noob audio Q's

[PaulPDX]

If you want ease of installation, buy from Crutchfield.com. They usually supply vehicle specific instructions and wiring adapters. In general, speaker installation is very easy. Pretty much a matter of poping the door panels off, removing stock speakers (screws, disconnecting wires).

There are pretty much decent speakers at any price range. Again, it all depends on how much you want to spend. Infinity Kapas are very clear/clean and have great mid range.

As for subs, if you want a self amplified unit (with amp built-in) and want to save space the Bazookas do pretty ok. Although I am not a fan of ported subs. I like tight clean bass (sealed box).

 

[Attack Eagle]

If you want ease of installation, buy from Crutchfield.com. They usually supply vehicle specific instructions and wiring adapters. In general, speaker installation is very easy. Pretty much a matter of poping the door panels off, removing stock speakers (screws, disconnecting wires).

There are pretty much decent speakers at any price range. Again, it all depends on how much you want to spend. Infinity Kapas are very clear/clean and have great mid range.

As for subs, if you want a self amplified unit (with amp built-in) and want to save space the Bazookas do pretty ok. Although I am not a fan of ported subs. I like tight clean bass (sealed box).

(which is why I recommended the basslink, it's tight)
MB Quarts are good, Suprisingly PGs are good and so are the Alpine Type Rs.
Infinitys to me have always seemed to be weak in midbass and a littlke too bright in the upper ranges, But with the properly matched sub and the tweeter attenuated they can sound really good.

 

[PaulPDX]

Diamond Audio and Boston Accoustic are also pretty good. Brightness has a lot to do with tweeter placement as well. I've got Infinity Kappas now and they do sound a bit on the bright side... but the mid tones are rich unlike the Diamond, Boston, and MB speakers I have owned in the past. A good H/U with good tuning flexibility is key. One doesn't need to spend a lot to get good sounding speakers. Even cheap entry level models from the usual well recognized brands can sound good.

One other recommendation, get the foam speaker baffles from Crutchfield. They improve the sound dramatically and allow the speakers to work with a smaller airspace... making them a little more efficient. They also protect the speakers from any moisture that may build up in the door.

 

[theycallmebruce]

thanks for the recommendations. i read the infinity kappas sound good and fit well.

here's my current setup:
aftermarket HU running on stock wiring harness direct to speakers (bypass amp).
i ordered the adapter to run it to the stock amp (2 pairs of RCA to the stock 6 prong amp plug). expecting it in a few days. i'm assuming this will give me back all 6 speaker output.
not sure what i wanna do in terms of the amp yet, so the 25 bucks or so should hold me over till i decide.

since i'm only changing the door speakers for now, and assuming the dash tweeters and the rears are working properly with the factory amp, should i get full range speakers for the doors or 2 or 3 ways?
what would this do in terms of 'imaging' and how logical is full range vs. components if i want to upgrade other speakers and amp/sub in the future?

i will definitely look into the foam baffles

my h/u internal amp runs 23.2watts RMS, 52w max (what does this mean?). Where can I find the specs of the stock amp? Does it run equal or higher than this?

lots of questions being answered here, i hope this thread serves as a useful "search" reference for other audio noobs in the future!

 

[Attack Eagle]

thanks for the recommendations. i read the infinity kappas sound good and fit well.

here's my current setup:
aftermarket HU running on stock wiring harness direct to speakers (bypass amp).
i ordered the adapter to run it to the stock amp (2 pairs of RCA to the stock 6 prong amp plug). expecting it in a few days. i'm assuming this will give me back all 6 speaker output.
not sure what i wanna do in terms of the amp yet, so the 25 bucks or so should hold me over till i decide.

since i'm only changing the door speakers for now, and assuming the dash tweeters and the rears are working properly with the factory amp, should i get full range speakers for the doors or 2 or 3 ways?
what would this do in terms of 'imaging' and how logical is full range vs. components if i want to upgrade other speakers and amp/sub in the future?

Maybe someone can back me up on this, but I believe the stock infinis are either 6 ohm or 8 ohm (mine have been long gone for about 3 years) and you should not use a 4 ohm speaker on the infinity amp. It might work fine, but I believe the amp and internal xover is spec'd for 8 ohms impedence so it could react the same as a normal 4ohm aftermarket amp running into a 2 ohm load (increased distortion, thermal overload etc) due to running below specs.
If you are intent on keeping it, then you need to keep the factory speakers in my opinion.

