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Need help, timing jumped, bent valves??

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
First and foremost let me thank you guys for dropping in and trying to help in anyway!

I'm used to working on 4g63's but recently my sisters 95 Esi just shut off while she was driving and I've narrowed it down to something to do with the timing.

First I checked for spark which wasn't present, then after checking resistance on the coil and wires I was about to check the cam and crank sensors when I pulled the timing cover and noticed the belt was ridiculiously loose... So I'm guessing the no spark was caused by the timing jumping a few teeth, or the tensioner just giving out? I'm not sure when the t-belt was replaced last or if it even was and its sitting at 160k miles.. my main concern is did it bend any valves and if it did how exactly would i know? I've already started getting it ready to replace the timing belt and water pump I just wanted to know if there was anyway I could rule out bent valves without pulling the head before replacing everything? Also I figured I would do the water pump while I'm at it, any other ideas or anything you have to add would be great.

Any help is much appreciated! I need to get this car back on the road as soon as possible so please if you have any ideas lmk!:ohdamn:
 

phunny

Proven Member
3,155
21
Feb 1, 2005
Pittsboro, Indiana
For the HD replacement you're going to take the head to the machine shop I'm hoping and while it's there just have them take a good look, if they're bent it's not hard to tell.

As for the tune up here ya go :thumb:

Every 60000 or 48 months
1) Replace fuel filter
2) Timing belt change: A complete list of 60k timing belt service would include all these:
- Timing belt
- Balance shaft belt
- Timing Tensioner
- Water pump
- Timing belt tensioner pulley
- Balance shaft tensioner pulley
- Idler pulley
- Crank seal
- Oil pump seal
- Balance shaft seal
- 2 Cam seals
- Harmonic balancer
- All other belts
Get only MITSUBISHI parts for the list above. OEM part does not always mean that the part is made by MITSUBISHI. If you don't know where to but parts from, this is a good start - Where Can I Buy OEM Parts Besides Junkyards and Ebay? - DSM Forums.

If your car is old, go ahead and replace all the vacuum hoses. RRE makes a good kit here - RRE's Larson Silicone Hose Kit
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
Thanks for the list, I do know all the components that need to be replaced for the timing belt job I just wasn't specific with everything I would replace. Mostly everything you listed needs to be replaced because like most females, that I know anyway dont fix things until there broke LOL...

As far as the head/valves, I'm pretty sure there not bent but my question was, "is there a way I can tell if there bent without pulling the head." If the valves are bent then I will definitely have a machine shop look over it before replacing them but I was hoping the head didn't have to come off.

Edit. I should add that when I lined the timing marks up for TDC nothing binded and it spun fine.
 

dsm8883

Proven Member
239
1
Dec 19, 2004
gainsville, Florida
Do a leak down test and that will tell u everything. If u already have the belt off just turn the cams until the valves are closed.
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
Do a leak down test and that will tell u everything. If u already have the belt off just turn the cams until the valves are closed.

Thanks, the belt is still on too. What all do I need for a leakdown test? I've done boost leak tests and compression but never a leakdown test. Thanks for the quick help guys!
 

smrogers5771

Proven Member
97
3
Jul 22, 2010
NorthernCambria, Pennsylvania
tell ya an easier way... haha i got a lot of experience in this as well. Pull off the valve cover, and look at the springs... If they are loose and when u touch them if they fall out of place with the cams still bolted down then yeah you definitely have bent valves..... I done this before plenty of times whenever I hear of a timing belt jumping time that bad thats the first thing I do. It dont take much I think 4 10mm bolts on the coil, 8mm bolts on the valve cover... Easy check. Example if you take the valve cover off and push on all the springs and some or all of the springs fall out of place yeah valves are bent. I hope this helps ya bud.

