Losing traction when turning

[disillusions]

So my issue is a little different than the standard traction loss associated with launches, or hard cornering. When I'm making a turn during city driving, especially with the steering wheel at it's lock position (on either side, but especially left), it feels as if the wheels are slipping out from underneath the car. The loss of traction can be so bad that the entire car shakes.

The car this is happening on is a 95 Eclipse GSX with an automatic transmission. As far as any modifications that I could see effecting it would be a urethane master mount kit, and wheels from a 3G (though it was happening with it's stock wheels as well).

I know that this issue has happened to one other person, but they did not find a solution. Has anybody else on here experienced this? Or perhaps know what may be causing it? Even better would be a solution to fix it, but I know it might be asking a bit much.

Oh, and as far as power adders go, it only has hard pipes, intake, and a 1G bov; since I'm sure someone will ask.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

sounds like you just need to do an over haul....

 

[kmetiuk]

Black ass magic?

Strong introduction, mate.

Hahaha, what? Its the stongest kind of ass magic. I like sarcasm, he was being sarcastic, can we not both play along in the same game.

 

[jtmcinder]

No, YOU really are going to regret this some day and GMFB....that is not true. They can automatically transfer torque, either mechanically or electronically. Do you think being properly informed is some kind of black ass magic that miraculously comes out of your ass and populates your brain? That Google somehow knows what you're about to comment on in a forum an magically waves a wand and poof! Your no longer a misinformed condescending tool?

OK. The stage is set.

Go look up a Torsen. They do it automatically via mech. They do it via the thrust washer inside of the diff housing, by using the gear layout that they did, the forces acting against the worm gears inside apply an axial force to the housing. This in turn applies more torque from one wheel to the other. A torsen is actually brillant. How that guy figured those worms out is beyond me. Super super smart. I'm not saying the Torsen is the greatest diff, just the design behind it is smart.

That's an above-average description of a Torsen. Not quite as good as my tech article, but above average. Note, however, that the way it works is by locking (to some extent). The gears jam against the ends of their pockets, stopping them from allowing the two outputs to turn at different speeds.

Now go look up Honda's SH-AWD. They do it automatically via electronics over mech. They have electro magnets inside that apply a varying amount of torque to each wheel. The layout is similar to a viscous diff, but instead of fins, they have little clutch plates inside. 12 plates per wheel, 6 on the wheel side and 6 on the diff side all sandwiched together. Very similar to the clutch in a sport bike. The electro magnets apply a force and squeeze the sandwich together. They can go from fully opened to fully locked. That is how they can apply 70% of the engine torque to only one wheel based off the various sensors around the car

Yep. Like the center in a Scooby or Evo, a computer can be used to control a locking device, too. But, as above, please note that what happens is that the outputs are forced (to some extent, depending on the strength of the clutch) to turn at the same speeds.

So, let's recap so far, shall we? The way all these standard LSDs work is by locking. They don't have little people inside to more torque around. In fact, there is nothing in the device that tries to move torque in any particular direction. Instead, the outputs are forced (to some extent) to turn at the same speeds, making all of the input torque available to both outputs, so whichever output has more grip takes more of the torque. That's the key point to all standard LSDs: the LSD, itself, does not reroute or transfer torque in any particular direction. Instead, by locking, all torque becomes available to both outputs and whichever output can use it, takes it.

Now go lookup a disc type differential, they are similar to a CVT. They have two discs that transfer torque and are in contact with two cones. By varying the angle at which they make contact, they vary the gear ratio, thereby transfer torque again.

This is a completely different animal. I place these in the same category as AYCs. They do not working by locking but actually change the effective gearing to the two outputs on the fly.

These are all non-Evo LSD's and they are all visocus realted, so I dunno where you get your info....but ya.

I could be charitable and say "yes, all these LSDs limit the difference in output speeds in roughly the same way: shearing between plates, juice, or magnets." But since you seem to be in the mood to argue, I'll say that the details of VCs, clutch-packs, and such are so different that to put them all in one pile is ignorant.

This is not true in regards to heat. As a fluid heats up it become less viscous. Hence why automatics have trans fluid coolers and also why when a torque converter in an auto is bagged on and heated up it slips more.

Nope. I used to think this, too, but have since learned that the juice in a VC has the opposite of the usual property. (This is one of the few changes I've had to make to the tech article; for a long time, I didn't believe it, either.) The juice actually becomes stickier as it heats up. It is not the same juice as in an auto trans. Not by a long shot.