BTW I think RMS on the infini is about 18- 20 watts, I get that much from my clarion h/u so I bypassed the amp completely using a set of xovers from a 4 ohm 6.5 component set. only problem is the tweeters, (they are crossedover too low(2x impedence as compared to 4ohm speakers = 0.5 * xover point at least on a passive xover) but they are eventually going to be separate amped (vey high xover and very low watts!) and mb quarts components in qforms will replace them. (I put my 6.5 subs in my doors already a long time ago)

Don't need to go 2 way / 3 way on door speakers if you can help it, you don't need tweeters in the doors, you need them as forward as possible.
The car is set up for components from the factory, even the wiring is run if you choose to use it, and it is "stealthy", so why not take advantage of it?

as always just my .02 cents, take it for what it is worth.
If you are interested in doing this I have posted a basic how to in electrical tech, and you can find a 4 ohm mid with 8 ohm tweeter xover on parts express.com under the home audio section that should work fine. Me i'd replace the dash tweeters w/ 4ohm put the xovers under the seat, and mids in the doors. and tap the 6x9s there, then when you later want to amp it all your connections are ready and waiting.

 

[PaulPDX]

Bypass stock amp completely. Using stock speaker wiring... get 6.5" separates in the front. Tweeters in the dash facing up replacing the stock dash speakers. High frequency sounds are directional. The windshield will reflect the sound towards you and the location will raise the sound stage. Put the woofers in the doors, place the crossover either under the dash or in the doors (if there is room, whichever is easier for wiring etc.) 6x9 2 way in the rear or keep stock. Rears are for fill... so, not as important to have clear sound, unless you are sadistic enough to make people ride in the "baby seats" in the back often.

 

[theycallmebruce]

shopping for component speakers now.

i'd have to wire the front speaker level output to the crossover since i'm not running an external amp, correct? (not using the pre-amp RCA output)

the crossover would be a 2-way since i've got 1 set of input and 2 sets of output?
what's a good crossover point? 3000?
please comment on my diagram to let me know if i'm on the right track.

 

[PaulPDX]

i'd have to wire the front speaker level output to the crossover since i'm not running an external amp, correct? (not using the pre-amp RCA output)

Correct.

the crossover would be a 2-way since i've got 1 set of input and 2 sets of output?

Yup.

what's a good crossover point? 3000?
please comment on my diagram to let me know if i'm on the right track.

Crossover point is usually predetermined by the manufacturer to match the woofer and tweeter design; nothing you really need to be concerned with. Diagram is good. In terms of installation, it will probably make life easier if you run long speaker wires from the back of the deck to the amp and then cut / splice the factory wires close to the amp. Much easier than crawling under the dash working upsidedown etc. You may also want to use spade or bullet connectors to make it a plug and play affair when you decide to return everything back to stock. Another tip, and you may already know this, once you've got a mass of speaker wires and not sure which pair is for which speaker, you can use a AA battery or similar and touch the wires to the ends of the battery. You'll hear static and that'll tell you which speaker you've got.

 

[Attack Eagle]

bruce.
if you get component set it will have the crossover, if you are going to get just the mid driver and keep the factory tweeter about 3500 would be good (but it will have to be a home audio one because of the 8 ohm tweeter mixed with 4 ohm driver).

You wont need the infini amp at all, you can run all 4 corners by direct wiring to the plug,
(see my tech article under wiring on this site). It has the wires leading to the doors tweeters and rear speakers all on one plug. Cut it back about 1 inch (so you can reinstall it later if you want to) the clip the retaining clip to give you more slack and ease of positioning for the xovers. You can drop the head unit's speaker level outputs down to the passenger area very easily under carpet. Wire up the xover to tweeter and mid and connect the head unit wires ONE ATA TIME (so you don't cross wire) to the correct speaker.

Total time should be less than 2 hours including installing the head (pull the seat out its easier!)

Heres my article with the wire colors and what they are, and a really ugly picture of it mid reinstall.
how to bypass 2g factory infinity amp (click here! click here!)

 

[theycallmebruce]

how about PG Tantrum-X? they seem to be discontinued, but are pretty inexpensive ($109 shipped). Pricewise, they seem to be between the Octane-R and Ti series.
70w RMS 140 peak.

anyone have experience with these?

 

[PaulPDX]

PG makes good stuff. Can't go wrong with any of their products. As long as you stick to the main stream brands... you'll be OK.

 

[theycallmebruce]

awesome. just put the order in for the PGs!

the foam baffles on crutchfield don't come in 6.5". Only 6.75" (slim and regular).
I guess I can just sorta cram these in to fit?
the slim is 3 3/8" deep and the regular is 4.5". I guess I can order these when i find out how deep my speakers are.

what about dynamating the doors? good idea? if i'm gonna have the panel off anyway, now would be a good time to do it, if i'm gonna...