Thanks,

Sean Rogers

Crap I meant the rocker arms not the springs im sorry man I definitely meant to say rocker arms I duno why I said springs!!
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
tell ya an easier way... haha i got a lot of experience in this as well. Pull off the valve cover, and look at the springs... If they are loose and when u touch them if they fall out of place with the cams still bolted down then yeah you definitely have bent valves..... I done this before plenty of times whenever I hear of a timing belt jumping time that bad thats the first thing I do. It dont take much I think 4 10mm bolts on the coil, 8mm bolts on the valve cover... Easy check. Example if you take the valve cover off and push on all the springs and some or all of the springs fall out of place yeah valves are bent. I hope this helps ya bud.

Thanks,

Sean Rogers

Thanks Sean, your help is much appreciated! Sounds simple enough, fingers crossed on this one!
 

smrogers5771

Proven Member
97
3
Jul 22, 2010
NorthernCambria, Pennsylvania
Do a leak down test and that will tell u everything. If u already have the belt off just turn the cams until the valves are closed.

ahh I would not turn the cams if you have the belt off unless the motor was in top dead center. What you should have done was with the timing belt still on should have turned the motor over by hand, until top dead center was located on the crank. If you found TDC and seen the cam marks didnt line up you would know it jumped time and well the motor would be hard as heck to turn over by hand with bent valves. Just turning the cams to line up the marks to make sure the valves are closed would not work anyways because some valves would still be open. The 420a's are a lil different. Cylinders 1 and 4 @ TDC, the pistons would be completely up and cylinders 2&3 pistons would be at the bottom. So if you are trying to turn the cams with the timing belt off it could possibly bend the valves if they are not already. I would recommend if you are going that route to loosen the cam caps up (and please dont mix up the order that they come off very bad they are machined in a certain way that when they are pulled off they have to go on the same exact way or else you will continue to throw timing belts) once the cam caps are loose you are ensured that all the valves are closed and you can move the bottom (crank pulley to TDC) line the timing marks up with the cams and then do your leak down.

I hope this helped also...

Thanks,

Sean Rogers

Thanks Sean, your help is much appreciated! Sounds simple enough, fingers crossed on this one!

well hope all goes well for ya!!! hey man if they are bent tear off the head and build her up!! haha thats what I always did!! Always good times being a back yard mechanic haha
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
The belts still on and I lined the cam marks up with no problem. I still have to pull the timing cover completely off to make sure everythings lined up but I do know the cams are lined up and it easy to turn so maybe thats a good sighn.
 

smrogers5771

Proven Member
97
3
Jul 22, 2010
NorthernCambria, Pennsylvania
yes. If you can crank the engine over by hand feeling a little bit of pressure on the compression stroke I would imagine or at least it sounds ok maybe just a tooth off at the bottom? pull the cover off see put it in TDC at the bottom and then see if the timing marks up top on the cams are lined up and if need be spin the engine to line up the timing marks on the cams to line up and check the bottom. If all are lined up (I have seen this happen as well) and still no start... one of your cams maybe 180 degrees out of time. My buddy did this on a 420a avenger before installed a timing belt and lined up the wrong timing mark on the intake side so needless to say it was 180 degrees out of time and magically didnt bend any valves... but keep me updated
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
I definitely will, thanks again bro! Keep an eye on this thread if you would, I'll be working on it again tomorrow. Thanks for your help!
 

smrogers5771

Proven Member
97
3
Jul 22, 2010
NorthernCambria, Pennsylvania
No problem man. Let me know whats up tomorrow and I will jump on. If need to you can give me a call and I will try to walk ya through it or help diagnose whats going on. I have a lot of experience with the 420a's.

Oh yeah one more thing... If by chance the crank sensor came unplugged, or took a crap u would get absolutely no spark and ## fuel pump wont turn on. As for the Cam angle sensor My experience was driving down the road and the car would just shut off on me... and I had to wait at least 5 minutes before it would run again. There is a magnet within the Cam angle sensor and if it got demagnetized or screwed up it will make the car not throw spark.
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
No problem man. Let me know whats up tomorrow and I will jump on. If need to you can give me a call and I will try to walk ya through it or help diagnose whats going on. I have a lot of experience with the 420a's.

I appreciate that! I'll Pm you tomorrow and if I need to call I'll let you know.:thumb: I guess the first step will be to make sure everything is lined up and then I can pull off the valve cover and check the springs. It probably wont be until later in the afternoon.

