New future goals, and considering Nitrous E316g setup!

[Black_Bullet]

I had it hooked up to the fog light switch. I did the mod on vfaq.com so I could use the fog lights any time. I just used the factory wiring to activate the nitrous. I didnt like the activation switch on the left side of the steering wheel though. I would have to switch hands to shift just to turn it on. It took to much time. I redid the car and used the wire for the button on the end of the wiper switch. Its the one for the cruise control. Then I had a main arm switch that would give the system power. The cruise button would ground out the relay I used and would spray the nos only when pushed. I am using dsmlink on this car so I had the safey features wired up through the ECU.

On my EVO3 16G setup I was running 26degrees of timing that would settle down to 23-24 degrees by the end of the run this was before the spray. I added more fuel through the maf-t so it lowered my timing, so with spray the timing was close to what it was without spray if that makes any sense.

Thats a lot of timing. I know the cylinder pressures can get pretty intense with all that timing, especially on high boost with nitrous. Thats why I was asking, I dont want to tune the car too aggressively, I havent heard too much talk on how guys tune their nitrous setups, or what can be expected.

I do realize the boost will spike really hard initially on the spray, but will this just look like a large boost spike, or will it actually aid the turbo in holding boost longer to redline?
For example, say the mbc is set at 25psi and I fall to 23 at redline, if I spray is it possible that it will spike 30psi but only fall to 25psi at redline for even more added top end power?

 

[1qkfwd]

You have to love the aggressive 1G timing maps. Just think all that was done with 100-91 mix. I think if I was at a lower elevation I would have to run a lower boost level or find a way to lower the timing.

I never really paid attention to the boost gauge while on the Nitrous. My eye was always stuck on the air fuel gauge just to make sure I didn't lean out. You would tune the nitrous just as they suggest. Start with the recomended jetting that they have listed. The only time you have to worry about your timing is when you start running more than a 50 shot. I will have to find my nos notes to see what shot requires how much timing retard. If you start with a 50 shot you shouldn't have to worry about retarding the timing at all. If you want to play it safe the first go around you can run one jet size bigger on the fuel side to keep knock down to a minimum. If you don't get knock then start leaning it to the air/fuel mixture you are looking for. I did find that with running nos its beter to run 1 point richer on your air/fuel. So if you have your car tuned for a 12.1:1 fuel mixture then while on the bottle run 11:1. I guess with how high cylinder pressures get i like to play it safe. Its just like tuning boost start rich with low timing and then lean it out and slowly add timing till you find the sweet spot.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Thanks for the info...Im going to be using it with e85 though, and that stuff takes a lot to make it knock... ^

 

[Kevin Jewer]

I would get on the dyno to tune timing with a 100 shot. Start 2-3 degrees retarded from your normal settings, then add it back in 1 degree at a time. If it picks up good power with each degree (~10 hp), it will take it. If you're only picking up a couple HP per degree take it back out, cylinder pressure is getting up there and you've reached the point of diminishing return.

For reference, I was running my EVO8 with the wastegate vacuum line diconnected (max boost) plus a 75 shot on race gas, AFR around 11.5:1 and timing set to 12-18 degrees across the gear. Using DSMlink to control it. The car loved it. I was running ARPs and stock EVO gasket, FWIW. Single fogger wet, in the UICP about a foot before the TB. DSMlink controled the nitrous so it shut off when on rev limiters, over 2 degrees of knock, and so on. That plus non-projected plugs saved my motor at least twice when high bottle pressure caused a lean condition. I didn't see any change in boost pressure when the nitrous came on, but that's most likely because the compressor was already maxed out. With a high flowing WG setup, nitrous shouldn't affect boost. Otherwise, it would put you in what is effectively a boost creep situation much earlier than you would be without the nitrous.

I personally feel that a dry shot will be safe on a fuel cut based rev limiter, since with no fuel, there's no combustion. I run a direct port dry setup on the RWD and have yet to try this myself, but I'd like to at some point. Others have done it succesfully for years. I don't think I would trust a wet shot on fuel cut. And I don't like the idea of either of them on an ignition cut. But again, I haven't tried it.