 

[Attack Eagle]

if you want to.
me i'd rather dynamat the spare tire well, thats where i hear most of my exterior noise from

 

[theycallmebruce]

don't mean to bring this back from the dead, but just an update.

i got the PG octane-ZRs and finally got a chance to install them today.
Popped open the door and it it seems like the bracket to hold the speaker really is 6.75" as stated on Crutchfield and not truly 6.5 (I had the Infinity system)
Installed them anyway, drilling new holes in the plastic bracket to mount the speakers. Used the foam baffles as suggested and busted driver side door speaker is fixed

Sounds MUCH better. I turned up the volume to like 3 or 4X what I usually did when I had the busted speaker and no buzzing and stuff.

I did everything slow, so the first speaker took me like 2 hours, but the second one only took about 40 minutes.

Ran out of daylight so didn't get to install the crossovers and tweeters yet, but I took out the stock amp and left the wiring harnesses intact so next weekend it should be cake (except maybe for the mounting 1" tweeters in 3" holes part.

I'm probably gonna mount the crossovers where the stock amp used to be. Probably double-sided tape to the stock amp bracket. Not too fond of putting those big things in the doors, not to mention the potential for moisture and dirt to cause problems.

Thanks again for the help

 

[Attack Eagle]

don't mean to bring this back from the dead, but just an update.

i got the PG octane-ZRs and finally got a chance to install them today.
Popped open the door and it it seems like the bracket to hold the speaker really is 6.75" as stated on Crutchfield and not truly 6.5 (I had the Infinity system)
Installed them anyway, drilling new holes in the plastic bracket to mount the speakers. Used the foam baffles as suggested and busted driver side door speaker is fixed

Sounds MUCH better. I turned up the volume to like 3 or 4X what I usually did when I had the busted speaker and no buzzing and stuff.

I did everything slow, so the first speaker took me like 2 hours, but the second one only took about 40 minutes.

Ran out of daylight so didn't get to install the crossovers and tweeters yet, but I took out the stock amp and left the wiring harnesses intact so next weekend it should be cake (except maybe for the mounting 1" tweeters in 3" holes part.

I'm probably gonna mount the crossovers where the stock amp used to be. Probably double-sided tape to the stock amp bracket. Not too fond of putting those big things in the doors, not to mention the potential for moisture and dirt to cause problems.

Thanks again for the help

excellent!
yes mine were 6.75 too, but the 6.5 fits perfectly in the factory bracket.
you can lose the amp bracket too. The seats are really close to the floor, and they will be easier to do on the floor. I tried velcro but ut did not stick, so I just pushed mine over against the ttunnel and they haven't moved since.

Did you find any extra bolts when you pulled the plactic off the doors? Now that you have taken the door panels off its the perfect time to check the window regulator bolts, mine were either all loose or had fallen out. my window actually fell and damaged the tint because I did not check them when I shoudl have. I'm going to make it a 6 month thing.

BTW there are 4 bolts holding the window to the inner door skin. Make sure you have all 4.

I did not run baffles because of clearance issues ( I have subs not mids in the doors). there isn't enough room for a baffle, and i actually need to space the speakers in a bout 1/16 to 1/8th of an inchjust the thickness of the tint as the magnets barely touch the tint.

Hope my instructional helps when you go to drop in those new tweeters.

 

[Jebus[tuning]]

Just a question, I have the Tweeters, but I'm pretty sure my car didn't have the stock Infinity sound system...

 

[theycallmebruce]

yes mine were 6.75 too, but the 6.5 fits perfectly in the factory bracket.

when you say they fit perfectly. do you mean in the metal bracket that holds the infinity speaker? i didn't reuse that because it looked like i would have to drill out the magnet on the back of the bracket. I just drilled new holes in the plastic piece that screws into the door. It seems pretty secure, but my car has a ton of vibration due to 4 prothane motor mounts and no balance shafts. If it comes loose over time and i have problems, I guess I'll have no choice but to do that. I just didn't want to destroy the original speaker in case I needed to return it to stock.

I know drilling out the bracket is required for the tweeter setup due to the huge size difference.

As far as putting the crossovers go, I think there wil be enough clearance to put it on the stock amp bracket. I don't want to have to put another piece in there and I'm not comfortable with electrical components like that sitting on bare carpet. the crossovers are about the same height as the stock amp so it should be ok.

I'll probably try to tackle the rest of it this coming weekend.

