New AGP 50 Trim & FMIC First Log!

[b11dragone]

Ok guys I just wanted your input on this log. I know the car needs to be leaned out in the 4000-7000 RPM's just a tad. But look at the timing, I still don't know how to read timing could you guys just tell me what you think. Oh yeah this is at 21psi. Mods:AGP 50trim, SFP Exhaust Manifold, Tial 38mm Wastegate, AGP FMIC, Thermal 3" Exhaust, Apexi N1 Down Pipe, Type S BOV, Cobalt Boost, Air-Fuel, and EGT Gauges, K&N FPIK, Apexi AVC-R boost controller, Apexi AFC 2, Aeromotive FPR, Magnecore 8.5 spark plug wires,Walbro 255 lph (high pressure), FIC 650cc Injectors,DataLogger.
RPM Timing o2
3224 22 0.92
3324 22 0.92
3408 20 0.92
3516 20 0.92
3604 19 0.92
3712 16 0.92
3844 15 0.94
3968 13 0.94
4096 13 0.96
4224 11 0.96
4368 11 0.96
4532 11 0.96
4660 11 0.96
4800 11 0.96
4972 13 0.96
5112 13 0.96
5272 11 0.96
5436 12 0.96
5588 13 0.96
5880 15 0.96
6036 15 0.96
6180 14 0.96
6336 14 0.96
6572 15 0.96
6832 15 0.96

 

[44pirate]

Do you have a AFPR?
What are your HI and LO settings on your SAFC?

 

[b11dragone]

Yes, I do have a fuel pressure regulator. Its in my mods list. My low is 30% my high is 80%.

 

[Ronin17]

Hi settings as in, 1k to 7k settings on the S-AFC

Some people like to tune their car at 19psi, get the timing looking good, and then raise boost up to desired point (21 for you) and look at timing to make sure you are not knocking.

At 21psi, I don't know how much leaner you are going to want to go with timing looking like that. I don't know if I would say timing was dropping from being too rich or anything. Good luck.

 

[44pirate]

Yes, I do have a fuel pressure regulator. Its in my mods list. My low is 30% my high is 80%.

Sorry I missed it.
What about your 1000-7000rpm settings. Especially your hi settings.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Try richening it up a bit in the area's where yout timing is going down.

 

[b11dragone]

Were should I am for timing. Like 15?

 

[b11dragone]

My high settings are:
RPM SAFC setting
1000 -19%
1600 -24%
2400 -24%
3000 -24%
3600 -26%
4200 -30%
4800 -36%
5400 -38%
6000 -38%
6400 -38%
6800 -38%
7200 -34%

 

[b11dragone]

I tuned it as low as 12psi. Then at 15psi. Then at 18psi. And finally at 20-21psi. The thing is the timing looked the same even at 12psi-18psi.

 

[44pirate]

With the airflow you get from a 50trim, your gonna be in a low timing map, so 16 degrees is all the ECU will give you. I think your running too rich. Rich knock. What are your EGT's.
My .02.

 

[b11dragone]

My egt still isn't hooked up unfortunately. But it just seems weird that I am rich but not that rich. I really shouldn't be getting knock. I am just confused??? And it doesn't matter what psi, I still get similar timing. Oh yeah one more question I have heard from some people that the safc II doesn't read knock, but mine does, I just don't think it is accurate because it even shows knock at idle sometimes.

 

[Ronin17]

My egt still isn't hooked up unfortunately. But it just seems weird that I am rich but not that rich. I really shouldn't be getting knock. I am just confused??? And it doesn't matter what psi, I still get similar timing. Oh yeah one more question I have heard from some people that the safc II doesn't read knock, but mine does, I just don't think it is accurate because it even shows knock at idle sometimes.

S-AFCII can't read knock on a DSM, anything that gets displayed is just crash, don't even bother trying to use it.

Those Hi settings seem really freaking lean to me for 650's and a 50-trim. I have the same injectors and -38% seems way to lean for the amount of air a 50-trim is going to put out. I would turn boost to 18psi and change Hi settings to -24% all the way across and start tuning again. I can't see "rich knock" being the reason for your timing getting pulled. Good luck and invest in a Wideband kit, you'll be glad you did.

 

[B00STED4banger]

i have 650's and my logs look similar except i'm running 21psi and get 19 degrees of timing at 6-7k rpms, and i have a walbro 190lph not rewired. I'm also still running rich as my egt's are at 1400F still, so i'm gonna say you are still a little rich

 

[b11dragone]

Thats what is strange. My o2's say I am still alittle rich, yet my timing is suggesting that I am lean. Could the fact the I have an external wastegate with an external dump effect my o2's, I mean that extra exhaust is no longer being read by the o2 sensor, could that have something to do with it?

 

[b11dragone]

So why would Apexi put the SAFC so that it tapped into the knock wire, what is the point of having the signal if it doesn't mean anything?

 

[CanadianTSi]

So why would Apexi put the SAFC so that it tapped into the knock wire, what is the point of having the signal if it doesn't mean anything?

It works on some cars, just not 2g's. It has to do with the style of signal that the knock sensor sends to the ECU...

