LOTS of phantom knock

[Vans]

So after putting in some synthetic oil, i notice my car feels like its hesitating, plug in the logger and i see huge counts of knock. it hits 43 no problem i dont even have to boost. i can hit 43 just taking off from a stop, or giving it like 5% more throttle when cruising, and i notice my lifters are ticking like mad with the synthetic. however i cant get it to knock revving in neutral, ive tried up to a bout 3k.

so after finally deciding to drain out my 40$ oil change, 10w30 mobil one, it seems like the tick is better. im on 5w30 castrol gtx and the noise seems to come and go now, whereas on the syn it was always there. its only been a day since going back to the regular oil ive used, im thinking i may need 3rd gen lifters, but what else could it be? i want to give it more time on the dino oil to see if it changes anything. the motor is rebuilt and has about 11k on it, but the lifters were only cleaned and have many more miles. earlier this summer before the syn it was running great, maybe a little tick when it warmed up, and i havent changed anything else.

 

[andymoraitis]

It's a 16 year old car and probably hasn't seen a knock sensor replacement. Inspect the old one for any ooze or discharge and check the torque. If you see any discharge, it's toast and needs to be replaced.

Keep us posted,

Andy

 

[d_tsiawd]

the knock sensor was replaced when i rebuilt. i also checked it this afternoon, i can barely see it but it feels brand new still and is more than finger tight. i also replaced spark plug wires and checked the base timing at 5 btdc today.

i may check the afc wires in case the knock wire is getting a bad connection tommorow

oops i posted this under my friends account

 

[andymoraitis]

Are you reading knock from the AFC or from a logger? If you're reading it from the AFC, it's highly unreliable and not worth looking at. Please post a log if you have one so we can see actual knock at WOT.

 

[Vans]

well im reading it on the mmcd logger, icould try to post a log up here (never tried to transfer one over) would you want to see a part throttle one? i dont want to do a full throttle pull because the part throttle is so bad a nd i know it doesnt all go away at 100%. the one time i did go 100% since it started i saw at least mid 20knk when i began.

i do have an afc and the knock on that thing is not to be trusted, but i did the dyno pull and track on the same settings i have now, just a tiny bit rich for my hacked mas on stock fuel system(+pump) and it ran decent then on race gas.

i switched to pump and got the logger after that, definitely no part throttle knock ever, and i was going a little richer to try to get the knock out of the the low teens with 18-20 timing adv. that was all a few months ago, or the good old days

my high map is +5 all across and the low map same but starts out a little richer and at 1 and 2K

 

[andymoraitis]

I don't use an AFC so I wouldn't be able to help you with your settings, but I'd like to see you post a WOT third gear pull anyway. One pull isn't going to trash anything and the ECU will pull plenty of timing if it needs to.

If the knock sensor is new and you've verified that the torque is correct, I would do the following:

1. Increase octane to see if knock goes away
2. Check ECU for leaking caps
3. Check voltage to fuel pump
4. Change fuel filter
5. Check base timing and verify 5 degrees BTDC

43 counts at part throttle is definitely phantom knock and this almost always points to a failing knock sensor. I'm wondering if you didn't get a defective unit when you re-built the motor. Other than that, the only things I've seen cause that much knock are failed fuel pumps and timing that grossly advanced.

 

[Auto RS T]

Maybe you should actually remove the knock sensor and re-torque it, I was always told around 7ft -pounds. The FSM does not give a torque value.

What about running a 255 with no AFPR? I know the AFC II is controlling the airflow, but what about the fuel pressure?

I've seen 43 counts with a brand new knock sensor, but my set up says it all. I thought I may have torqued the sensor down too much also.

I would love to see a log on here and I'll vouche that one pull won't kill it. I can't even believe mine is drivable, the most knock I get on the top end is low 20 counts. That suprised me! Now I'm waiting for more parts before I start driving it again, until then it sits.

 

[kraka]

Hey, whats up? It's Josh, blue 91awd, David's friend...

Trust me bro, I have the exact (if not worse) situation as you do....Synthetic oil in, I get up to 43 counts when the lifters start going crazy....Free-revving tho I get shitloads also, but part throttle is even worse...

Here's what I've done from the lists above, and I can assure you all we have the same problems:
------110 octane at the track...Knock still present
------Perfect ECU Caps...Swapped other ECU for safe measure, no difference
------Base timing set to 5*, was off about 3* but no difference
------New Fuel Filter
------ 'Newer' knock sensor, but always worked on previous car, looked perfect

These actions were all taken with no luck.....I told the orginal posters friend that I was going to try regular oil, so they tried it also...Looks like it kinda helps, but theres no solution like new lifters....I dont feel like tearing into the head, but if you want to, 3g revised lifters are the way to go

As far as full throttle knock...I dont usually get a ton of it, just whatever reflects my tuning...My phantom knock and full throttle knock are usually seperate, but be careful....If you get part throttle knock, then go WOT, you will get WOT knock...

So, try doing a log where you go WOT after you go partial throttle and dont get knock...If knock starts building up at 20% throttle, dont try to boost, you will get lots of top end knock

 

[Vans]

so yesterday, i pulled the lifters to clean em, and ended up finding every single lifter frozen once i pulled it. so a $274 set later from AMS and the car feels great.

unfortunetly my logger last night ran out of batteries, then this morning froze up so im not sure if all the knock counts are gone, but i can actaully boost without it falling on its face from having the timing pulledback

 

[rjclagett]

If you can, post an update when your logger is up and runnning.

 

[Vans]

im trying right now to get a nice log recorded and up but mine is still being a POS. i gotta look on a buddys logger and with 93pump and 14psi no knock and 15 tadv(a little low?) about. i have no idea how to get the log file to display in the thread like people do, but im going to search on it

 

[kraka]

Hey, I solved my Knock Problem also!! Woot, and for $40!!!

While doing my 16g swap, I had a buddy pick me out the oil to use, since hes had 20+ 1st gens and has solved knock many times....

-4 quarts of Royal Purple Synthetic Oil
- 1/2 quarts of Lucas Oil Stabalizer....Oh boy that shit does wonders!

Because the Stabalizer is so thick, it quiets even the noisest lifters, like mine....

I got a hint of Phantom knock at the startup, but then cruising around testing out the new turbo, running with the logger on, I found I got absolutely no knock!

 

[Vans]

oh thats sweet your knock is gone too, i had put about a 1/4 qt of that lucas in, with no results. who knows maybe some royal purple coulda done it for me but i doubt even that could have done it for my lifters, i couldnt beleive how solid they were once i took them out.

 

[kraka]

Im sure my lifters are pretty bad....Maybe as bad as yours were...But I decided this was worth a try, and so far Im doing pretty well....

1/4 just might not have been enough, btw....

Anyway, hope to see you around...Shame Davids selling the car, but you should still come up with him to streets/strats when he meets up with us on weekends....

Maybe we can race...Stroker 14b vs. Stock w/ 16g....It would be close I think

 

[fwdeclipse]

I have a 2nd gen and I also am getting ph but my lifter are as quiet as they can be.It only does it for the first 5-7 minutes I drive it.After that I wont get any.It happens at part throttle and also if i use my stutterbox or something it will also do it.I checked the knock sensor and its goo free.What else could there be?

 

[Steve93Talon]

I've noticed on 2 separate cars that if you have phantom knock with an OEM composite head gasket, it went away when we switched to a Mitsu MLS gasket. If you have an EPROM ECU, get a Keydiver chip with the phantom knock code or DSMlink, that should help.

 

[fwdeclipse]

Yeah ok thanks I do have the dsmchip and I just ordered it from jeff.Thanks for the help guys.