Oh yeah one more thing... If by chance the crank sensor came unplugged, or took a crap u would get absolutely no spark and ## fuel pump wont turn on. As for the Cam angle sensor My experience was driving down the road and the car would just shut off on me... and I had to wait at least 5 minutes before it would run again. There is a magnet within the Cam angle sensor and if it got demagnetized or screwed up it will make the car not throw spark.

I'm almost positive its good on fuel, I heard the fuel pump kick on and smelled gas when I cranked it. I'll double check anyway though! Not saying it still couldn't be something with the crank sensor.
The wierd thing is my crank angle sensor on my tsi went out and it was getting fuel but no spark so maybe it could still be a possiblity.

I've read that about the cam sensor too, this wouldn't start nomatter how long it sat so I'm not sure if that rules it out but things are definitely leading to timing. I guess I'll know more tomorrow. I'll just try to eliminate things as I go but this timing belt looked old and trashed so I'm leaning towards that being the culprit. It also lost pretty much all the tension so maybe I got lucky and the tensioner went out and it skipped a couple teeth and lost spark without bending valves like you said. Anyway I'm ready to figure this out so thanks again for all the help and I'll let you know as soon as I find a few more things out!
 

psycho

Proven Member
296
5
Feb 4, 2005
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
I'm flattered. But why is my car your avatar?
 

bullettdsm

N/T DSM Wiseman
DSM Wiseman
2,609
34
Dec 17, 2004
East Hampton, Connecticut
So much late night misinformation on this :ohdamn:.

Ok, first off, you do NOT have balance shafts. Or, for that matter, a harmonic balancer (which you would have no reason to replace as a "maintenance item"). Though it is often called a harmonic balancer, it does not work the same as the 4g63 harmonic balancer. We have basically a pulley with a rubber "absorbtion" ring. But, at any rate, more importantly, there is no real reason to replace this.

Second off, IF your engine jumped time, do NOT just turn it over to check marks. Though it might be a moot point at this time, there's no reason to spin into the valves. There are three points to look at for timing; two on the cam gears and one on the crank. You can't just check the cam gears by lining them up because the crank may be off. So as you turn the cam gears (if they are still attached to the crank by the belt), you may be turning the pistons into the valves depending on where she stopped after she skipped time (from your description of "ridiculously loose" we'll presume at this time that you did skip time). Here is a link for seeing where they line up; 2GNT.com - PROPER_TIMING_MARK_ALIGNMENT

Now there is a pretty good chance that the valves are bent. BUT with a "pretty good chance", comes a possibility that they aren't bent :p Since you already presumed that the belt skipped, you will have to pull the belt to check things. To get down to the belt marks, you can follow this (as well as replacement); 2GNT.com - Timing_Belt_Replacement

Regardless of IF the timing jumped or not, at 160k, you WILL be doing the timing belt at this time. The service limit on belts is every 60k, so you need to do the belt anyway.

Crap, I gotta get to work; in a nutshell, you can roll the dice and just properly put a new belt and timing parts on there, and see if she runs OK (dending on your value of your labor, LOL), or you can check to see if you got compression in the each cylinder by doing a leak down test with the cams in their appropriate position.

Hopefully, Locke, or Paul, or Shake Zulla or another wiseman (somebody who knows what they are talking about) will chime in and fill in the blanks.....

Sorry I gotta go to work,

MB
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
I'm flattered. But why is my car your avatar?

:hmm: Not sure who your reffering to but I don't see any avengers for avatars except yours. Your welcome for the random post in my thread though.



So much late night misinformation on this :ohdamn:.

Ok, first off, you do NOT have balance shafts. Or, for that matter, a harmonic balancer (which you would have no reason to replace as a "maintenance item"). Though it is often called a harmonic balancer, it does not work the same as the 4g63 harmonic balancer. We have basically a pulley with a rubber "absorbtion" ring. But, at any rate, more importantly, there is no real reason to replace this.