All in all, you seem above average. The main problem is that you seem to be buying into the whole "automatic torque biasing" nonsense from the ads. It's actually much simpler: lock the diff and let the grip decide where the torque gets used. There are exceptions, of course, but those are beyond this conversation, I'd say.

 

[jtmcinder]

Hahaha, what? Its the stongest kind of ass magic. I like sarcasm, he was being sarcastic, can we not both play along in the same game.

As everyone knows, Canadians with 97 TSi AWDs are my favorite DSMers in all the world. If your car is black ... or, if by some chance, you are the new owner of DG's car ... then you get all of my love and more.

 

[TunaTalon]

This is not true in regards to heat. As a fluid heats up it become less viscous. Hence why automatics have trans fluid coolers and also why when a torque converter in an auto is bagged on and heated up it slips more.

Nope. I used to think this, too, but have since learned that the juice in a VC has the opposite of the usual property. (This is one of the few changes I've had to make to the tech article; for a long time, I didn't believe it, either.) The juice actually becomes stickier as it heats up. It is not the same juice as in an auto trans. Not by a long shot.

Ok here's something that jtmcinder and TunaTalon can agree on. The fluid in a viscous coupling is a non-newtonian liquid. As it heats up due to slippage the viscosity increases and the torque transfer increases accordingly.

Well we almost agree. I'm pretty much buying into the description of the theory of operation of the inventor of the viscous coupling in patent number US 4040271, and poo on the sales literature.

Don't take it personally jtmcinder. Disagreement with experts is quite normal for me. The economy experts in congress are telling me that the country needs to put my grand daughter deeper in debt and the automotive experts in the white house have decided that cars should have an average fuel economy of 52.5 MPG by 2025. The climate experts in the United Nations are telling me that tree growth depends more on temperature than on rainfall or sunshine or sheep shit. Sheep shit, That's a good place to leave my opinion of UN experts.

 

[jtmcinder]

Ever since my days arguing with Dennis, I have taken nothing personally. I actually like it when there's an edge to a discussion, as it often brings out the best arguments (along with the nastiness) and forces people to write more clearly. Note how I had to go back and explain that when I say "locking" I don't mean like the front hubs on a 4x4 ... I mean anything that prevents the outputs from turning at different speeds. I wouldn't have been as clear about that without you guys getting right back in my face.

 

[kmetiuk]

Okay, I'll take you at your word since I did not realize there was a "special" fluid in the viscous diff. I do know that there are non-Newtonian fluids, but as I understand it, they only have to do with the shear forces in the fluid changing the viscosity of the fluid. I don't have any knowledge in the heat increasing the viscosity area, but I am pretty sure that is not a real thing. I could see a non-Newtonian shear thickening fluid being in a diff since as you turn it faster and increase the difference in velocity between the two plates, then the shear-forces increase and therefore the torque biasing is increased "automatically"

I have worked extensively with non-Newtonian fluids, the last 4 months of my degree was actually designing an entire system around the fluid, so I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but my working knowledge in this area is pretty good.

In regards to the torsen, I was not trying to describe the system infinite detail. However, it does not lock. It can't. If you lift one wheel it will go open. I have designed a few different powertrain setups for some race cars that saw track time and then I analyzed the subsequent data. I have also taken apart a torsen and machined the shit out of it to alter it to the specifications that my race team needed. We have ran the math, applied it in the real world and reiterated a over 4 seasons. I do know torsens reasonably well and I can tell you that they definitely do not lock, they "automatically" basis.

I am also unfamiliar with EVO and Scooby diffs, so I can only comment on diffs I have researched or worked on. I guess maybe I will share the deets on the Honda diff. It is a MONSTER. It weights something like 300+ lbs. It uses HUGE magnets and it is not simply biasing the torque, it is literally locking the diff. It applies enough compressive force to the plates that it locks it. It has too, since it is the fundamental underlying principle to Hondas whole SH-AWD system. They believe (and accurately too) that if you could bias all the torque to the outside wheels when cornering then it causes a moment around the cars neutral axis which helps the car corner better. This is actually I pretty good idea except for the fact that the diff weighs as much as the engine.

