LETS TALK: Aquamist or Coolingmist water injection?

[Joesmoke]

Yep, run her lean and mean, crank the boost and timing

Even with my 660's and an eprom to compensate for them, Ill still pull 10 to 20 percent fuel out...to start.

 

[Jaraxle]

If you took the time to figure out how much gets injected you could probably get a good idea how much octane your running. And how would it be unmetered? You have something to log with. So you'll be able to get it in check.

I did:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=50397138#post50397138

The problem (at least without a variable controller and a pump that supports variable injection) is that at 15psi I'm under 3000rpm. The pump is flowing full bore, pumping even more water (+methanol) than when it hits 20psi higher (more air!) in the higher rpm. Now too much water (relative...please don't start the hydrolock BS) doesn't hurt anything, but I'm not sure about too much methanol. Hence the unmetered fuel statement. I know it doesn't seem to hurt, yada yada yada. To each his own. My only goal was knock control. Water is #1 for knock quenching. Period. A nice water methanol mix will give you more power, yes, but if you have the supporting fuel/air system, you may as well of turned up the fuel/air the "proper" way.

Distilled water is also cheaper !
My .02 from water injection experience.

-Jaraxle

 

[scottsee]

I agree with Jaraxle, though personaly, i'm still going to use it.

Meth is a pretty interesting fuel. Gravity weight, it's heavier then unleaded racing fuel (around .79); Has a fairly high BTU/lB heat energy(9,800); It's latent heat property is around 470 while its best Fuel/air ratio for power's around 1:5.1... One lb of petrol fuel has the energy potential of about 19,000 Btu. Meth being so much lower produces less than 52% of the heat heat energy of 1lb of petrol fuel. So not only does it cool the intake charge during atomisation, has a latent heat property of 3.5 times that of pump gas @ 1/2 the heat!!

So you would think that you would have lower combustion temps, right? Nope. Because of its high fuel/air ratio it actually produces more heat energy durring combustion becasue it takes so much more fuel per pound of air durring combustion. Lost you yet?. Check it out..

{(Fuel type a AFR)/(Fuel type b AFR)*BTU/lb} = Heat energy.

Typical race gas has a best power burn ratio of about 1:12.7. Using 12.7/5.1 in that equation will give you 24,402. Subtract 100 to get it into a %, that equals about +28.4% the heat energy of race fuel durring combustion. Meth will also require larger injectors then your typical H20 injection. You can get away with 15%-%25 water/fuel ratio with a typical H20 injection system. Meth will require more along the lines of 25%-50% Meth/fuel ratio... On top of that, you will need to bump your timing up substantially because it burns so much slower. So if your meth system hick-ups or something happens and shuts off during a WOT very bad things could happen.

Just my 2 pennys. Good luck with your injection system... I bought my 150psi single stage kit from Coolingmist Ebay store for $199 shipped. I regret it. I've dumped over $230 in extra's to get it the way I want it. Do it once, do it right!

 

[90blacktsiawd]

To each his own. I enjoy being able to run more boost, more timing and lean it across the upper rpm's and meth lets me do it.

Oh and you can't say distilled water is some much cheaper. If you knwo where to look, you can find 12 oz. of methanol for .98.

 

[Tom N]

I buy methanol for $2 a gallon.
You can not compare water injection to meth injection.

 

[2-0turbo]

I buy methanol for $2 a gallon.
You can not compare water injection to meth injection.

What is your source for methanol at this price? Racetrack pump?

 

[Tom N]

What is your source for methanol at this price? Racetrack pump?

Yes, I buy it at my local track.

 

[Jaraxle]

I buy methanol for $2 a gallon.
You can not compare water injection to meth injection.

Why not ? Because methanol is fuel, and water is not ? You must be talking about straight methanol ? I cannot imagine having a tank of that flamable fuel in my rear washer tank ! I'd get kicked off the race track (road/racing). Lot's of guys are running windshield washer fluid (winter mix) which is a mix of the two (safe). The comparison is valid, and should be discussed. With water only your quenching knock, and can raise boost (fuel through injectors and air) and timing = more power. With the mix, you can also do the same, but the fuel (methanol) is not precisely metered.

