more tuning issues...

[kwaliph]

I go out to tune my brand spankin new; EIII16G, Eprom ECU from Motoguy's Garage, DSMchips.com Stage3, and my pretty DEJONTOOL UIP w/o GMMAF (only things different from my profile). Before all this, I made sure to break in the turbo with a 500 mile trip to the beach and I set my safc to stock like settings. I begin tuning i.e. make a run, check logger, tune accordingly and repeat. I did this all up 'til I couldn't seem to shake the last 10-12 counts of knock! I would add 2% fuel and knock would shoot to 16-17 counts. I remove 2%, it would shoot to 16-17 counts of knock. Am I missing something here or is this the maximum ability of the safc? I am aware of 1Gs should only be tuned for no knock but this doesnt seem to be possible with my setup. I know I still need to check for boost leaks with the proper equipment (HomeDepot, baby ) but that just doesnt seem likely considering I have no other issues related to boost leaks. Any thoughts?
I will post logger data upon request (lazy).

I have one more question for inquiring minds, I have a so-called HKS mbc. It looks all neat and stuff but its been nothin but problems up my ally. On my 14b, it worked wonderfully (cranked it up to 18 psi before dreaded FC!!!). Now that i have my new 16g, I cant seem to boost more than 16 psi! Its maxed out all the way! So I unhooked my mbc and ran straight J-pipe line, 9 psi WTF !?!?!? I realize this problem may have nothing to do with my mbc but I have no other ideas on what it might be. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

For reference:
16 psi (maxed mbc)
43 base fuel pressure
560 evo8 injectors
Oh, and all the knock seems to start around 4k rpms (<4k is knock free)

 

[kwaliph]

Bump. Please, any input would be greatly appreciated so I can figure out and fix my current stituation.

 

[jepherz]

If you have knock, you will need to add fuel in those ranges to get rid of it. That's about all the AFC can do. Shouldn't be a boost leak, as that would make you run rich if anything in boost. Is there a reason you are running 43 lbs on your fuel?

Not sure what you're asking here, but the MBC should work to the same pressure that it did before. I think what you're saying is you hooked your wastegate directly up to the J pipe, and that should be around 7-9 lbs as there is no bleed off. Other than that, make sure you have your stuff hooked up right and get back.

 

[andymoraitis]

Part of your issue appears to be that you're adding fuel when your Keydiver chip is already set for factory default settings (9.5:1 A/F/ and 16 degrees of timing). If anything, the AFC is used to subtract fuel with a Keydiver since the injector compensation is already taken care of in the chip and additional correction to add fuel isn't necessary. You could be running below 9:1 and running into rich knock. Also, make sure you re-set the fuel pressure to 37-39 psi with the vacuum line off. I'd also like you to check your ignition timing and make sure that it's at 5 degrees BTDC.

We really need to see a log to understand what's happening with more clarity, but I would also take the time to perform a complete boost leak test and inspect the knock sensor for any ooze coming out of the back. If it hasn't ever been replaced, it needs to be.

Once we have the knock issues resolved, we can work on custom A/F and timing settings in the chip that will allow you to ditch the AFC completely.

Get back to us on the info above and we'll do what we can to help,

Andy

 

[kwaliph]

Thanks for the response.

Well when I went to go tune, I set my fp to 43 (that is where most injectors are rated at and flow the best @ 100% DC). I set the safc to base (0 across) and made a run and found massive amounts of knock so I started adding fuel. But the weird part is I got to a point where I add fuel and knock just starts to go up (the lowest amount of knock before this happened was 10 or 12 counts). I dont hink I can run without the safc and not have knock :s.

And for the mbc, its like i said before, it just stops spinning and is set at 16 psi. Before it never stopped spinning and easily set to 18 psi. (I know it is hooked up right, it came on the car when I bought it and was set to 19 psi!)
Oh, the j-pipe thing, the e316g is supposed to come with a slightly stiffer spring in the actuator so 8-9 psi should be too low seeing how thats the stock actuator setting.
I will get some logger data posted after I get off work today . Thanks again.