 

[H82lose91]

Have you ran the current setup on E85 and found what your max boost is and what you can get away with for timing? If not, i suggest you do that first and then start out small on the spray, say a 50shot. I ran a 50shot on a 14b for a night. When it hit, it felt like a semi ran into the back of the car. I have seen guys pick up 75whp on turbo cars running just a 50shot.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

On the EVO I didn't see any additional gains over what the jet size indicated. A 30 shot got me 33 whp, 50 shot got me 50 hp, and the 75 shot got me 80 hp, for what it's worth. I think at much higher nitrous flow rates you may get much more of that cooling effect that should provide the additional gains.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I would get on the dyno to tune timing with a 100 shot. Start 2-3 degrees retarded from your normal settings, then add it back in 1 degree at a time. If it picks up good power with each degree (~10 hp), it will take it. If you're only picking up a couple HP per degree take it back out, cylinder pressure is getting up there and you've reached the point of diminishing return.

For reference, I was running my EVO8 with the wastegate vacuum line diconnected (max boost) plus a 75 shot on race gas, AFR around 11.5:1 and timing set to 12-18 degrees across the gear. Using DSMlink to control it. The car loved it. I was running ARPs and stock EVO gasket, FWIW. Single fogger wet, in the UICP about a foot before the TB. DSMlink controled the nitrous so it shut off when on rev limiters, over 2 degrees of knock, and so on. That plus non-projected plugs saved my motor at least twice when high bottle pressure caused a lean condition. I didn't see any change in boost pressure when the nitrous came on, but that's most likely because the compressor was already maxed out. With a high flowing WG setup, nitrous shouldn't affect boost. Otherwise, it would put you in what is effectively a boost creep situation much earlier than you would be without the nitrous.

I personally feel that a dry shot will be safe on a fuel cut based rev limiter, since with no fuel, there's no combustion. I run a direct port dry setup on the RWD and have yet to try this myself, but I'd like to at some point. Others have done it succesfully for years. I don't think I would trust a wet shot on fuel cut. And I don't like the idea of either of them on an ignition cut. But again, I haven't tried it.

Thanks for your post. I always appreciate your information.
I already run non projected plugs, actually I picked that up from some of your posts a while back.

I run an 38mm ebay external wastegate with punishment recirculated 02 housing on this e316g setup. What do you think, will I still get a massive spike in boost like others have mentioned, or will external gate take care of that? I didnt check to see whether if the ppl claiming the boost spike from the nitrous was internally gated or not.

I completely agree with your idea of dyno tuning the car when I start spraying.
I actually already had that planned. Your advice about the timing makes perfect sense and you couldnt have put it any better. I was completely clueless of how the cylinder pressure would be in relation to the timing advance once on the spray. I know e85 will allow of lot before knock sets in, but I know a motor can be blow without any knock just due to cylinder pressure... I will use your information when its time to tune.

I still have some time before I will be doing this nitrous setup. Iam just gathering information now, I still need to get a stronger clutch setup in this car first before it will handle any spray. Then after that I am going to purchase another vehicle ( a little truck) for a daily driver and have mines just as a track/ weekend warrior, and thats when I will start spraying.

Have you ran the current setup on E85 and found what your max boost is and what you can get away with for timing? If not, i suggest you do that first and then start out small on the spray, say a 50shot. I ran a 50shot on a 14b for a night. When it hit, it felt like a semi ran into the back of the car. I have seen guys pick up 75whp on turbo cars running just a 50shot.

I havent tuned with E85 yet. I cant run it until I get a stronger clutch or I will slip.
I current run 25psi falling to 23lbs at redline on 93 octane with a clean tune and 19 degs peak timing... I dont plan to crank the boost any more than that even with the ethanol. I am thinking with e85 and all boost I will be sitting somewere around 23degs peak timing with 11.9-12.1 afr's. ( This is just me recalling something similar to my race gas tune.) On the spray Id start with less timing and richer afr to be safe. I know my eyes are big now but I wont be surprised that after I tune with e85 and see how much power I make on that, that I just chill and stop with a 75 shot and not venture into the 100 shot territory.