 

[CanadianTSi]

Also Narrowband O2's aren't the most accurate tuning tool in the world. Yout timing is being pulled for a reason, probably because you are knocking.

 

[Ronin17]

Thats what is strange. My o2's say I am still alittle rich, yet my timing is suggesting that I am lean. Could the fact the I have an external wastegate with an external dump effect my o2's, I mean that extra exhaust is no longer being read by the o2 sensor, could that have something to do with it?

You really can't use o2's to tell if you are rich or not. They give you a general idea, but are nowhere near accurate enough to safely tune your car too. You might have .96 o2's, but you are running at 13.0:1 A/F. I would personally richen up the Hi settings and tune at 18psi, then turn it back up to 20-21psi and make sure timing is ok. It's really not going to hurt anything to richen it up, but leaning it out even more could prove to be an expensive mistake, just something to think about. Was your timing dropping when you were at -28% or -30%?

So why would Apexi put the SAFC so that it tapped into the knock wire, what is the point of having the signal if it doesn't mean anything?

Apexi made the S-AFCII for a wide range of cars, the only way to read knock in a 2g is DSMLink or a stand alone EMS.

 

[b11dragone]

RPM SAFC RPM o2 Timing
1000 -19% 3400 0.92 20
1600 -24% 3504 0.94 17
2400 -21% 3612 0.94 18
3000 -19% 3744 0.96 15
3600 -21% 3856 0.96 13
4200 -22% 4004 0.98 11
4800 -31% 4140 0.98 10
5400 -33% 4268 0.98 11
6000 -33% 4428 0.98 10
6400 -35% 4568 0.98 11
6800 -36% 4708 0.98 10
7200 -35% 4884 0.98 11
5044 0.96 12
5224 0.96 14
5368 0.96 15
5532 0.96 16
5688 0.96 18
5852 0.96 18
5980 0.96 19
6144 0.96 20
6272 0.98 20
6420 0.96 21
6540 0.96 22
6796 0.96 22
6928 0.96 23
7136 0.96 22
Here is another log done at 16psi. I lowered the psi and added more fuel, yet I am still getting shitty timing? So what now?

 

[b11dragone]

Sorry. My setting ran into my log? Just follow it to the left to see the last couple hundred rpms.

 

[b11dragone]

RPM SAFC RPM o2 Timing
1000 -19% 3400 0.92 20
1600 -24% 3504 0.94 17
2400 -21% 3612 0.94 18
3000 -19% 3744 0.96 15
3600 -21% 3856 0.96 13
4200 -22% 4004 0.98 11
4800 -31% 4140 0.98 10
5400 -33% 4268 0.98 11
6000 -33% 4428 0.98 10
6400 -35% 4568 0.98 11
6800 -36% 4708 0.98 10
7200 -35% 4884 0.98 11
x x 5044 0.96 12
x x 5224 0.96 14
x x 5368 0.96 15
x x 5532 0.96 16
x x 5688 0.96 18
x x 5852 0.96 18
x x 5980 0.96 19
x x 6144 0.96 20
x x 6272 0.98 20
x x 6420 0.96 21
x x 6540 0.96 22
x x 6796 0.96 22
x x 6928 0.96 23
x x 7136 0.96 22

 

[Ronin17]

What's your base fuel pressure with the vacuum hose off? Timing is looking a lot better from 5k to redline. Still looks like it could use some work from 4k - 4.5k, maybe even a little leaner. How does the car feel at this setting?

I have the same injectors and I am starting to realize that I am having to take way too much fuel out to get my A/F to 11.4:1. Right now I am at -35% from 4.5k to 7K and my A/F is 11.1:1, I have actually lowered my base fuel pressure to 41 psi to try and take a little fuel out, but it still needs to go a little bit leaner.

Situations like this make me really hate using the airflow signal to control fuel, I actually hate it so much I already sent away a 95 ECU to DSMLink. Taking this much airflow signal out makes it difficult to run safe timing on the street, Even you are getting to the point where you could lean it out more and have 25 - 27 degrees timing at redline, which I don't think is good. You could try to remove some fuel with your AFPR and hopefully not have to go so lean on the S-AFC.

Good luck man. I'll try and think of some more suggestions, but I am also learning the ropes of tuning.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Your timing in those last 2 logs looks really good. Thats about as much timing as you can expect to get.

 

[b11dragone]

My base fuel pressure is 43 with the hose off. I don't know...it seems that the timing is better but not much better than the previous log, and the o2's are way up that is what confuses me. I mean timing is still in the 10-11 degree category for some time. And that is not that much better than the previous log.

 

[Ronin17]

My base fuel pressure is 43 with the hose off. I don't know...it seems that the timing is better but not much better than the previous log, and the o2's are way up that is what confuses me. I mean timing is still in the 10-11 degree category for some time. And that is not that much better than the previous log.

23* at redline compared to 15* is pretty good to me. I am not surprised that your o2's have changed, bottom line is that you can't trust or use o2's for tuning, they are just not reliable enough.

Like I said, it looks like you could go a little leaner at 4K - 4.5K to help clear up the 10-11 timing.

If you think you are running too much timing and still need to lean out the car, dropping the fuel pressure could help.

Lean out 4k - 4.5k and post a log of it.