Knock Knock, Whos there?

[DanThMan1983]

Hey guys. Lots of Knock. Here is the story. Brand new engine, SAFC II, Data Logger, 550s, walbro255, afpr, mhi big 16g, DKS1 cams, new knock sensor. Had trouble getting it to idle correctly but after setting the ignition timing and the biss screw everything is great. So I go out to tune and well...

This is my first log EVER. Tell me what I need to do guys. Seems like no matter what knock just pegs out @ 43. I add fuel all over and it seems to run worse and knock is unaffected. Sorry if I missed anything let me know guys. Sorry everything doesnt line up after I paste it Also its a 2nd and 3rd gear pull. I didnt go much higher than 4k RPM beacuse the hesitation was so bad im assuming from all the knock.

TIMA FTRL FTRM FTRH O2-R ISC TPS MAFS ERPM KNCK INJP O2-F
36.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.12 228.00 20.39 377.40 2593.75 1.00 2.05 0.37
36.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.14 228.00 20.78 377.40 2593.75 0.00 2.30 0.39
36.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.70 228.00 21.96 389.98 2593.75 4.00 2.56 0.43
35.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.31 228.00 26.27 427.72 2562.50 5.00 3.58 0.66
20.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.72 228.00 36.47 496.91 2625.00 43.00 5.12 0.92
11.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.82 228.00 38.43 509.49 2687.50 43.00 5.12 1.05
10.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.23 228.00 38.82 509.49 2750.00 43.00 5.63 1.17
9.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.18 228.00 39.22 509.49 2843.75 43.00 5.89 1.31
6.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.51 228.00 39.61 509.49 2906.25 43.00 6.40 1.48
4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 40.00 515.78 3062.50 42.00 9.73 1.68
0.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 40.78 515.78 3156.25 41.00 11.52 1.93
-3.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 45.49 540.94 3250.00 43.00 14.08 2.22
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 47.06 547.23 3406.25 42.00 13.57 2.30
-3.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 48.24 553.52 3531.25 43.00 14.08 2.42
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 50.98 566.10 3625.00 43.00 14.59 2.59
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 54.90 578.68 3750.00 43.00 15.36 2.73
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 65.49 616.42 3875.00 42.00 16.38 3.02
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 85.49 641.58 3968.75 41.00 17.41 3.30
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.88 228.00 100.00 641.58 4062.50 43.00 17.92 3.43
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.88 228.00 100.00 641.58 4031.25 43.00 18.43 3.55
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.88 228.00 100.00 641.58 4093.75 43.00 18.43 3.61
-4.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.70 228.00 13.33 553.52 3781.25 33.00 2.05 0.33
35.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.53 228.00 19.61 383.69 3062.50 0.00 3.58 0.94
26.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.78 228.00 37.25 503.20 3031.25 7.00 5.12 1.19
25.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.68 228.00 41.96 522.07 3031.25 6.00 5.89 1.40
21.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.53 228.00 44.71 540.94 3062.50 5.00 8.70 1.62
14.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.88 228.00 45.49 540.94 3125.00 4.00 10.75 1.87
11.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 46.67 547.23 3187.50 12.00 13.06 2.13
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 50.59 566.10 3250.00 43.00 14.85 2.22
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 52.16 566.10 3218.75 43.00 14.85 2.30
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 71.37 635.29 3218.75 43.00 15.62 2.42
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 79.61 641.58 3281.25 43.00 15.87 2.46
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 81.18 641.58 3281.25 42.00 15.87 2.54
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 100.00 641.58 3343.75 42.00 16.13 2.54
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 100.00 641.58 3343.75 43.00 16.13 2.55
-5.00 85.02 99.84 99.84 0.90 228.00 74.51 641.58 3375.00 43.00 15.87 2.44

 

[GVR4592]

Try datalogging only RPM, Timing, and Knock, it will make the log much easier to understand. What are your safc settings? What is your fuel pressure? Have you checked over everything mechanically? What type of fuel are you using? What was boost at for that run? What plugs are you using and what gap?

 

[DanThMan1983]

Try datalogging only RPM, Timing, and Knock, it will make the log much easier to understand. What are your safc settings? What is your fuel pressure? Have you checked over everything mechanically? What type of fuel are you using? What was boost at for that run? What plugs are you using and what gap?

