Look at how cheap the XS Power kit is now!!

[JayRolla]

You know the more I think about it the more I agree that we should support those vendors who put in the time and research. The only thing I guess I can hope is that these ebay knockoffs will eventually help lower the price on the real thing. Spending 700-1000 dollars still seems rediculous even for a good FMIC kit. I may be wrong but I'm going to agree that the materials and time do not cost close to that after the initial R&D have been paid off, although I have no proof of that. I'm not bashing any of our vendors for their prices, please don't take this post that way, I'm just saying I hope that if anything good does result from these knockoffs its that quality kits will be made more affordable to those of us DSMer's who can't afford them at t he present.

I agree with this 100%. If the race kits where around $500 or a little more I would have spend the extra money on one. But im building a budget dsm, not a race car and im pretty sure this kit will get me to my mark even if it is a little less efficient. My mechanic does short route FMIC kits installed for around $900. He uses unpolished SS piping and the XOXO 4" core. He has cut one of these in half and inspected one. He says it matches a top brand core, I cant remember which one, he was so surprised in the quality and price he decided to make FMIC kits once again. Before the cost was to much and he didnt make any money. My brother drives on the high way every day and the core is still looking great after a year and we have lots of sand on the roads.

 

[Ludachris]

Everybody's got a friend who had x experience with y product.

There's been multiple people in this thread with this one who have not had it corrode on them, or had ANY problems with it. All the problems that 'exist' are from people who don't have any direct experience with the product.

I'm not cheap. I'll pay money for something I feel is worth it. However, I won't spend a hell of a lot of extra cash on something just because it has a name on it.

Greg, you're certainly entitled to your point of view. You still haven't touched on the fact that the cheap vendors reverse engineer their products and don't do any testing. What happens when all the companies who invest in product testing pull out of the DSM market because it's no profitable? Who will the knock-off companies get their designs from then? Who will do the R&D? Nobody. And those of us who want good products will be the ones losing out.

I'm not saying the big brands "should" be able to make a killing on their kits. I think they should price things competitively. But how can they compete with the knock-off companies when they've invested more than just money and assembly time. There is money they need to recoup from R&D. Many people forget that or don't care. They think they're just trying to rip people off. If a company spends thousands of dollars in man hours developing a product, how many kits do they have to sell to make their money back? Think about it. Those who just charge a lot to make a ton of cash, shame on them. But that's not how it usually works.

Some of you guys are either too cheap, too stubborn to see things from a different perspective, or simply don't give a rat's ass about the DSM community enough to try and understand what I'm saying. Do what you think is right and don't complain when our parts market dries up and is full of knock-off parts that haven't gone through any type of testing to ensure optimal performance. I'll continue to support the vendors who test their parts as much as I can - not 100% of the time, but as much as I can.

 

[JayRolla]

Some of you guys are either too cheap, too stubborn to see things from a different perspective, or simply don't give a rat's ass about the DSM community enough to try and understand what I'm saying. Do what you think is right and don't complain when our parts market dries up and is full of knock-off parts that haven't gone through any type of testing to ensure optimal performance. I'll continue to support the vendors who test their parts as much as I can - not 100% of the time, but as much as I can.

You are correct Chris. Agree with you completly. All the parts I buy are good quality, well trusted parts. I would never go any less except in this area.

Have you ever cut open an intercooler and looked at it?? Not much of a design. Same design they have been using for a long time. Then a set of bent SS pipes. I dont see where the R&D would justify them charging $700 for a cheaper street kit or up to $1000 for a race kit. Every other part like motor internals, head parts, turbos ect. I under stand where they charge a bundle for these parts. But just to put a core in the front and bend some pipes to fit, I still dont see why they price the kits so high.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Well, consider that if Garrett/PTE/Spearco/whoever charges a vendor $500 for the core, they vendor still needs to make some cash on it as well.

Not saying that's always the case, but it's something to think about. These name-brand kits (from vendors) don't use house-brand intercoolers.

