunari

Thanks for the ear. I apreciate it.

From what you're telling us, I'd say guide to valve clearance or seals. Keep in mind it will only be seals if they were installed incorectly, as your head has very few miles on it. Seals are cheap and easy. Valve guides not so much, which is probably why they went with sleeves to begin with. A lot of shops are very jittery or lazy when it comes to valve guides. They're always afraid of cracking the head when they remove them or put them in, which is understandable, considering that they use an air hammer with a valve guide attachment for both. With sleeve inserts, they just bore out the old guides and press the new ones in. No soft aluminum to worry about there.

If it turns out that you have too much clearance between the guides and valves, the best valve seal in the world won't stop it from smoking.

Good luck, and please let us know.
Matt.

 

[Enraged78]

Yea I got the same treatment when I had my head done. It was a respectfull head shop I thought and told him I wanted guides, seals and light port work I dont know how many times and when I went to pic up the head he said the guides were fine they think were idiots?? . I was like WTF.
I guess you need to tell them replace them even if they are in spec.
Replaceing guides is very time consuming to do it right and thats why no one does them. What pissed me off is that I told him I would have liked a call telling me your not going to do them instead of me driving out here and put in this posistion of paying for a head I didnt ask for.
Get it in writing or have them show you the new guides so you know they have them and they wont pull something on you is another Idea.
If it ever happens to me again Im just going to take the head without paying for it and say its not what I asked for and now I have to have someone else redo everything that Im going to have to pay for.
Thing too is they say there fine but are they going to come come over to your place and pull the head and redo it if it burns oil? I dought it.

That sucks man. I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know what the hell is going on here lately. I've heard from a few machinists the same thing. Shops are just getting lazier all the time. People are constantly undercutting each other on price, and it has to come from somewhere. Unfortunately, it seems to come via corner cutting. The other problem is that "in spec" is just too damned loose. It's just like compression. Mitsu 'says' that the service interval for rings isn't until 140 PSI, but if you got a new motor with 8.5 to 1 compression that put up 140 PSI, would you be pissed? I know I would. The same thing applies for heads. It's that simple.

I agree with you on the 'get it in writing part'. My bill of sale was a little more vague than it should have been. I would imagine that it is for situations just like this. "I don't SEE valve guides on this bill, do you?"

Luckily, the machinist who will be getting my head is not a scumbag. He does take a little while to do the work, and he's a little pricey, but he's VERY good.

Hopefully this will be the last time I do this, and I hope the same for you.
Good luck,
Matt.

 

[Enraged78]

So let me ask you this . . . the shop said that had you let them tear it down, there might've been something they could've done about it right? So what's wrong with re-assembling the head and letting them tear it back down?

Do they not trust the shop you took it to?

Are they under the impression that by simple assembling the valves into the head that one can screw up the valve guide clearances?

And what about the fact that the guides should've been replaced as requested in the first place?

I understand that at this point you probably wouldn't want this place even THINKING about touching your parts, but to me it seems as if you payed for a service never rendered . . .

Last time I checked, if I go into say . . . a restaurant and order a <insert menu item> and never receive it . . . I dont have to pay for it

No, it was really just a pissing contest. The shop had no problem with the fact that another machinist looked at the head. The machinist who built the head had a problem with someone pointing out faults in his shitty work. In a desperate attempt to save face, he resorted to name calling, and claimed that the machinist who found fault with his work "must be one of 'dem V8 fellers...".

The head arrived to the shop in a cardboard box, with springs in one sealed bag, retainters in another, and keepers in a sealed pill bottle. The valves were organized by where they came from and laid vertically in a punched out piece of cardboard. The head was cleaned and tested. The machinst who did the work claimed he couldn't do the work "because he didn't see any burn marks on the head". No shit, Sherlock, it was cleaned and inspected. The clearances were off, and it was sent to you to be fixed.

Yeah, I pretty much did pay for services that weren't rendered. I may have had a valve job done, and the valves were clean and cut, but not replacing the guides that I asked for is just lazy.

Oh, and by the way, I looked at the old valves since I got the head back, and you can actually FEEL the wear points on it. All up and down the valve where it meets the guide is of noticably smaller diameter than where it was not making contact. The new valves look nothing like the old ones. Constant diameter throughout the shaft.

Matt.

 

[Enraged78]

If you pay for shop work with a credit card, you can contest the charges and usually win in cases like this. You have to make sure that they take credit card payments beforehand. My current shop for example doesn't, and I might be shit out of luck.

The only problem with this was the fact that I was being a 'nice guy'. See, I used to hang out with some of these guys, and we'd go out drinking from time to time. I knew they got a 2-3% hit by using the credit card machine, so most of the time, I'd just bring them cash. Look what being nice got me.

Matt.

 

[TSIfreek]

Matt glad to hear you found someone that is honest and willing to work with you and you trust his work I have found the same thank god. There are alot of coners guys can cut when doing a head job that the average guy wont see but will be charged for it.
One thing is for sure great machine/head work is priceless.

 

[Enraged78]

Matt glad to hear you found someone that is honest and willing to work with you and you trust his work I have found the same thank god. There are alot of coners guys can cut when doing a head job that the average guy wont see but will be charged for it.
One thing is for sure great machine/head work is priceless.

Thanks, man. I appreciate the kind words. I'm glad you finally found a good machinist in your area as well.

It's really a shame, but you're absolutely right. There are a LOT of shitty machinists out there, from guys who just haven't been doing it long enough, to not having the right tools, to just being cheap. To make matters worse, it's really hard to tell good from bad. I've had guys swear by machinists I wouldn't count on to cut me a block of wood, let alone a race ready head.

I spent the last two years working part time in an engine building/dyno/performance shop, and recently the on-site machinst left for greener pastures. After speaking with the owner for a while (who happens to be a very good friend), we both came to the conclusion that it's really tough to make a living being a machinist. Mostly because very few people appreciate the hard work that goes into it, and with all the competition from poor machinists, it's hard to make any money from it.

A good machinst is worth more than his weight in gold.

Matt.