Felt like a semi ran into the back of the car... Hmm, I like the way that sounds

 

[Black_Bullet]

Anyone else with small turbo nitrous experience want to chime in?

 

[rhamlinii]

Anyone else with small turbo nitrous experience want to chime in?

Do it, I've had nothing but good results. 16g with a 175 shot hits and feels great.

 

[JayRolla]

Do it, I've had nothing but good results. 16g with a 175 shot hits and feels great.

What about on a stock long block? What timing where you hitting on the spray?

 

[turbotalon1g]

More importantly what kind of transmission are you guys using?

 

[gixrman]

In a Turbo mag 2007 article they spooled up a GT35R with a ZEX wet kit with a 75 shot and got a 110hp increase from 4k to 8k on a Honda B18c. Nitrous increases exuast gas energy which spools the turbo faster.

 

[Black_Bullet]

What about on a stock long block? What timing where you hitting on the spray?

+1 ....
Also what turbo was this on, and how much boost. 175 shot is probably much more aggressive than Id ever want... 100shot seems like tops for me.

More importantly what kind of transmission are you guys using?

This could be something to keep in mind, the massive torque spikes of a nitrous setup could definitly put the not so invincible dsm trannys at risk.
I dont plan on spraying in 1st or 2nd gear due to traction, but a achillies heal of the dsm trannies are the 4th gears are too small/weak and guys with 500+ ft/lbs of torque they have been known to literally strip the teeth off of that gear.

In a Turbo mag 2007 article they spooled up a GT35R with a ZEX wet kit with a 75 shot and got a 110hp increase from 4k to 8k on a Honda B18c. Nitrous increases exuast gas energy which spools the turbo faster.

Yes so far Im reading it causes massive boost spikes etc.
I am curious whether that still applies to me since I am running an external wastegate on my evo316g setup.

 

[selmerguy]

I ran a 55 shot on my 14b at 18 PSI. It would spike the boost to about 21 PSI until the turbo ran out of wheel. I run the same shot on a 50 trim now and it spikes 3 more PSI than the wastegate is set at. Not massive but enough that you need to pay attention to tuning. The 50 trim is using a external gate. Nitrous is great. You can feel the extra power but you need to tune youe setup carefully. Timing is the key for my setup.

 

[Black_Bullet]

As far as what, knock counts? What fuel do you run?

 

[turbotalon1g]

Thanks for addressing my question black bullet.
I already destroyed a center diff with a 16G on E85. Sheared a 3rd gear.
So i am really scared to run nitrous and i have seen the TQ results on V8s and the fact that our transmissions can't handle a lot of power even when built (unless you get stg4/premium/top of the line) makes me too scared to use it.

 

[rhamlinii]

What about on a stock long block? What timing where you hitting on the spray?

, stock block, head, and intake cam. Timing is pulled out via cam angle sensor. I'm actually putting timing back in it with dsmlink. However the cam angle is set to 0. I have nothing bad to say about the car. It's on a Stock trans with a welded center diff. It sprays as soon as it's in 2nd gear and can break the tire loose on the 175 shot untill the act 2600 started to slip. Rx7 rims 225/50r16 dunlop street tires. On antilag it should be good for average 1.6-1.7 60ft on street tires on the street on boost alone. It has never been taken to the track, so i'm not into bench racing the car. I've made some money off the car in Rockville Md, and raced some turbo integra from Bowie, MD. He said he'd set the dsm out because he made over 500fwhp and we were on a "stock" turbo. He just wanted to use his slicks, and he would set us out 3 cars. His work was done by inline pro, so he said. Once I saw he didn't have a visable boost-controller. I knew we would win at 1st. After the race he said honda-data contolled everything, inculding his boost controll. We still took 600 from them, and beat them by 9 cars while the car was at 60% percent throttle in 5th gear going thru the finish line. The integra still went thru at over 130mph, and we did the same race again for 300. That ended with the exact same results but worse becasue he stayed in it to prove a point. He also raced a supercharged vette on Drag Radial. The kid said his father has been 10s. So we took the 5 cars, 100 dollars for each car he gave us, as everyone that night seemed really cocky. However he got spanked by more the 6 cars, with the dsm shutting down at like what would be the 1000ft mark and putting it in neutral. The man declined a second race. The two races above was just on the 150 shot. Q16 is amazing, as the car has no knock with only a total of only 3 degrees of timing missing on a 1g timing map at full throttle. It has spiked as hard as 27psi steady, with maybe 32ish psi on the flash on nitrous, but it still has a stock non-ported 02 housing. As it was said about the 14b. It runs out of breath as the rpm increases. I started my new job, so I haven't been able to help with putting a new clutch in the car. So his car is just sitting now, but i'm in the market for anther AWD shell.