 

[jepherz]

You need to set your fuel pressure back to stock like Andy said. It doesn't matter what your injectors will be best running at, because if you change the base setting, than all of your fuel maps will be off. Setting the fuel pressure higher is, in turn, injecting more fuel and like Andy said, you could be running into rich knock.

 

[andymoraitis]

Let's not forget that you need to re-check your timing. Having that out by 4-5 degrees can cause a nasty mess with knock no matter how much excess fuel is being dumped.

Start with the little stuff like fuel pressure and timing and then we'll work forward from there until we track down the source of the problem.

Keep us posted,

Andy

 

[kwaliph]

OOOOOk. I finally got paid and made a boost leak tester!

I filled the the tract up to ~18-20psi. Sounds good up to 15 psi (small leak inside engine), then >16 psi a distincly louder hiss begins to surface from somewhere near the intake ports. I bust out the soapy water and let loose. The only thing i missed (forgot) was the intercooler. I got everything else. The only visible bubbles emerged from a connector harness going to what looks like the egr valve? Its directly underneath the throttle body.

I sprayed every visible angle of the head/intake-manifold gasket. Nothing.

I would say it took about 5-7 secs for the boost to leak to about 11 psi then it took maybe 10 secs to get to about 3-5 psi and stood there (leaked too slow to tell).

All this is me guessing approximately. I can video tape what it does if you think it will help.

So do I have a bad boost leak? Is the intake tract supposed to not lose any boost at all or is it supposed to leak slowly like it did? Don't hold back

Oh, can you guys direct to some instructions on how to get the logs off the palm? I have done it before but it doesnt seem to work anymore. I would synchronize and I was able to find the logs in the palm folder but it doesnt seem to work that way anymore sooo. Thanks again.

 

[kwaliph]

You need to set your fuel pressure back to stock like Andy said. It doesn't matter what your injectors will be best running at, because if you change the base setting, than all of your fuel maps will be off. Setting the fuel pressure higher is, in turn, injecting more fuel and like Andy said, you could be running into rich knock.

Yes, but why would I run into rich knock if I set the fp BEFORE I tuned the car ?? Wouldn't the tuning compensate for the higher fp by being at an overall lower % on the safc?

 

[jepherz]

Because, the eprom you have burned is made for your injectors. There's no good reason to change the base fuel pressure as all of the maps are based on 36 psi base. If you raise it, then you have to pull that much more fuel on your safc. Why change it if it's only creating more problems?

 

[kwaliph]

I already lowered it to 36 psi but for argument's sake, why would it be a bad thing by running lower correction all across? Wouldnt that give me more timing and thus giving me more power? I guess what I dont understand is, what ARE the negative affects of having 43 psi fp ? I know my fuel maps would be off like you say but what does that do to effect the engine negatively?.

 

[jepherz]

well, 43 psi is higher than stock, so with no fuel correction you would be running more fuel. This would be bad, because if you o2 sensor was working correctly, your fuel trims would be sub 100 and then on your non-corrected maps (WOT, warmup) you would be running rich.

Now, in your case, with an SAFC to correct for this problem, in order to get your trims to 100, you would have to pull fuel. This, in turn, fakes the ecu out into thinking less air is flowing than normal. Adversely, the ECU will run LESS timing and fuel, thus lowering your power if anything.

It's generally a good idea to keep as many things in check with stock if you don't have good control over them. If you were to change the maps in the eprom to alter your fuel pressure, then this wouldn't be a problem.

 

[eclpsgsx97]

This, in turn, fakes the ecu out into thinking less air is flowing than normal. Adversely, the ECU will run LESS timing and fuel, thus lowering your power if anything.

At WOT, less airflow "seen" by the ECU goes into a more aggressive timing map i.e. more timing advance.

Cars with large injectors (>550cc) and no compensation via a chip tend to experience too much timing due to the correction on piggyback devices. Too much timing advance leads to knock. Since you have a chip w/injector compesation, this should not be a problem for you.

Have you gotten a log since you lowered your FP to spec?

 

[fwdeclipse]

Have Andy give you some custom chip settings,he did it for me and its unbeleivable what it did for me.After you do that you will never look at an safc ever again.He changed my af to 11:5:1 and advanced timing to 19*.I would pm him and talk to him about it.