And I didn't find any extra bolts in the door panels and my windows work well (except for the notorious rattle). I should've done the door rattle fix while I had it off, but I barely had enough time as it is to do the 2 speakers and the rattle when closing the door with the window down is something I can live with.



Looking further down the road now, I should get 2 way or full range 6x9 in the rear? Now that I can get some good volume on the system, the rears start to buzz a bit when I have it turned up. I know I don't gotta do too much with these as they are for fill, but I guess it should be at least able to match the power of the other speakers.

 

[Attack Eagle]

when you say they fit perfectly. do you mean in the metal bracket that holds the infinity speaker? i didn't reuse that because it looked like i would have to drill out the magnet on the back of the bracket. I just drilled new holes in the plastic piece that screws into the door. It seems pretty secure, but my car has a ton of vibration due to 4 prothane motor mounts and no balance shafts. If it comes loose over time and i have problems, I guess I'll have no choice but to do that. I just didn't want to destroy the original speaker in case I needed to return it to stock.

I know drilling out the bracket is required for the tweeter setup due to the huge size difference.

As far as putting the crossovers go, I think there wil be enough clearance to put it on the stock amp bracket. I don't want to have to put another piece in there and I'm not comfortable with electrical components like that sitting on bare carpet. the crossovers are about the same height as the stock amp so it should be ok.

I'll probably try to tackle the rest of it this coming weekend.

And I didn't find any extra bolts in the door panels and my windows work well (except for the notorious rattle). I should've done the door rattle fix while I had it off, but I barely had enough time as it is to do the 2 speakers and the rattle when closing the door with the window down is something I can live with.



Looking further down the road now, I should get 2 way or full range 6x9 in the rear? Now that I can get some good volume on the system, the rears start to buzz a bit when I have it turned up. I know I don't gotta do too much with these as they are for fill, but I guess it should be at least able to match the power of the other speakers.

The plastic piece, I had to cut out the back of it for magnet clearance, but they only need the holes drilled for the 6.5.

When you first take off your panels you won't find the bolts for the window, they will be behind the plastic barrier. If youve got a rattle probably one or more has come loose or fallen out. Get tht corrected when you can. Its a pain but worth it. Maybe threadlocker?

two way 6x9s work good, but if you can afford components for the rear that would work too. Depends on whats back there now.

As far as xovers, mine were thicker than the factory amp, and with the plastic bottom (an the fact that this was only supposed to be temporary until I amp'd the system (3.5 years ago)) I had to get rid of the bracket. Think I might try to find one of the old 20x2 sony amps just to power the dash tweeters when I amp the rest of the system and add my mdb quarts and q form in.

Anyway best of luck, and i am sure you are going to enjoy it. glad to be of help

 

[theycallmebruce]

well, another update on this audio project slowly turning into a monster for my wallet

installed the tweeters and got some pioneer 3-ways for the rear and installed those. the imaging is great and the sound is crisp, but the system lacks oomph. i guess this is where amping and subwoofers come in.

the specs of my speakers:
Phoenix Gold Octane-ZR component set for mid and dash 75w RMS 150 max
Pioneer 6x9 40 RMS 240 max.

can i go with a 4x75 amp even though it goes over the 'nominal' rating of the rears?

also, what would you recommend for amp wattage for a pair of small subs?
i'm considering bazooka tubes or a pair of 8"
don't want earthshattering bass. just something to fill the void that my system lacks at the moment.

 

[PaulPDX]

well, another update on this audio project slowly turning into a monster for my wallet

No pain. No gain.

installed the tweeters and got some pioneer 3-ways for the rear and installed those. the imaging is great and the sound is crisp, but the system lacks oomph. i guess this is where amping and subwoofers come in.

Ding. Ding. Ding.

can i go with a 4x75 amp even though it goes over the 'nominal' rating of the rears?

Yes. It's always better to overdrive speakers than underdrive.

also, what would you recommend for amp wattage for a pair of small subs?
i'm considering bazooka tubes or a pair of 8"
don't want earthshattering bass. just something to fill the void that my system lacks at the moment.

If you don't want earthshattering bass then what are you doing talking about twin 8" subs? One is good enough, but I recommend a single 10" sub in a sealed box... which leads to my second point on subs.

Which subs to get depend largely on what kind of sound you like. Lots of people run ported subs because the ports look cool, gives them a place to put there thingy, or likes to play their music very loud to make up for their lack of whateve, etc. etc.