Nitrous is so much fun.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Thanks for addressing my question black bullet.
I already destroyed a center diff with a 16G on E85. Sheared a 3rd gear.
So i am really scared to run nitrous and i have seen the TQ results on V8s and the fact that our transmissions can't handle a lot of power even when built (unless you get stg4/premium/top of the line) makes me too scared to use it.

Yea man, maybe your center diff was already on its way out.
A good condition dsm driveline with the standard nessecary clutch upgrades should be able to handle whatever a 16g can throw at it even on e85 pushed full tilt.
Unless you were driving the shit out of the car...
Do you have any times or know what power you were making when you sheared 3rd or messed up your center diff?

I will keep this kind of stuff in mind and not get power happy.
Theres a good chance with my setup pushed as hard as it can go on e85 I may not even consider a 100shot, drive train definitly wouldnt be happy, perhaps Id just chill and only mess with a 50shot on the norm and 75 shots tops.
For my income and with what im trying to do with mines, I dont need to do more than I should be, so I will be realistic about what I ask of this drivetrain/ motor...

, stock block, head, and intake cam. Timing is pulled out via cam angle sensor. I'm actually putting timing back in it with dsmlink. However the cam angle is set to 0. I have nothing bad to say about the car. It's on a Stock trans with a welded center diff. It sprays as soon as it's in 2nd gear and can break the tire loose on the 175 shot untill the act 2600 started to slip. Rx7 rims 225/50r16 dunlop street tires. On antilag it should be good for average 1.6-1.7 60ft on street tires on the street on boost alone. It has never been taken to the track, so i'm not into bench racing the car. I've made some money off the car in Rockville Md, and raced some turbo integra from Bowie, MD. He said he'd set the dsm out because he made over 500fwhp and we were on a "stock" turbo. He just wanted to use his slicks, and he would set us out 3 cars. His work was done by inline pro, so he said. Once I saw he didn't have a visable boost-controller. I knew we would win at 1st. After the race he said honda-data contolled everything, inculding his boost controll. We still took 600 from them, and beat them by 9 cars while the car was at 60% percent throttle in 5th gear going thru the finish line. The integra still went thru at over 130mph, and we did the same race again for 300. That ended with the exact same results but worse becasue he stayed in it to prove a point. He also raced a supercharged vette on Drag Radial. The kid said his father has been 10s. So we took the 5 cars, 100 dollars for each car he gave us, as everyone that night seemed really cocky. However he got spanked by more the 6 cars, with the dsm shutting down at like what would be the 1000ft mark and putting it in neutral. The man declined a second race. The two races above was just on the 150 shot. Q16 is amazing, as the car has no knock with only a total of only 3 degrees of timing missing on a 1g timing map at full throttle. It has spiked as hard as 27psi steady, with maybe 32ish psi on the flash on nitrous, but it still has a stock non-ported 02 housing. As it was said about the 14b. It runs out of breath as the rpm increases. I started my new job, so I haven't been able to help with putting a new clutch in the car. So his car is just sitting now, but i'm in the market for anther AWD shell.