 

[JayRolla]

Yes so why would an intercooler core cost $500. To me that is crazy, its not "new" technology and its not a precisionly made part, like a turbo or cams(example). Also made of aluminum, dont see why they cost so much. For $200 I would normally expect a crappy intercooler kit. But from all the people ive read reviews from its the same "ebay" core that has been proven by horse power #'s(which I think is better than efficiency #'s), and has pretty good pipes. A little thin. Couplers are rubber and not that great but have heard that the t bolt clamps are pretty good. I will see when I get the kit.

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

Materials are of (my opinion) better quality (more money,) real labor costs (not overseas slave labor wages,) R&D on flow characteristics and amounts of air, trustworthy name with actual customer service, R&D into new designs possibly, R&D for flow characterics through the intercooler to the radiator (think of companies using different thickness fins to promote airflow through it to aid in cooling the radiator,) advertisement, other materials cost (good welders, rods, etc, but that is speculation, since I do not know what the foreign ones utilize,) etc etc

Jesse

 

[JayRolla]

Well the kit came in a day early tonight. Fast shipping and awesome packaging. First off I pull the core out to inspect it. It was a little dirty and had some minor dings and scratches, nothing major. The welds are beautiful and the end tanks are real thick. Not thin like everyone stated. The piping is a little thin, but still thicker than what I expected. They will work just fine. The clamps seem to be also good but the couplers are not that great, but they are sylicone. Im still going to use them just have to make sure I bead the ends, so the pipes dont pop off. Over all im very impressed, so are one of my buddys with the slow boy kit. Now lets see how hard its to install.

 

[suicidal2af]

Nice try, but these are close friends, and I helped put both cores on, as well as welded the piping up for them and such. I've seen these cores on a daily basis, so I'd consider it a personal experience.

Okay, that's cool. None of us have seen any proof of this, and there are quite a few members on this board that have never had this problem. Your friends may very well be running a different ebay core, such as johnny racecar's core which has been known to corrode.

Fact is, you're one person who says that you have some friends who had them corrode vs many people who own the core in question and haven't had that problem.

Greg, you're certainly entitled to your point of view. You still haven't touched on the fact that the cheap vendors reverse engineer their products and don't do any testing. What happens when all the companies who invest in product testing pull out of the DSM market because it's no profitable? Who will the knock-off companies get their designs from then? Who will do the R&D? Nobody. And those of us who want good products will be the ones losing out.

The problem here is that we're not talking about something that takes hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and testing to make. They take an off-the-shelf core, which when bought in mass quantities is dirt cheap, measure to run pipes, and weld it together. How much R&D do you think it took Apex'i to make the N1 catback? Any exhaust shop can put your car on a lift and make an identical catback for less than half the price.

Things that are expensive to engineer I have no problem supporting. But when a company makes something that costs them little to nothing to make, and then charges 1000% markup just because people are willing to pay it, I don't support them. People like to talk about superior customer service, but overcharging customers because they're willing to pay it is not customer service. It's greed.

When I did my first clutch job, a certain shop in PA, we'll call them AVE, quoted me a price of around $400 for the clutch I was looking at. A small, local shop, we'll call them temsar motorsports, used AVE as their distributor. I got the same clutch kit from them for $280. The owner told me their cost on the kit was $240. Knowing that AVE was making a profit from temsar, it's safe to say they were ripping off anyone who purchased that clutch kit from them. Greed, not customer service.

I'm not saying the big brands "should" be able to make a killing on their kits. I think they should price things competitively. But how can they compete with the knock-off companies when they've invested more than just money and assembly time. There is money they need to recoup from R&D. Many people forget that or don't care. They think they're just trying to rip people off.

Easy. They make that money back by economies of scale. Most industries don't make a huge profit on each item they sell -- but they make it back over time, and in the end make a large profit. The way they compete with the knockoffs is to price things competitively. If there were a closer gap between the prices, I'd buy from the better known brand. Most people would. But again, look at the markup we're talking about here -- $700 on an fmic, $400 on an exhaust. They may hide these things under the guise of R&D, but in reality they're just charging an exorbitant cost because they can.

If a company spends thousands of dollars in man hours developing a product, how many kits do they have to sell to make their money back? Think about it. Those who just charge a lot to make a ton of cash, shame on them. But that's not how it usually works.