Second off, IF your engine jumped time, do NOT just turn it over to check marks. Though it might be a moot point at this time, there's no reason to spin into the valves. There are three points to look at for timing; two on the cam gears and one on the crank. You can't just check the cam gears by lining them up because the crank may be off. So as you turn the cam gears (if they are still attached to the crank by the belt), you may be turning the pistons into the valves depending on where she stopped after she skipped time (from your description of "ridiculously loose" we'll presume at this time that you did skip time). Here is a link for seeing where they line up; 2GNT.com - PROPER_TIMING_MARK_ALIGNMENT

Now there is a pretty good chance that the valves are bent. BUT with a "pretty good chance", comes a possibility that they aren't bent :p Since you already presumed that the belt skipped, you will have to pull the belt to check things. To get down to the belt marks, you can follow this (as well as replacement); 2GNT.com - Timing_Belt_Replacement

Regardless of IF the timing jumped or not, at 160k, you WILL be doing the timing belt at this time. The service limit on belts is every 60k, so you need to do the belt anyway.

Crap, I gotta get to work; in a nutshell, you can roll the dice and just properly put a new belt and timing parts on there, and see if she runs OK (dending on your value of your labor, LOL), or you can check to see if you got compression in the each cylinder by doing a leak down test with the cams in their appropriate position.

Hopefully, Locke, or Paul, or Shake Zulla or another wiseman (somebody who knows what they are talking about) will chime in and fill in the blanks.....

Sorry I gotta go to work,

MB

Thanks for clearing some of that up MB and thanks for the links. I think the first post just misuderstood not only what I was asking but that this is for a 420a and not a 4g63.

I'm a little confused on what you mean by not turning the motor over to lineup the marks though, how else would I have checked the timing? I understand that if its out of time theres a chance of bending the valves but if thats the case, there probably already bent from trying to crank the car after it shut off multiple times...

Either way the marks on the cam gears are lined up so once I can get this cover off "which is a complete PITA" I will know if the timing is actuaully off. Then I guess I'll go from there, I obviously made this post because I want to find out if the valves are bent before I put everything back together because I'm not the type of person to do stuff half assed..

I'll post back as soon as I find out more, thanks again for the HELPFUL posts everyone!

Edit, this pic helped but confused me at the same time LOL... So in that specific pic of the cam gears is the cam with 2 marks 180 off or is it lined up? I know on the 4g63's both the dowel pins point in the 12 oclock position but that picture is just confusing and they don't specify how you can tell if its the right mark unless you pull the valve cover off??
http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=PROPER_TIMING_MARK_ALIGNMENT
 

bullettdsm

N/T DSM Wiseman
DSM Wiseman
2,609
34
Dec 17, 2004
East Hampton, Connecticut
I'm a little confused on what you mean by not turning the motor over to lineup the marks though, how else would I have checked the timing?
Yeah, this I wanted to expand on, but I had to run to work :notgood:. Basically, you want to set your pistons between bottom dead center and top dead center (that way there is no way for them to hit the valves). So you would do this with the timing belt off. You want the crank gear arrow/mark to be at 3 O'clock or 9 O'clock (if the mark is at 12 O'clock or 6 O'clock two pistons would be at top dead center). So you would turn your crank the shortest distance possible to get to 3 or 9 O'clock. If say your mark was at 10-11 O'clock you could turn it counter clockwise to get to 9 O'clock(yes this is one condition where you could go counterclockwise with the engine rotation). if say 1-2 Oclock' you would go clockwise to 3 O'clock. Basically trying to get the pistons at half travel in each cylinder so the valves wouldn't touch. Then you could spin the cams freely without worrying about the valves hitting the piston.

All the above is kinda a moot point (again) because;
I understand that if its out of time theres a chance of bending the valves but if thats the case, there probably already bent from trying to crank the car after it shut off multiple times...