As scottsee wrote (nice tech info):

"So you would think that you would have lower combustion temps, right? Nope. Because of its high fuel/air ratio it actually produces more heat energy durring combustion becasue it takes so much more fuel per pound of air durring combustion."

So it's all about what your trying to do. I believe if your going for street + road/racing you should run straight distilled water. If your doing 1/4 or 1/8mile stuff, and your fuel system cannot give you the power you need, then these intake plumbed injetors will essentially supply more fuel (methanol) to give you more power. Does that make sense ?

Distilled water is $0.60 a gallon at my local walmart !

-Jaraxle

 

[RavenX]

I have the enginerunup kit and its working very good. I started out with distilled water and then mixed in the yellow Heet which is 99% meth with water. Am at a 50/50 or less mix of the 2 and it definitely helps out alot.

 

[Tom N]

Why not ? Because methanol is fuel, and water is not ? You must be talking about straight methanol ? I cannot imagine having a tank of that flamable fuel in my rear washer tank ! I'd get kicked off the race track (road/racing). Lot's of guys are running windshield washer fluid (winter mix) which is a mix of the two (safe). The comparison is valid, and should be discussed. With water only your quenching knock, and can raise boost (fuel through injectors and air) and timing = more power. With the mix, you can also do the same, but the fuel (methanol) is not precisely metered.

As scottsee wrote (nice tech info):

"So you would think that you would have lower combustion temps, right? Nope. Because of its high fuel/air ratio it actually produces more heat energy durring combustion becasue it takes so much more fuel per pound of air durring combustion."

So it's all about what your trying to do. I believe if your going for street + road/racing you should run straight distilled water. If your doing 1/4 or 1/8mile stuff, and your fuel system cannot give you the power you need, then these intake plumbed injetors will essentially supply more fuel (methanol) to give you more power. Does that make sense ?

Distilled water is $0.60 a gallon at my local walmart !

-Jaraxle

First off I dont use a windshield washer tank for the meth. That would be stupid.
Also water will never work as well as strait alcohol. I can show you logs with 35psi of boost on a GT35 using pump gas and meth injection and no knock. Can you do that with just water injection? The answer is no. If you want a streetable car that runs on strickly pump gas(no race gas) but can make a ton of hp when full throttle, a progressive meth injection set up is the most cost effective way to go. Meth is not just a fuel. It cools the intake charge better than water and is a great anti-knock agent. Alcohol is very forgiving.

 

[scottsee]

90tsiawd. You have to admit, without a good understanding on the opperations of our EFI systems injecting 100% meth is highly not recomended. Because of its abnormal burn ratios and high timing advance It would confuse most day-to-day auto enthusists. I personaly wouldn't recomend 100% meth without a wideband and some sort of EFI mangment system that can controle timing. Like MAFTgen2, Dsmlink, EMS, SDS, exc.

 

[Jaraxle]

First off I dont use a windshield washer tank for the meth. That would be stupid.

Agreed. However, whatever you use may use may not be allowed for road/race, including HPDE, autocross etc. Something about having a fuel OTHER than gas in the car.

"Also water will never work as well as strait alcohol."

Water is #1 at fighting knock. It has the highest specific heat. So not sure what "work as well" means.

"I can show you logs with 35psi of boost on a GT35 using pump gas and meth injection and no knock. Can you do that with just water injection?"

Yes. I belive so, but I haven't done it myself.

"It cools the intake charge better than water and is a great anti-knock agent. Alcohol is very forgiving"

Agreed. It evaporates faster, cooling the charge more than water. But it is not a better anti-knock agent than water.

I'm going to the dyno to tune my changes. I COULD do some pulls with water, and I have a jug of winter mix washer fluid. That would be awesome to have a back to back comparison of the a/f ratio and power.... hmmmm. Too bad they limit how many pulls. Last time I went "over" the limit, and they charged me extra. That - and I gained 20hp at the wheels for something like 3000rpm. So they felt I "got my money worth".