Maybe we have different meanings for the word automatic and for the word Locking. By automatic I mean there is a measurable amount of torque transferred from one output to the other via some kind of mechanical or electro over mechanical system. By locking I mean if you lift one wheel it will not go open and drop the torque to the contacting wheel to near zero.

The little people you are talking about to exist. There are little people moving around the torque in your diff via their tiny little hands. And by "little people" I mean "laws of physics" and by "tiny little hands" I mean the "law of the conservation of energy"

Is friction not a transfer of energy? For example, when you press your brake pedal all you are doing is causing your brake pad to slide across your rotor. This sliding uses friction to create heat, the heat is dissipated into the surroundings. Is this not a transfer of energy? There is no locking here, yet there is an "automatic" creation of torque on your wheels in the form of braking torque, which slows you down. If there are clutch plates involved then it works identically to the brakes on your car. Think about it for a minute, when you slip your actual clutch a little bit and move forward you are not applying all the torque from the motor. If you "locked" it, that would mean dropping the clutch and applying all the torque. When you slip your clutch it still making contact but it hasn't locked the plate, yet it is still "automatically" Appling torque. And by automatic I mean you are using your foot to control the amount of slip and therefore the amount of torque the transmission receives. This is 100% analogous to how the Honda diff "automatically" biases the torque. Its not locking the diff, it is just allowing a previously empirically found amount of compressive force to the clutch plates to allow an exact amount of slip to achieve the desired amount of % torque transferred.

But since you seem to be in the mood to argue, I'll say that the details of VCs, clutch-packs, and such are so different that to put them all in one pile is ignorant. 

You say argue, I prefer debate. By one pile do you mean LSD? Are they all not limited slip diffs? What do you mean? What piles do you put them in?

All in all, you seem above average. The main problem is that you seem to be buying into the whole "automatic torque biasing" nonsense from the ads.

I'm not buying into shit. I hate the marketing campaigns that the car companies run more than anyone. More than once I have yelled the TV in disbelief and I've gone to auto shows for the sole purpose of talking their idiotic sales staff into the ground.

What I am buying into is the physics, the research, and the real world experiences I have had with cars. It was my fault for judging you on your earlier post, but you really didn't give much in the way of explaining your post with anything more than sarcasm so I apologize. That being said, don't judge me either. Don't tell me I am above average and drop lines about your tech article. You don't know me and if you want me to read your article drop a link, not hints.

It's actually much simpler: lock the diff and let the grip decide where the torque gets used. There are exceptions, of course, but those are beyond this conversation, I'd say.

This is silly. Have you ever tried to corner hard in a car with a locked diff. Its terrible for hard cornering. If the wheels turn at different speeds then the wheels fight each other which destabilize the vehicle dynamics and produces shitty cornering.

Nope. I used to think this, too, but have since learned that the juice in a VC has the opposite of the usual property. (This is one of the few changes I've had to make to the tech article; for a long time, I didn't believe it, either.) The juice actually becomes stickier as it heats up.

Do you have a link or something? I have never heard of this and you've peaked my curiosity. I am very interested in fluid dynamics. Uber cool field.

 

[TunaTalon]

Do you have a link or something? I have never heard of this and you’ve peaked my curiosity. I am very interested in fluid dynamics. Uber cool field.

A Google search for Non-Newtonian liquids ends up as usual Wikipedia near the top. Even though Wikipedia is notoriously unreliable this article has some good references:

Non-Newtonian fluid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Adding “viscous couplings” to the search yields more direct applications of such fluids in the VC as found in the DSM. Ignoring wikipedia,
Non-Newtonian fluids - real-science has a decent example of the application.

I'm not debating your point about torque transfer in a viscous LSD, just the nature of the fluid in the coupling.

 

[kmetiuk]

That is a good reference. But in only confirms what I have said, I would like to find some info on the temp-dependent shear fluid.