But keep in mind that if the belt is still attached to the crank, she could have slipped to a spot that was ok, for the valves, but if you re-adjust the cams incorrectly, they have a chance of hitting the valves again. but as we've already said, moot point to where you are now

Either way the marks on the cam gears are lined up
Keep in mind that even if the cam gears line up, the crank gear also has to be lined up with the gears. So you won't want to turn anything anymore ;)


so once I can get this cover off "which is a complete PITA" I will know if the timing is actuaully off.
don't worry there are more annoying things besides the cover, LOL. You'll want to see this;2GNT.com - Removal_of_Passenger_Side_Motor_Mount_Plate_Only and be sure you use the correct Chrysler tool for removing the pulley (step 9 in the link I posted earlier). Then you will be at the timing mark (it is annoying but it actually sounds a lot harder and in depth than it really is. Patience is definitely your friend on this one).





Then I guess I'll go from there, I obviously made this post because I want to find out if the valves are bent before I put everything back together because I'm not the type of person to do stuff half assed..
As far as this goes, what someone else alluded to was setting up your cams so that you could do a leak down test. This would basically entail you setting each chamber up with the cams in the positon of valves closed for each cylinder. But the easier way would be to just pull both cams and then all your valves would be closed. You could then test each cylinder to see if they are holding compression (if your valves are bent, the cylinders would not hold compression). If you were so against pulling the cams, you could also just pop the rockers off and then your valves would be closed (that's a bit more of a chore in using a screw driver to pop out the rockers). Either way you do it, you have to do the timing belt anyway, LOL.

Edit, this pic helped but confused me at the same time LOL... So in that specific pic of the cam gears is the cam with 2 marks 180 off or is it lined up? I know on the 4g63's both the dowel pins point in the 12 oclock position but that picture is just confusing and they don't specify how you can tell if its the right mark unless you pull the valve cover off?
That picture is where your gears would be when you're at number 1 TDC. Yes, it is different from 4g63. On the 420a you have one dowel up (the exhaust cam) and one dowel down (the intake cam). The holes in the cam they are showing you, are obviously only for when you have the valve cover off.

I apoligize for not being able to get this info out on the first post. But, for some reason, when I tell my boss I was late because I was typing a response on a thread on tuners, he get's upset. Go figger :rolleyes::p

MB
 

psycho

Proven Member
296
5
Feb 4, 2005
Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
:hmm: Not sure who your reffering to but I don't see any avengers for avatars except yours. Your welcome for the random post in my thread though.

Hah, you're right. This is how it shows up on my tapatalk.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.


Anyway, sorry about that. And what Mark said.
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
Thanks a lot for clearing that stuff up for me MB! Makes a little more sense, its crazy how much different the 2 motors are but I guess thats to be expected :)

I wouldn't want to cause any problems for you at work and I really do appreciate the time your taking to get me some solid info and links to follow! I'm gonna get into it tomorrow, today was a long day for me and I didn't have much time to tinker with it. Plus as you said its going to take some patients so I think its good I waited! I'll be posting more up tomorrow when I can actually see whats going on!

BTW that was a great link you put up for that passenger side plate!!! Thats what I was working on yesterday and man was it frustrating LOL. After I get that off which I'm pretty much there I'll be happy LOL.

Thanks for the tips and info, I'm ready to see whats going on with this beast! I'll keep you guys posted and hopefully soon we will have this issue resolved!!!


Oh and phyco, thats crazy it came up like that on your phone LOL, no worries I though you where just post whoring LOL...
 

Shake_Zulla

Proven Member
523
13
Dec 30, 2010
Boise, Idaho
First I checked for spark which wasn't present, then after checking resistance on the coil and wires I was about to check the cam and crank sensors when I pulled the timing cover and noticed the belt was ridiculiously loose... So I'm guessing the no spark was caused by the timing jumping a few teeth, or the tensioner just giving out?

You might need to address your spark issue sooner or later. If the t-belt was still on wouldn't you still have spark? It just wouldn't happen at the correct time. I don't know how you checked spark but you might want to think about why you aren't getting it.

Thanks for the list, I do know all the components that need to be replaced for the timing belt job I just wasn't specific with everything I would replace. Mostly everything you listed needs to be replaced because like most females, that I know anyway dont fix things until there broke LOL...