Unfortunately, that is how it works. Most companies in this industry price their products based on the maximum amount their segment can afford. You can get an exhaust for an 87 accord dirt cheap. However, an exhaust of a DSM is ~500 on average. And an exhaust for a 911 turbo is $2000. Most companies aren't concerned about recouping R&D -- they're concerned about making a shitload of money, and nothing else. Look at HKS' cams -- they're still $600, when you can get FP2s for $400. FP put just as much R&D in as HKS, but charges significantly less money for the cams.

Some of you guys are either too cheap, too stubborn to see things from a different perspective, or simply don't give a rat's ass about the DSM community enough to try and understand what I'm saying. Do what you think is right and don't complain when our parts market dries up and is full of knock-off parts that haven't gone through any type of testing to ensure optimal performance. I'll continue to support the vendors who test their parts as much as I can - not 100% of the time, but as much as I can.

Maybe I'm stubborn, but I see it from both perspectives. Hell, I have Apex'i gauges that cost me damned near a grand. They also do more and function better than a cheap knockoff gauge. But most of the basic parts for these cars aren't something that need testing, other than maybe a test fit.

The market will never dry up, either. You might see some bigger names step out of it, but a company willing to make money and build happy customers will come and replace them. Look at Megan Racing -- you'll be hard pressed to find a single negative comment about almost any of their products, and they are half the price of the competition. They do plenty of R&D on their products -- they've even had several members of this board bring their cars in for testing. And yet they still cost much less without sacrificing quality.

Bottom line is, I'm going to support companies that are customer friendly, as long as there's no sacrifice in quality.

 

[JayRolla]

All I have to say is well put Greg, well put.

 

[GreddyGst]

Isn't SBR fmic kits cores leaking? Ive seen many complains about that.. and the kits cost $800+

If the kits were cheaper I would definitely spend the extra cash. But there is a big difference and cores don't leak.

 

[Ludachris]

Well said Greg. The problem I'm pointing out is that many DSMers don't care about supporting good companies, they are only out to do things on the cheap with no regard as to how they are hurting our market.

Though I know there are obviously some companies out there that price-gouge, there are plenty of others who simply price their products higher because they have to. They don't get the bulk pricing that others get. Most vendors in the DSM market do not sell in bulk as you suggest - look at how small our market is. They can't make money that way. Show me a DSM-specialty vendor who would buy 15,000 FMIC cores - the numbers in our market are just not that big. They probably buy 100 cores at a time on the high end. I'd suspect many buy 10-20 at a time. Do some vendors mark stuff up over the average 15-25%? Sure. Should they make prices more competitve, I'd say so. But you can't assume that just because one vendor jacks their prices up that the others are doing the same thing just because their products are expensive.

I too like to support any company who offers their product at a better price as long as the quality is there. But I'd like to know that they do testing on their products and don't rely solely on the testing done by other companies that they're copying the design from. I'm simply trying to educate people on this thought process. Dirt cheap products can be detrimental to our market. There's no arguing that. You can only argue how detrimental.

 

[JayRolla]

I too like to support any company who offers their product at a better price as long as the quality is there. But I'd like to know that they do testing on their products and don't rely solely on the testing done by other companies that they're copying the design from. I'm simply trying to educate people on this thought process. Dirt cheap products can be detrimental to our market. There's no arguing that. You can only argue how detrimental.

Well if these companys are copying others, then why test them. If the design is the same you shouldnt need to test. Thats where we save the money. Im with you Chris on supporting companys just not companys who sell FMIC kits for $700 or more.

 

[RavenX]

Yeah I agree. I myself have spent for quality parts on my dsm. I only have 3 ebay knock offs on my dsm and that is the short shifter, the fmic, and the radiator. I just don't see why i have to spend $700+ for a fmic kit when i can get the same core and make my own custom pipes for alot cheaper than that.

 

[BGRIPTP]

Its not rocket science to make a 4g63 fast.

 

[timloomis]

Im set on buying this kit when I get the cash.I see all of your points on supporting such and such vender.Ive bought stuff from diamond star motorsports and sbr,and built 2 engines with their products,which I'm VERY happy with.But I wont spend $5-700 for a kit when I can get the same thing for ~$200.Act,hks,apexi,etc..had to start somewhere too.Im sure they werent as expensive when they started out either.But when it comes to upgrading something,I wont choose company supprt over getting a deal.You guys shop at wal-mart?