 

[jepherz]

At WOT, less airflow "seen" by the ECU goes into a more aggressive timing map i.e. more timing advance.

Unless you are in the upper range of your timing map, less airflow means less load, and therefore less timing. Timing tapers off towards the top and will then have the opposite affect, like you stated. Timing adjustment is in effect at all times when running on a map, not just in WOT and non-WOT.

 

[93turbo16]

Unless you are in the upper range of your timing map, less airflow means less load, and therefore less timing. Timing tapers off towards the top and will then have the opposite affect, like you stated. Timing adjustment is in effect at all times when running on a map, not just in WOT and non-WOT.

Huh? Timing is almost always advanced with less load. The maps with less load have more timing. So no matter where he pulls the fuel out with the afc it is going to advance the timing.

And really I don't see a reason why the timing tapers off on the top end. It doesn't make much pratical tuning sense to pull timing with increasing RPMs. That is just something I have noticed in the stock timing maps that I don't like.

 

[kwaliph]

Huh? Timing is almost always advanced with less load. The maps with less load have more timing. So no matter where he pulls the fuel out with the afc it is going to advance the timing.

And really I don't see a reason why the timing tapers off on the top end. It doesn't make much pratical tuning sense to pull timing with increasing RPMs. That is just something I have noticed in the stock timing maps that I don't like.

Thats how I thought it worked .

Here is my log with 43 psi fp and 15 psi. This is the best I could get. the ne points on 6k and 7k are maxed out at 50% correction .
Yea most of the information is gone because I had about 2kb of space for attachments .

 

[kwaliph]

OOOOOOOOK. I just completely fixed a rather odd problem. Well last night I went tuning after setting stock fp when it doesn't even let me rev past 6k Well turns out, my second (outer-most) pulley on the waterpump was put on backwards making the pulley out of alignment of the other 2 pulleys by atleast 1/4 inch. Well this was enough to pull the serpentine belt off by 2 teeth on the crank pulley. This induced belt slippage right around 4500 rpms and was slipping so bad by 6k that the fuel pump was not able to supply enough fp and the injectors began to lean out due to low voltage in the system . After flipping the pulley, I finished tuning and this is where I arrived.

Here is probably the best tune I've been able to muster up. I still am not able to get rid of this knock . What am I doing wrong?

Edit: O yea, dataloggers are for chumps . This tune was done with only my stock boost gauge conversion (now its a knock gauge). Is there a bad side to this tuning method??