TIMA ERPM KNCK
36.00 2593.75 1.00
36.00 2593.75 0.00
36.00 2593.75 4.00
35.00 2562.50 5.00
20.00 2625.00 43.00
11.00 2687.50 43.00
10.00 2750.00 43.00
9.00 2843.75 43.00
6.00 2906.25 43.00
4.00 3062.50 42.00
0.00 3156.25 41.00
-3.00 3250.00 43.00
-4.00 3406.25 42.00
-3.00 3531.25 43.00
-4.00 3625.00 43.00
-4.00 3750.00 43.00
-5.00 3875.00 42.00
-4.00 3968.75 41.00
-4.00 4062.50 43.00
-4.00 4031.25 43.00
-4.00 4093.75 43.00
-4.00 3781.25 33.00
35.00 3062.50 0.00
26.00 3031.25 7.00
25.00 3031.25 6.00
21.00 3062.50 5.00
14.00 3125.00 4.00
11.00 3187.50 12.00
-5.00 3250.00 43.00
-5.00 3218.75 43.00
-5.00 3218.75 43.00
-5.00 3281.25 43.00
-5.00 3281.25 42.00
-5.00 3343.75 42.00
-5.00 3343.75 43.00
-5.00 3375.00 43.00

SAFC
points LO HI
1000 +11 +0
2000 +7 +3
2600 +7 +3
3000 +5 +4
3600 +5 +4
4000 +5 +4
4400 +5 +4
5000 +5 +8
5400 +5 +8
6000 +5 +10
6400 +5 +10
7000 +5 +12

low throttle 30% Hi throttle 80%

Fuel pressure is 40. Fuel is 91 octane I should mention this car has been down since december and is running winter blend 91. 10lbs boost. Plugs I left them at the pregap and they are NGK 6ES'.

 

[GVR4592]

Ok well the fuel is most likely the problem. I would drain it and refill with some fresh fuel. Pull the plugs and gap them to .030, and do a boost leak test.

Assuming you have the stock unhacked maf, reset your fuel pressure to 37 psi, set the SAFC corrections to -15(a little rich but it gives you room to work with), I would change the Hi Lo threshold to 60-70. Verify that base timing is at 5 degrees and give it another shot.

I would also inspect the knock sensor, if it's never been changed it's probably a good time to do so.

 

[DanThMan1983]

Ok well the fuel is most likely the problem. I would drain it and refill with some fresh fuel. Pull the plugs and gap them to .030, and do a boost leak test.

Assuming you have the stock unhacked maf, reset your fuel pressure to 37 psi, set the SAFC corrections to -15(a little rich but it gives you room to work with), I would change the Hi Lo threshold to 60-70. Verify that base timing is at 5 degrees and give it another shot.

I would also inspect the knock sensor, if it's never been changed it's probably a good time to do so.

Really think fuel would cause all that? Set the corrections to -15 at what rpm range? Why change the threshold 30/80 is not good? I have verified base timing is 5*. I will do all of what you said tomorrow except the SAFC I dont quite understand.

 

[GVR4592]

You have 550 injectors, stock is 450. That is a 18% difference. You need to compensate for those injectors by adjusting the SAFC to fool the ecu into thinking you still have 450 injectors. It does this by changing the airflow signal to the ecu. You would do this at all rpm's. If you set it at -18 you would theoretically end up with somewhat stock fueling at this point. Setting it to -15 will be slightly richer and give you a safer starting point. That's when you start the fine tuning.

Lowering the threshold will give you more fuel in part throttle conditions. With a small quick spooling turbo a higher threshold can give you knock at part throttle. When I had a 16g, 550's and SAFC, 65 worked the best for me.

This is assuming you have a stock unhacked air sensor.

Have you read the tuning guide?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238410&highlight=tuning+guide

 

[DanThMan1983]

You have 550 injectors, stock is 450. That is a 18% difference. You need to compensate for those injectors by adjusting the SAFC to fool the ecu into thinking you still have 450 injectors. It does this by changing the airflow signal to the ecu. You would do this at all rpm's. If you set it at -18 you would theoretically end up with somewhat stock fueling at this point. Setting it to -15 will be slightly richer and give you a safer starting point. That's when you start the fine tuning.

Lowering the threshold will give you more fuel in part throttle conditions. With a small quick spooling turbo a higher threshold can give you knock at part throttle. When I had a 16g, 550's and SAFC, 65 worked the best for me.

This is assuming you have a stock unhacked air sensor.

Have you read the tuning guide?

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238410&highlight=tuning+guide

I have read the tuning guides, I just have trouble understanding every bit of it having no expierience with an SAFC before. (Bought the car with it.) so if I am understanding you correctly at all my throttle points you want me to set them to -15% correction and change the threshold to low 60% high 80%? Sorry if I am wrong just trying to understand all this. Also, whats going to happen before 60%?