:shhh: Don't tell 95talongirl :D

Hopefully, Locke, or Paul, or Shake Zulla or another wiseman (somebody who knows what they are talking about) will chime in and fill in the blanks.....

Sorry I gotta go to work,

MB

Thanks for the shout out Mark! However, 60% of the time I don't know what I am talking about and 30% of the time I am BSing my way through my post so that only leaves 10%of the time for accurate statements :D

To the OP: Ok so what I would do if I didn't hate my sister is just take the head off and look. 160,000 miles is asking for a new head gasket anyways. Getting the t-belt off is the HARDEST part to take off when removing the head. What do you have left? The intake and the exhaust header are a cake walk and it would give you piece of mind checking the valves and pistons for damage. At most it will add 100 bucks to your project for head gasket and maybe new head bolts. But hey I don't like my sister that much :thumb:

Thanks again Mark, I still feel like there is so much more I need to learn, I don't feel like an expert at all.
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
Thanks for the extra info shake, that's a good point about the headgasket however 100 dollars extra is a big deal right now. I will definitely do my best to make sure it's right and if the head does come off, I'll try to find a way to add a hg to the list.

As far as the spark, it could be another issue but the timing being off could cause no spark aswell. I'm not positive that's what it is but it seems like a good possibility and needs to be addressed first.
 

bullettdsm

N/T DSM Wiseman
DSM Wiseman
2,609
34
Dec 17, 2004
East Hampton, Connecticut
You might need to address your spark issue sooner or later. If the t-belt was still on wouldn't you still have spark? It just wouldn't happen at the correct time. I don't know how you checked spark but you might want to think about why you aren't getting it.
Could easily be because of the belt. If the cam sensor doesn't sync up properly with the crank sensor, you will not get spark. If the belt jumped, the ECU goes WTF and doesn't spark properly (which doesn't mean that there isn't another problem. Just that it could be the culprit).


Thanks again Mark, I still feel like there is so much more I need to learn, I don't feel like an expert at all.
Whoa, slow down there kimosabee :p

The reason I mentioned your name was because you have the ability to censor yourself. You seem to know the limitations of your knowledge base, so that you don't go off into space trying to explain something you don't know anything about. Therefore, with your knowledge base of the way a car functions etc., you would have been able to explain about leakdown testing concepts etc.

Basically, being able to trust your word :thumb:

MB
 

Shake_Zulla

Proven Member
523
13
Dec 30, 2010
Boise, Idaho
Could easily be because of the belt. If the cam sensor doesn't sync up properly with the crank sensor, you will not get spark. If the belt jumped, the ECU goes WTF and doesn't spark properly (which doesn't mean that there isn't another problem. Just that it could be the culprit).



Whoa, slow down there kimosabee :p

MB

Did not realize that... good to know thanks Mark and turbolover.

+1 for use of the word Kimosabe
 

turbolover10

15+ Year Contributor
497
18
Jun 20, 2005
Orlando, Florida
Thanks again guys for all the help, don't forget about me :)... I'm still waiting to get an afternoon to get this pulled off, It will be sometime this week for sure. I'm hoping tomorrow so keep an eye out cause I have a feeling I'm going to have a few questions.
 

Slo2gen

Proven Member
769
32
Apr 26, 2005
Upstate, South_Carolina
There are a couple of ways to do the leak down test, they make a leak down test kit, comes with a gauge and regulator and all, just make sure both the intake and exhaust valves are shut, screw the fitting in and hook an air line to it. The cheaper way is to use a compression tester and take the schrader valve out of the end of it and pump air into the cylinder via a air hose and just listen for where the air is coming out. I'm like Mark, at this point if I were you I would just pull the cams and slap it full of air, like its already been stated, you should probably do a timing belt anywho. Alas the last tid bit of info is this is a 95, so it could have some electrical demons present in the harness/ecu. Its kind of rare that the car would just shut off but has happened. Once you figure out the leak down test or whatever you decide to do, report back so we can get your girlfriends ride back on the road! :thumbsup
 
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