I am firmilar with non-newtonian fluids at a very expert level. To the point of calualting tanisient multidimensional partial differential equations. I'm not going to bore you with the math, but I haven't heard of this fluid that thickens when heated. I'm not calling bullshit on you guys, I'm truly interested. However, its not intutitive that they exist. If you heat stuff it gets less visocus, for example. heat a solid you get a liquid, heat the liquid you get a gas, heat the gas you get plasma. As you heat stuff the molecules get further away. Hence why stuff changes phase. When you heat a liquid (or gas) they get less viscous becuase the distance between the molecules gets further away. The further away they are the less intermolecular interactions and collisions occur. The less collsions and interactions the less viscous stuff is. This is of course assuming that all other factors remain the same and there are no pressure, gravimetric, or rheoligical changes.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Without muddying the issues further, I'd like to comment that, to me "automatic" does not encapsulate manual manipulation of a hydraulic system, full of levers and pivots, activated by the harmony that is my right quadricep and biceps femoris. Nor would "automatic" seem to apply to the friction forces on my brake rotors. To me, and if it did, that would seem to indicate that my car not only automatically adjusts the torque bias front/rear/left/right in any given situation (which it doesn't) but that it would also start transforming energy for me and stop my vehicle without any input from the driver.

I should apologize, let's not get ENTIRELY caught up in semantics - this is surely a battle for the heavweights. Those who have had racing/team experience.

The less collsions and interactions the less viscous stuff is. This is of course assuming that all other factors remain the same and there are no pressure, gravimetric, or rheoligical changes.

Here's an entirely baseless question: Would expanding fluid in a static chamber count as "pressure or gravimetric or rheological" changes?

 

[jtmcinder]

Sometime later I'll respond in detail, kmetiuk, but, for now, I'll say that regardless of whether the limited-slip device has a maximum torque-difference (or torque-transfer) level (e.g., VCs, clutch-packs, and such) or a maximum torque ratio (e.g., Torsens), it still all comes down to the same thing: they try to make the two outputs turn at the same speed. None of them will always succeed. Most, in fact, slip constantly. But by "trying" (if you don't mind the anthropomorphizing) to be locked, they allow more torque to be used by one output compared to the other.

In short, yeah, OK, fine ... Torsens can only produce a ratio and anything times zero is zero. Have you read my bloody article (yet)? We'd make a bunch more progress if we started from the same place.

 

[kmetiuk]

Here's an entirely baseless question: Would expanding fluid in a static chamber count as "pressure or gravimetric or rheological" changes?

Pressure my man...that would be pressure.

In regards to the brake being automatic, I'm not coming across clearly on that one. All I meant was that the liitle people were transfering the energy from the momentum of your car to the heat being created in the brakes automatically. Not that the brakes were automatically being applied. Agree to diagree on the automatic i suppose.


Give me a link to the article and I will read it.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Pressure my man...that would be pressure.

I figured it might need to be pointed out since your above description seemed to exclude this factor.

I'm not too worried about "automatic". I think what the core of that issue is, is whether or not the DSM VC "automatically adjusts power from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip" or if there's even a significant inbetween zone other than open or locked for the diff to be "automatically" adjusting.

I've observed you ask numerous times now for the link, and Jtoby only repeating his suggestion about it being read, equally as many times. I'm not convinced if this if your guys' way of posturing or if you're doing it only for my, and possibly others', amusement.

In case this goes on for pages to come,
http://www.dsmtuners.com/tech.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...17-diffs-lsds-part-1-types-differentials.html
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-drivetrain/177206-diffs-lsds-part-2-types-limited-slip.html

 

[kmetiuk]

Cool. Thanks for the links.

I'm leaning away from posturing and more towards I'm at work and have lots of time to kill. That and I enjoy a good debate. If others are mused thats cool too. I have nothing to prove other than I enjoy debating.

That and a good debate should up my posts quickly with out spamming so I can post my build.

Cheers.

 

[jtmcinder]

Same here and I've heard from Tuna that he's cool with the tone of the banter. As long as we're either learning something or teaching the lurkers, there doesn't seem to be too much damage caused by the fact that we all wear boxers (metaphorically, at least) when posting on the interwebs.

 

[TunaTalon]

My message is "never trust the experts"
And that's my expert opinion.

 

[jtmcinder]

My kids would disagree. Ever since seeing Hoodwinked, they often blurt out at random moments: "never trust a bunny."

 

[kmetiuk]

Glad everyone is kosher with a little back and forth. I don't get the we all wear boxer comment....

With regards to the pressure comment:

The amount of pressure change in the diff would be negligible. When I say pressure change, I mean the magnitude needs to be at least 100 psi difference for any measurable difference in viscosity. It likely needs to be much more than this to see any difference. But I don't think the pressure change in the diff is more than 10-20 psi, if it was it a 100psi I'm betting it would push the seals out. Correct me if I'm wrong, does the diff not have a breather on it to prevent the seals being pushed out? I know the transfer case does for sure, but I haven't looked at my diff that closesly yet.