Nitrous is so much fun.

The Rx7 rims are awesome, I run those with the same size tires as you mentioned except I run Hankook Rs2s, best 60s my car has is 1.7 60ft, and also cool kill stories, Id like to see a vid or something of that car in action on the spray. I bet the torque is massive. So have you had any driveline issues yet due to the torque of your setup?

What disk were you running with that 2600 when you began slipping?
I just recently got a fresh ACT2600 and SBC kevlar disk and my tranny is off now and I am in the process of pulling my old tired burnt up clutch set up in exchange for that.
I hope it can hold whatever I throw at it.

 

[rhamlinii]

Yea man, maybe your center diff was already on its way out.
A good condition dsm driveline with the standard nessecary clutch upgrades should be able to handle whatever a 16g can throw at it even on e85 pushed full tilt.
Unless you were driving the shit out of the car...
Do you have any times or know what power you were making when you sheared 3rd or messed up your center diff?

I will keep this kind of stuff in mind and not get power happy.
Theres a good chance with my setup pushed as hard as it can go on e85 I may not even consider a 100shot, drive train definitly wouldnt be happy, perhaps Id just chill and only mess with a 50shot on the norm and 75 shots tops.
For my income and with what im trying to do with mines, I dont need to do more than I should be, so I will be realistic about what I ask of this drivetrain/ motor...



The Rx7 rims are awesome, I run those with the same size tires as you mentioned except I run Hankook Rs2s, best 60s my car has is 1.7 60ft, and also cool kill stories, Id like to see a vid or something of that car in action on the spray. I bet the torque is massive. So have you had any driveline issues yet due to the torque of your setup?

What disk were you running with that 2600 when you began slipping?
I just recently got a fresh ACT2600 and SBC kevlar disk and my tranny is off now and I am in the process of pulling my old tired burnt up clutch set up in exchange for that.
I hope it can hold whatever I throw at it.

No driveline issuses, and it seems with most of the trannies that i've destoyed were done by shifting. Only once did I actully ever strip off the teeth on a gear. That was just a wired thing that happend to me. With this car you can shift the car with-out worrying about falling out of boost, so why try to shift super fast? I see the trans holding up for a while (knock on wood). It does have some of work to keep it on the road, but it's a fun car to drive. Off the bottle it's your average 13 seond dsm. So it's alot like Dr. Jackel and Mr.Hyde. The clutch uses an act street disc. Unless you feel like breaking, leave the puck clutches alone. Were going to try the act 2900 pound clutch I had for my car. Whenever I get around to working on the car and finish, maybe I could get some video of the car.

 

[Black_Bullet]

No driveline issuses, and it seems with most of the trannies that i've destoyed were done by shifting. Only once did I actully ever strip off the teeth on a gear. That was just a wired thing that happend to me. With this car you can shift the car with-out worrying about falling out of boost, so why try to shift super fast? I see the trans holding up for a while (knock on wood). It does have some of work to keep it on the road, but it's a fun car to drive. Off the bottle it's your average 13 seond dsm. So it's alot like Dr. Jackel and Mr.Hyde. The clutch uses an act street disc. Unless you feel like breaking, leave the puck clutches alone. Were going to try the act 2900 pound clutch I had for my car. Whenever I get around to working on the car and finish, maybe I could get some video of the car.

Cool, I was debating on a 2900 but was steered away from it.
Couldve been necessary though. Vids would be nice, and also do you shift with the NLTS?
I always use it, I dont think it puts any more harm to the trans, hell it helps me shift better
but I will keep that in mind to take it easy thru the gears since I always enter the next gear in boost anyway.

I was never too fond of the act street disk, nor the 6-4 pucks.
I have heard great things about the kevlar, and have even ran one myself before.
They have great wear characteristics and good holding capabilities with a strong pressure plate...

Heres a recent thread of mines that I just updated about my clutch adventure.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/dri...ct2900-vs-act2600-useing-sbc-kevlar-disk.html

 

[turbotalon1g]

My car has gone 11.7@120 so far. Like i said i am really scared to use the NOS, i might actually just sell the kit till i can decide what to do.