Ported sub enclosures will give you more volume without needing a lot of power. Sealed enclosures will give you purity of sound at the expense of volume. If you like clean sound a single 10 in a sealed box will do more than just fine. As for amps for the 10... well, depends on which sub you get. Each sub has a recommended power rating, like speakers, it's better to overdrive than underdrive. See if you can find yourself a old Rockford D class 300w or 350w amp. These have been discontinuted (cheap) and sound great. Then, find a good sub to go with it. Infinity, Kicker Comp, PG, etc.

 

[theycallmebruce]

great. thanks for the advice. i've started looking at 10" subs.
what is 'dual voice coil' and the related resistance?
from what i understand the system components should all run at 4 ohms?

i'm gonna go for a sealed box. i like clean sound.
should i just get a sealed box from circuit city, best buy, etc and put a better sub in there? or should i pick out a sub and take it to an audio shop to make an enclosure? how much does that usually run?

it doesn't matter which way the sub faces because low frequency sound is non-directional, correct?

 

[theycallmebruce]

i see a lot of subs for sale preloaded in enclosures.
is MTX a good brand? they seem to be a bit less expensive than infinity, kicker.

some of the ones i was considering:
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13326

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12166

http://www.cardomain.com/item/KIC03TC10

the last one (kicker comp) seems to be weaker, with a 250w max.

now that i'm amping the system, will the extra 600 to 800 watt require anything special in terms of power supply?

 

[Redmachine]

just a 4 gauge wiring kit,, for 600-1100 watts, anything over it is recommended you go with 0/1 gauge. Don't think that a sub with a lower peak handling is crap, they aren't they are just made to put out the most sound for the smaller amps.
I have 2 RF punchZ 12's in my trunk powered by a RF mono amp that peaks at 900 watts, they get continuous 300 watts in parallel. They hit real hard, but that is also du to the deck I have (sony m 8800cdx) it has 4 volt preouts which help with the amount of signal you feed the amp. Anyways it sounds as good as my wifes all audiobahn set up with subs that handle 2000 watts peak(btw we've been running that setup, flame q 10's and the 2200t amp for well over a year no problems, and It is LOUD, so whoever said they were junk, they are not. Don't overlook them, but don't get them from circuit city, they sell the lower quality audiobahn) As a matter of fact they hit so good we have to buy a new box because they are ripping it apart

 

[PaulPDX]

i see a lot of subs for sale preloaded in enclosures.
is MTX a good brand? they seem to be a bit less expensive than infinity, kicker.

some of the ones i was considering:
http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=13326

http://www.onlinecarstereo.com/CarAudio/ProductDetail.aspx?ProductID=12166

http://www.cardomain.com/item/KIC03TC10

the last one (kicker comp) seems to be weaker, with a 250w max.

now that i'm amping the system, will the extra 600 to 800 watt require anything special in terms of power supply?

Dual voice coil subs are basically two speakers in one. You can wire them up to run a 2 ohm load or a 8 ohm load if the coils are 4 ohms each. If you have a an amp that runs 150 watts at 4 ohms and is stable at 2 ohms than theoretically you can squeeze 300 watts out of it at 2 ohms (typically) at the expense of an increase in noise (hardly noticeable). You don't need a ton of power to get good bass. A 80 watt amp can still drive a matched sub and produce good sound. For now, don't trouble yourself with all the tech jargons and top of the line this and that. Follow the "keep it simple stupid" rule of thumb. You're not going to be running decible drags anyway, why worry about power?

MTX is good. One of my first sealed boxes was a small loaded 8" MTX wedge. Sounded great. 8" will do fine but will not be able to produce some of the really low bass lines you would here in electronic music, which is what I usually listen to when I'm on the road, mindless driving music. Otherwise, 8" will do just fine.

You can also build your own enclosures if you are handy with tools. Plenty of how-to turtorials online. All you need is a good saw, 3/4" MDF, some carpet, and poly fill.

4 gauge wiring is plenty enough.

 

[Attack Eagle]

the kicker comp VR are very tight as are the Alpine type Rs in 10 or 12

I have an infinity basslink right now for temporary sub fill and it runs nicely at 1/4 gain no boost, and the xover set to about 100 hz. (4 ohm outputs) However it is simply not as tight as a sealed enclosure.

you can run a 2 ohm total load if you get a sub with dual 4 ohm voice coils, most kickers and PGs produce maximum wattage bridged into 2ohms.

don't look at the 14.4 volt ratings, look at the 12v ratings, you will rarely exceed 13.0 wiht your system on.


Also please invest in a good active crossover (3 way) that can be set for front rear and sub, if you amplify the interior also
Coustic used to make really good ones that I had excellent results with.