 

[GVR4592]

I have read the tuning guides, I just have trouble understanding every bit of it having no expierience with an SAFC before. (Bought the car with it.) so if I am understanding you correctly at all my throttle points you want me to set them to -15% correction and change the threshold to low 60% high 80%? Sorry if I am wrong just trying to understand all this.

That is correct for the correction factor(-15), but for the Lo and Hi, set them to Lo 30 and Hi around 60-70. This is just a starting point, you may find that lowering it to 60 is too rich at part throttle. I always like to start on the rich side and move leaner, it's safer that way.

If you set them to Lo 30 and Hi 80, that means that at under 30% throttle you are using the Lo map, above 80% throttle you are using the Hi map. Anything in between is an interpolation of the two maps based on throttle position.

You don't want to set it at -15 then go out and do WOT runs. You'll need to get your fuel trims correct first by adjusting the LO throttle settings. Then transfer those settings to the HI throttle map.

So start with -15, adjust the LO throttle until the fuel trims are correct, take the settings you ended up with on LO throttle and transfer them to HI throttle. Then do the WOT tuning

It may end up being close to 0 or it may end up at -20, every setup is different. Before you continue make sure you do a boost leak test and verify that the air sensor is unhacked. Both of those will drastically change your tune.

 

[DanThMan1983]

That is correct for the correction factor(-15), but for the Lo and Hi, set them to Lo 30 and Hi around 60-70. This is just a starting point, you may find that lowering it to 60 is too rich at part throttle. I always like to start on the rich side and move leaner, it's safer that way.

If you set them to Lo 30 and Hi 80, that means that at under 30% throttle you are using the Lo map, above 80% throttle you are using the Hi map. Anything in between is an interpolation of the two maps based on throttle position.

You don't want to set it at -15 then go out and do WOT runs. You'll need to get your fuel trims correct first by adjusting the LO throttle settings. Then transfer those settings to the HI throttle map.

So start with -15, adjust the LO throttle until the fuel trims are correct, take the settings you ended up with on LO throttle and transfer them to HI throttle. Then do the WOT tuning

It may end up being close to 0 or it may end up at -20, every setup is different. Before you continue make sure you do a boost leak test and verify that the air sensor is unhacked. Both of those will drastically change your tune.

Wow I really didnt understand.. now I do. I was thinking before 30% was stock fueling or something , above 30% was the low map, and above 80% was the high map. But forget that I see what your saying. Thanks for all the good info and answering all my questions you were of great help!!

EDIT>> I would give you rep points but your maxed out!

 

[DanThMan1983]

Allright guys. I am still having problems with knock. Here is what I have done. Double checked to make sure timing is @ 5*, regapped my plugs to .30, filled up with fresh 91 octane fuel, changed all my fuel settings on my safc to -15 on the low and hi trims, havent touched boost because im only running 10lbs and I am seeing knock before I even go into boost. I am starting to think its phantom knock..I got dks1 cams and I reused my lifters. I figured it would be okay since they didnt tick before but now they tick like crazy. Is there a cure for noisy lifters or is it just to replace them?

I think this is what I need to do to fix the knock if its real..
1. Change my throttle threshold from 30/80 to 60/80 as mentioned earlier. I meant to do it but I forgot.

2. Check out my Knock sensor and make sure its not too tight.

3. Boost leak test.

anything else I should try/change? more suggestions?

 

[Gromit]

Allright guys. I am still having problems with knock. Here is what I have done. Double checked to make sure timing is @ 5*, regapped my plugs to .30, filled up with fresh 91 octane fuel, changed all my fuel settings on my safc to -15 on the low and hi trims, havent touched boost because im only running 10lbs and I am seeing knock before I even go into boost. I am starting to think its phantom knock..I got dks1 cams and I reused my lifters. I figured it would be okay since they didnt tick before but now they tick like crazy. Is there a cure for noisy lifters or is it just to replace them?

I think this is what I need to do to fix the knock if its real..
1. Change my throttle threshold from 30/80 to 60/80 as mentioned earlier. I meant to do it but I forgot.

2. Check out my Knock sensor and make sure its not too tight.

3. Boost leak test.

anything else I should try/change? more suggestions?

A couple things...The easiest way to check if you've got phantom knock is to throw in some race gas & see if it goes away. If it does, it's real knock.