WRT your article:

Good explanation in Part 1. I think our disconnect for the Torsen is that you are talking about a T-2 and I am talking about a T-1. My apologies, I should have specified.

"However, the function relating the speed difference to the amount of torque is sub-linear and almost as bad as a square-root function." -taken from:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-drivetrain/177206-diffs-lsds-part-2-types-limited-slip.html

Sub-linear? Its either linear or not linear. Sub-linear is not a thing. It is also not a square root function. It is a multivariable partial differential equation. These are very difficult equations, that actually are unsolvable. The only way you can solve the system is empirically. Again you are going to have to trust me on my word, but when I asked several profs, who are the some of the leading experts in their respective fields, and they tell you that the only way to solve it is empirically you tend to believe them.
Because the coefficient on the velocity term is a transient function in itself, it is difficult to solve. The temperature coefficient is also directly proportional to viscosity. It is a negative term though, meaning that as you heat up the fluid it drops in viscosity. I could throw some equations in this post, but I do not have permission from the thessis' author.

Again, my knowledge in this area is limited to my own experiences and research, so if you have an article or link to something on this heating=increase viscosity then I would appreciate it if you could share it with me so I can further my knowledge (as well as admitting defeat in this area)

"Fortunately, the silicone juice gains viscosity as it is heated, which adds more resisting torque. Even more, it also expands as it is heated. At first, this expansion causes more of the plates to be in the fluid, so these two changes both increase the resisting torque. However, at some point, the expansion of the fluid will cause direct metal-to-metal contact within the VC (which is why half the plates have holes and half do not), often producing enough grip to lock it solid. This happens rather suddenly and it is often referred to as the "hump phenomenon." When this occurs, all relative motion between the plates usually stops and the fluid begins to cool and, at some point, the VC will release." -taken from:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-drivetrain/177206-diffs-lsds-part-2-types-limited-slip.html

How much do you think a fluid expands when heated? I do not know what fluid you are talking about so I cannot lookup its coefficient of expansion. Lets look at liquid water for arguments sake. If you start at 0C and heat it to 99C, then 1 m^3 will expand approximately 0.0002 m^3 or rather 1000L of water will expand by 0.2L or 200 mL. A diff holds maybe 1 L? If you apply this to the water you get a difference of 0.2 mL. This is a negligible difference. The reason I use water is that if you realize we are taking water as a liquid near its solid-liquid phase transition temp and heat it to its near liquid-gas transition temp and measure the difference in volume, then it gives you a feel for what the silicone liquid would do as well. Granted, not completely comparable, but if you realize that silicone's temperature of vaporization is in the 1000's and 1000's of degrees, then you might agree that the volume change is probably quite small. All I'm getting at is that the expansion might add at most a few mL in a diff, and is not enough to raise the fluid level any significant amount.

The expansion will not push the plates together. If anything this "hump phenomenon" is caused by a drop in the viscosity of the fluid (well just say for unknown reasons the viscosity dropped). This drop in viscosity reduces the amount of pressure being created by the differential in plate speeds. This loss of viscocity causes the plates to come in contact. I may be mis-interpeting what your intent was in the quote, but the contact is not directly caused by the expansion (and increase in pressure) of the fluid.

Also, the reason the holes are in the plates is so that they can "pick up" or scoop fluid in between the plates. It is "similar" to drilling and slotting your brake rotors to allow air in between.

After reading pipers comments, I agree that we are debating about different things. When you say automatic I believe you are referring to something actually calculating the amount of torque you need on that wheel and applying it, whereas I mean if it transmits any torque to the wheel that slips I consider that automatic.

 

[jtmcinder]

Good explanation in Part 1. I think our disconnect for the Torsen is that you are talking about a T-2 and I am talking about a T-1. My apologies, I should have specified.

Yep. I was describing a T2, since that's what's available for DSMs. Does anyone actually run the worm-gear version (T1) any more? Sadly, the preloaded version of the T2 (i.e., the T2-R) doesn't fit in a DSM.

"However, the function relating the speed difference to the amount of torque is sub-linear and almost as bad as a square-root function." -taken from:http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-drivetrain/177206-diffs-lsds-part-2-types-limited-slip.html

Sub-linear? Its either linear or not linear. Sub-linear is not a thing. It is also not a square root function.