-Jaraxle

 

[Tom N]

90tsiawd. You have to admit, without a good understanding on the opperations of our EFI systems injecting 100% meth is highly not recomended. Because of its abnormal burn ratios and high timing advance It would confuse most day-to-day auto enthusists. I personaly wouldn't recomend 100% meth without a wideband and some sort of EFI mangment system that can controle timing. Like MAFTgen2, Dsmlink, EMS, SDS, exc.

I dont disagree with that.
I recomend to anyone I do tunning for that they need to have a wideband.
All I am saying is water injection will never make as much power (all else equal) as alcohol injection.
I will not get into a argument over it either.
Anyone who wants to believe squirting water in thier motor is going to make them more power than running alcohol is fine by me.

 

[silkcity100]

what if you tune the car without water/meth injection to a safe level arount 5 counts of knock ,then spray the water/meth injection to help get rid of the knock this way if you ever run out of water or if gets clocked your motor wont go boom

 

[Jaraxle]

90tsiawd- No arguments at all !
You'll make more power with methanol. Yes. Water is not fuel.
I'm glad to have someone knowledgable partaking in this informative thread.

I'm strongly suggesting that for any type of race event other than stright line racing, unmetered (not implying untuned) fuel (methanol, alcohol, NOS, ethanol, cough syrup) is not (in my opinion) the way to go and will most likely not be allowed.
(side note: dyno queens should run methanol or any of the above flavors)

That's it.

Street (which can be considered short burst 1/4 type racing, or at the extreme road/racing) can be debated, so let's not go there.

Moving on to the purpose of this thread... I'm impressed with coolingmist parts, including their clever crack valve, which avoids ANY control solenoids (and associated wiring!). Bench testing showed they really do "kill" the flow upon de-juicing the pump. Turn on is just as fast. Very simple. You can see pick in my gallery.

-Jaraxle

 

[Tom N]

90tsiawd- No arguments at all !
You'll make more power with methanol. Yes. Water is not fuel.
I'm glad to have someone knowledgable partaking in this informative thread.

I'm strongly suggesting that for any type of race event other than stright line racing, unmetered (not implying untuned) fuel (methanol, alcohol, NOS, ethanol, cough syrup) is not (in my opinion) the way to go and will most likely not be allowed.
(side note: dyno queens should run methanol or any of the above flavors)

That's it.

Street (which can be considered short burst 1/4 type racing, or at the extreme road/racing) can be debated, so let's not go there.

Moving on to the purpose of this thread... I'm impressed with coolingmist parts, including their clever crack valve, which avoids ANY control solenoids (and associated wiring!). Bench testing showed they really do "kill" the flow upon de-juicing the pump. Turn on is just as fast. Very simple. You can see pick in my gallery.

-Jaraxle

Meth injection is not allowed in any form of sanctioned racing that I know of.
Race gas is for race tracks.
To me meth injection is for those that are looking to make as much power as possible with pump gas on the streets. It is not for the average afc tunner.
Water injection is for those that are looking to just run a few more pounds of boost on thier rather simple car set up with out the use of race gas or more complicated alcohol set ups.

 

[RavenX]

Personally I prefer using meth than water in the street. Why because although water does help reduce knock it didn't totally reduce it. I have dsmlink and on straight pump gas i usually run 12-13 degrees of timing which is more than acceptable. Leaving the timing set at that and going to 11.0:1 or so was great but once i started to add timing forget it i just couldn't get away with 16 degrees of timing with water. With the meth though its a whole different thing. I can run full timing and 28psi or so on pump gas which is great. I also went from a water solenoid based setup to the new brass check valve everyone is now offering. Its alot of better in my opinion. Less wiring and something less to worry about since i had one water solenoid fail on me.

 

[Joesmoke]

There was a 15 page thread on turbobuick.com about why water SHOULD be better the straight methanol. The science is there....but most people that have run straight meth report better performance.

I got tired of trying to figure it out and just enjoy it now

 

[RavenX]

It really all depends on the car. Some cars like better water than meth while others are the other way around. Mine loves the meth.