TIMA O2-R TPS MAFS ERPM KNCK INJP ---

33.00 0.04 28.63 106.93 2218.75 0.00 4.61 10.00
29.00 0.53 45.49 150.96 2281.25 0.00 5.38 13.00
26.00 0.84 99.61 169.83 2312.50 0.00 5.89 14.00
25.00 0.76 100.00 182.41 2343.75 0.00 6.14 15.00
25.00 0.78 100.00 194.99 2375.00 0.00 6.40 16.00
24.00 0.72 100.00 201.28 2437.50 0.00 6.66 17.00
24.00 0.58 100.00 213.86 2500.00 0.00 6.91 18.00
22.00 0.64 100.00 226.44 2500.00 0.00 6.66 17.00
21.00 0.02 100.00 239.02 2562.50 0.00 6.91 18.00
20.00 0.02 100.00 257.89 2656.25 0.00 7.42 21.00
19.00 0.02 100.00 276.76 2687.50 0.00 7.94 22.00
17.00 0.02 100.00 301.92 2750.00 0.00 8.70 25.00
16.00 0.70 100.00 320.79 2812.50 0.00 9.73 29.00
14.00 0.80 100.00 352.24 2906.25 1.00 10.75 33.00
14.00 0.80 100.00 389.98 2968.75 1.00 11.78 37.00
15.00 0.80 100.00 421.43 3031.25 0.00 12.29 39.00
14.00 0.76 100.00 465.46 3125.00 0.00 13.31 44.00
14.00 0.74 100.00 503.20 3218.75 0.00 13.57 46.00
15.00 0.72 100.00 509.49 3312.50 0.00 13.31 47.00
15.00 0.72 100.00 534.65 3437.50 0.00 13.57 49.00
15.00 0.74 100.00 559.81 3437.50 0.00 13.82 50.00
16.00 0.76 100.00 572.39 3593.75 0.00 13.82 53.00
16.00 0.74 100.00 610.13 3656.25 1.00 13.82 54.00
16.00 0.74 100.00 610.13 3781.25 0.00 13.82 55.00
17.00 0.74 100.00 641.58 3875.00 0.00 14.08 58.00
16.00 0.76 100.00 673.03 4000.00 4.00 14.34 61.00
16.00 0.76 100.00 698.19 4125.00 3.00 15.10 66.00
17.00 0.78 100.00 742.22 4218.75 3.00 15.36 69.00
17.00 0.80 100.00 754.80 4312.50 3.00 15.87 73.00
17.00 0.80 100.00 811.41 4406.25 9.00 16.38 77.00
15.00 0.80 100.00 842.86 4500.00 9.00 17.15 82.00
15.00 0.80 100.00 874.31 4531.25 9.00 17.41 84.00
15.00 0.80 100.00 905.76 4687.50 8.00 18.18 91.00
15.00 0.80 100.00 962.37 4812.50 8.00 18.43 94.00
16.00 0.80 100.00 1006.40 4875.00 8.00 18.94 98.00
16.00 0.80 100.00 1050.43 5000.00 7.00 19.46 103.00
16.00 0.80 100.00 1088.17 5031.25 7.00 19.71 105.00
17.00 0.80 100.00 1138.49 5187.50 7.00 19.97 110.00
17.00 0.80 100.00 1144.78 5250.00 7.00 20.74 116.00
18.00 0.80 100.00 1176.23 5343.75 7.00 20.48 116.00
17.00 0.80 100.00 1220.26 5343.75 14.00 20.74 118.00
16.00 0.80 100.00 1220.26 5437.50 14.00 20.99 121.00
17.00 0.80 100.00 1258.00 5562.50 13.00 20.48 121.00
17.00 0.78 100.00 1245.42 5625.00 13.00 20.48 123.00
17.00 0.78 100.00 1276.87 5718.75 13.00 19.97 122.00
18.00 0.78 100.00 1276.87 5843.75 14.00 20.74 129.00
18.00 0.78 100.00 1289.45 5781.25 13.00 19.97 123.00
19.00 0.78 100.00 1302.03 5875.00 13.00 20.22 126.00
19.00 0.78 100.00 1264.29 5937.50 13.00 19.71 125.00
19.00 0.78 100.00 1352.35 6031.25 12.00 19.71 127.00
20.00 0.78 100.00 1327.19 6125.00 12.00 20.22 132.00
17.00 0.76 100.00 1358.64 6156.25 12.00 19.71 129.00
18.00 0.76 100.00 1377.51 6281.25 11.00 20.22 135.00
18.00 0.76 100.00 1440.41 6406.25 18.00 19.46 133.00
15.00 0.76 100.00 1390.09 6468.75 18.00 17.92 123.00
15.00 0.76 100.00 1402.67 6500.00 18.00 19.46 135.00
14.00 0.76 100.00 1339.77 6531.25 17.00 18.69 130.00
14.00 0.74 100.00 1188.81 6531.25 17.00 16.38 114.00
13.00 0.74 100.00 1364.93 6656.25 17.00 18.43 131.00
14.00 0.74 100.00 1270.58 6781.25 16.00 17.41 126.00
13.00 0.74 100.00 1289.45 6750.00 16.00 17.66 127.00
13.00 0.72 100.00 1151.07 6906.25 16.00 17.92 132.00
13.00 0.74 100.00 1276.87 6906.25 18.00 17.66 130.00
12.00 0.74 21.96 956.08 6781.25 18.00 4.10 29.00
36.00 0.66 9.41 106.93 6312.50 0.00 2.05 13.00
45.00 0.60 9.41 44.03 5875.00 0.00 1.28 8.00
45.00 0.64 9.41 31.45 5343.75 0.00 1.28 7.00
45.00 0.64 9.41 25.16 4875.00 0.00 1.28 6.00