Com'on, man. Think of the audience that I'm writing for. And you know what I meant: the curve bends down, just like weight-to-grip. That's all I'm saying.

“Fortunately, the silicone juice gains viscosity as it is heated, which adds more resisting torque. [major snip]

I don't know much more than what I included in the article. I am quite sure that the hump phenom is caused by plate contrast, tho', as VCs that have been beaten on in this way have scratches on the plates when opened up.

 

[bacjdsm1]

Sounds like you have a stock suspension set up. I have auto-crossed & drifted for SCCA for roughly 8 yrs now so I know a ting or two about this. 1st thing u would want to do is lower ## center of gravity by lowering the vehicle. Afterwards sway bar & strut braces would help as wheel. Then you have to factor in the aspect ratio of your tire size. By having ## suspension too stiff or too soft would cause too much or too little under steer or over steer. It's kinda like math. That's where you would have to start "corner weighting" the vehicle. If you really want to maintain the best traction and power to the ground, I rec. Differential upgrades (exspensive tho) rem tire sire, pressure, and rubber compound play a big part as wheel.,

 

[jtmcinder]

There are better ways to get to the required number of tech posts than the above....

 

[kmetiuk]

The plates do come into conact, though it is unlikely caused by expansion and rather the drop in vsicocity allows the fluid to be "flung" out of the plates due to centrifugal forces. It is being flung out faster than the holes in the plates can scoop it back in and eventually the plates come into contact and lock the diff.

I guess your right, this may be a little high level. My apoligies I didn't get the bent down thing, got hung up on the sub linear comment. My bad.

Im posting else where as well, and I think we're beating a dead horse at this point.

Good chatting with you.

Do you have any info on the heating viscocity thing? I'm not trying to be an ass, im truly interested. Any info or links would be great.

 

[jtmcinder]

Nope. I have nothing more at hand on VC juice. And just between you and me, I never really believed it, so I wish I could find that stuff because it's bugging me again. I was in exactly the same state as you seem to be now ... we know that fluids lose viscosity as the heat, so what's the deal here?

If he ever reappears, the person to ask is ACM. He's the one who pushed to me look into it more after he read my original article that said the juice lost viscosity as it heated.

 

[TunaTalon]

Do you have any info on the heating viscocity thing? I'm not trying to be an ass, im truly interested. Any info or links would be great.

You may have us there. Like jtmcinder, I have a clear memory of such a fluid in the viscous coupling. However I can't find any verification in a Patent document or a scholarly article. The verification that I can find is from sites that are Ok for general use, but not of the quality for me to reference in this debate.

A search for "positive temperature coefficient of viscosity" yields only seven hits, with none of them relevant to viscous couplings. There were 11 more hits in the Scholar section of Google but they didn't look relevant and most in that section are behind a pay wall anyway.

With most of the viscous couplings patents assigned to Ferguson I tried (“viscous coupling” +patent +ferguson “non-newtonian” temperature) and got only seven hits, none of which were relevant.


http://mafija.fmf.uni-lj.si/seminar/files/2010_2011/1-seminar1.pdf is a scholarly article that describes a shear thickening fluid in a viscous coupling. Not a fluid with a positive temperature coefficient of viscosity.

Actually that's a good result. I have always had a problem visualizing temperature control inside a viscous coupling. With viscosity primarily dependent on shear rate, the VC inside my head works much better now. I don't think this research will improve the Vcs in my Talon though.

Good thread. I've increased my understanding of the Talon's AWD system more in the past five days than in the past five years.

 

[kmetiuk]

With viscosity primarily dependent on shear rate, the VC inside my head works much better now. I don't think this research will improve the Vcs in my Talon though.

Hahahaha....I hear that man. If only my talon would respond to my thoughts it would never break, or if it did it would have a nightrider voice booming out sayin "WARNING!! There is a short in the main engine harness near the bend on the PS motor mount. That is why your fuse keeps blowing."

Good thread. I've increased my understanding of the Talon's AWD system more in the past five days than in the past five years.

Me too, I enjoy a good debate. I'm glad no one took offence right away and got all pissy about it.

I'm gonna keep looking for that info. It might be out there somehwere, some things are hard to find because they just aren't talked about enough to populate a google search. Maybe I'll pop in to my prof's office and see if he know anything about it.