 

[wishihadatalon]

Im set on buying this kit when I get the cash.I see all of your points on supporting such and such vender.Ive bought stuff from diamond star motorsports and sbr,and built 2 engines with their products,which I'm VERY happy with.But I wont spend $5-700 for a kit when I can get the same thing for ~$200.Act,hks,apexi,etc..had to start somewhere too.Im sure they werent as expensive when they started out either.But when it comes to upgrading something,I wont choose company supprt over getting a deal.You guys shop at wal-mart?

hell no cause they are bringing down america. (That is another topic for another post though)

 

[JayRolla]

Bringing down america. . My fiance has tons of stock with WalMart and would flip out if she heard that. WalMart has given jobs and great prices to the market. They help out way more than they hurt.

 

[EclipseSH21]

What suprises me is Luda is the only one in here defending the vendors. Most of the big name vendors have usernames here, where are they to justify their cause, argue their side of the issue? We can say R&D is the justication for higher pricing, but none of them have popped in and confirmed that....

 

[Coup D E'Tat]

That's because they're all out spending all of the extra money we give them for parts that are overpriced. Because, you know, on top of what I'v ealready posted earlier in this thread, these guys (the vendors) don't have to pay property tax, maintain their buildings, pay for utilities, and eat at night, you know? I mean, why would anyone start a business to make money?

 

[JayRolla]

Yea that would be a good idea for them to back up there products, but if they did jump in all they would do is bash the kit we are talking about. So I dont think they would help much. Even if they did inspect a kit and found it to be pretty good they would still bash it because it would hurt there sales.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Bringing down america. . My fiance has tons of stock with WalMart and would flip out if she heard that. WalMart has given jobs and great prices to the market. They help out way more than they hurt.

Lets see, they hire illegals knowingly and pay them crap wages, they undercut every other company because some how they get everything cheaper than any other company. (my guess is that they feel they buy in such a high volume that they can name their prices because those compnays don't wanna lose business. But again another topic for another thread.

As for the venders maybe they would like to keep it classy and not get in here and bash potential customers for buying crap products.

Oh and what do you mean companys have other expenses? j/p You mean minimum wage, labor laws, various other bills?

If I ever rip off a product I will just move to china and force some kid to do it for $.10 an hour and whip the shit out of him if a weld looks bad.

 

[JayRolla]

If I ever rip off a product I will just move to china and force some kid to do it for $.10 an hour and whip the shit out of him if a weld looks bad.

Thats horrible. Love how your business ethics are. Also I dont see anything with cut throught business. Thats how its done. I work in the computer liquidation business and thats how we do so well. Have the lowest price on the market.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Thats horrible. Love how your business ethics are. Also I dont see anything with cut throught business. Thats how its done. I work in the computer liquidation business and thats how we do so well. Have the lowest price on the market.

Well its a harsh reality but thats how chinese knock off parts are made. Why do you think there is such a harsh push for a new trade policy. China doesn't play fair at all.

Also this extends far beyond dsm parts.

 

[JayRolla]

Well its a harsh reality but thats how chinese knock off parts are made. Why do you think there is such a harsh push for a new trade policy. China doesn't play fair at all.

Also this extends far beyond dsm parts.

Yea I know thats how the parts are made, but I was surprised you said you would do it too. Not me, my business has cut throught pricing and we operate out of the US

 

[Ludachris]

Yea that would be a good idea for them to back up there products, but if they did jump in all they would do is bash the kit we are talking about. So I dont think they would help much. Even if they did inspect a kit and found it to be pretty good they would still bash it because it would hurt there sales.

And would you have good things to say about a kit that is basically a copy of your tested design, one that takes advantage of the money you've invested in your R&D? I think it's better they don't get involved. In fact, I'd ask them not to. Nothing good will come out of it. If you want to send them feedback directly, feel free.

It's funny, I can understand everyone wanting a good deal and some of the frustration with high prices. But it seems that most everything I've said has fallen on deaf ears. Now people are wanting the vendors to come in here and defend their pricing... I'll quit now before I become more frustrated.