 

[Black_Bullet]

My car has gone 11.7@120 so far. Like i said i am really scared to use the NOS, i might actually just sell the kit till i can decide what to do.

You can sell it to me .

What other worth mentioning mods do you have with your setup if you dont mind me asking?

I should have some new track times with my e316g setup next month if everything works right with this new clutch setup etc. My goals are getting into the high 11s on straight 93 octane first which shouldnt be too hard and then Ill start pushing this thing on some e85 after I get another vehicle as a daily and THEN experimenting with nitrous if my motors up to it...

 

[turbotalon1g]

IF you want it let me know. Its 100% complete.

My setup is stock bottom end w/ARPs, HKS 264/272, stock IM, stock intake tube. FMIC w/2.5" pipes, 235/45/17 all season tires. 3" turboback, E85, 950s,dsmlink. Car is pretty close to stock weigh need to weigh it again though cause I am continuously putting more into it. DXD/SBC clutch. Welded center diff.

I basically want nitrous so that i can play with the big boys but i don't want to destroy a built tranny.

I plan on switching cams next year maybe going to a bigger turbo not sure yet.

 

[Black_Bullet]

IF you want it let me know. Its 100% complete.

My setup is stock bottom end w/ARPs, HKS 264/272, stock IM, stock intake tube. FMIC w/2.5" pipes, 235/45/17 all season tires. 3" turboback, E85, 950s,dsmlink. Car is pretty close to stock weigh need to weigh it again though cause I am continuously putting more into it. DXD/SBC clutch. Welded center diff.

I basically want nitrous so that i can play with the big boys but i don't want to destroy a built tranny.

I plan on switching cams next year maybe going to a bigger turbo not sure yet.

Ill let you know as far as the n20 kit. It sucks to have a motor able to handle a lot of power and a drivetrain that can put some serious traction down, but be limited because of a POS tranny that will break when things start to get interesting. I mean I dont hear too many problems ever about the rear end or Tcases for the average persons goals, but I sure do wish our gear sets and spyder gears were MUCH stronger than they are.

I want to keep the setup fairly cheap and simple, these dsm drivetrains arent so tough, especially from what Ive heard that people have done to their 3-4th gears... Its just too weak of a drivetrain and too expensive for me to be confident with some massive turbo setup, built motor, revving out 9k and 30 plus psi doing low 10s, high 9s consistently, regardless of how fun that would be. My life goals, and income doesnt flow in the direction of making this a long time hobby and always racing, building, and breaking my dsm. Therefore why I will remain limit the power I make and will always be scared to push my setup.

And I agree with why your using nitrous. I like my e316g reliability and the way it pulls for a street car, and since I have not started using e85 yet I know I still have a lot left in this turbo. I am positive I can make fun numbers on the ethanol, but even with this setup on the corn juice id be scared off breaking drivetrain parts, even when the cars not a daily anymore, I still dont want to have to constantly fix this shit, I want it to just be a fun car to drive to the track and weekends so Im trying to mix being realistic as possible with my goals while still being able to go fast and have some fun.

Hell, you saying you sheared 3rd and broke your center diff on your 16g is proof enough that I need to be careful.
Did you strip 3rd after welding the center diff?

If I spray, the nitrous will just be there as a just in case I want to run some really fast times, or play with the big boys with bigger turbos. I am convinced now thru recent thinking that I wouldnt 75shot. Should give me close to 100awhp just from a 75shot anyways, and the plan is 400awhp on the e316g all boost so with the spray thats close enough to 500awhp anyways, with massive torque numbers to boot...

If you dropped some weight your drive train would probably like you more since you say your near stock weight.

EDIT: No more nitrous goals for me, too crazy on the drivetrain paired with 16g torque, just going to go bigger laggier turbo, emphasize on top end and call it a day.

 

[turbotalon1g]

^Yeah your probably right, but I want a street car not a race car. I don't know, but thanks for giving me something to think about.