As for lifter tick - if you search around here you'll find lots of threads on this topic & some people have various methods of reducing the tick, like using Lucas Oil Stabilizer. A set of the revised, or 3rd generation, lifters (note: these are not from the 3G Eclipse), is the best cure & can be had for roughly $8 each.

Definitely boost leak test if you haven't done that already. No point even trying to tune if you don't know whether or not your system leaks.

Looking at that 1st log you posted, you've not negative timing amounts & your TPS & RPM's are all over the place. What logger program are you using & is it correctly set-up for your vehicle?

 

[DanThMan1983]

mmcd on palmIIIc. thanks for all the info gromit.

 

[kraka]

Right, its good to determine if this is phantom knock or not.....Gromit gave some good examples on how to get rid of phantom knock if it turns out thats what it is, personally, like mentioned, I used Lucas Oil stabalizer and it sure as hell did the job...Do a search on phantom knock and find the recent threads involving it....

Make sure the knock sensor is functioning and tightened to spec....

Run some race gas for a while and see if anything changes...I imagine right now all that timing being pulled must feel like shit....If you were getting this much real 43 counts of knock tho, the motor would be gone pretty damn fast

 

[DanThMan1983]

If you were getting this much real 43 counts of knock tho, the motor would be gone pretty damn fast

scaring me man. so you guys think my ticking lifters is the cause of the phantom knock? I put in 4 quarts mobil 1 + lucas and a mobil 1 filter and the damn ticking is still there. Im going nuts man. The car does run like shit with all that retarded timing.

 

[DanThMan1983]

Also I made a handy dandy boost leak tester but ran into some trouble. Hooked it up on the intake side of the turbo and tried using a harbor freight mini compressor to pump it up but the thing pumps up so slow the pressure bleeds off by the time I shut it off to listen for a leak. Also tried a bike pump, each pump goes up to about 8psi then instantly bleeds off, couldnt hear or feel a leak anywhere. I wanna get an air tank from napa but they are like 30 bucks for the 5 gallon one. Judging from my ### bike bump and mini harbor freight compressor do you guys think I have a boost leak? anyone else tried it with a bike pump? would a boost leak cause knock?

 

[1stGenRocks]

wont work with a bike pump . buy the tank or bum one off a friend. pump it up with the little compressor then try it.

 

[Gromit]

Also I made a handy dandy boost leak tester but ran into some trouble. Hooked it up on the intake side of the turbo and tried using a harbor freight mini compressor to pump it up but the thing pumps up so slow the pressure bleeds off by the time I shut it off to listen for a leak. Also tried a bike pump, each pump goes up to about 8psi then instantly bleeds off, couldnt hear or feel a leak anywhere. I wanna get an air tank from napa but they are like 30 bucks for the 5 gallon one. Judging from my ### bike bump and mini harbor freight compressor do you guys think I have a boost leak? anyone else tried it with a bike pump? would a boost leak cause knock?

Yeah, a bike pump ain't gonna cut it. An air tank or compressor with a regulator is really what you need. Try breaking down the boost leak test into sections - start up at the throttle body elbow & just check that area of the system. Starting at the turbo inlet if you've never done it before allows the air to leak out of so many potential places that you'll never isolate them all. Common leak locations are the throttle body gaskets & shaft seals, BOV, BISS o-ring, injector seals, etc. Pressurize the system & spray soapy water all over the area you're checking.

If you're lifters are ticking as badly as you indicate & you've already used the Lucas Oil Stabilizer, then I'd say it's probably time for new lifters. The revised lifters can be had on ebay for something like $95 per set.

Since you're running MMCD, do you know for sure it's set up for your vehicle? Look under the Preferences section. There are 2 options - 1 for DSM's & 1 for the 3000GT/Stealth. If it's not set up for DSM, you're logger info will be incorrect.

 

[DanThMan1983]

Yeah, a bike pump ain't gonna cut it. An air tank or compressor with a regulator is really what you need. Try breaking down the boost leak test into sections - start up at the throttle body elbow & just check that area of the system. Starting at the turbo inlet if you've never done it before allows the air to leak out of so many potential places that you'll never isolate them all. Common leak locations are the throttle body gaskets & shaft seals, BOV, BISS o-ring, injector seals, etc. Pressurize the system & spray soapy water all over the area you're checking.

If you're lifters are ticking as badly as you indicate & you've already used the Lucas Oil Stabilizer, then I'd say it's probably time for new lifters. The revised lifters can be had on ebay for something like $95 per set.

Since you're running MMCD, do you know for sure it's set up for your vehicle? Look under the Preferences section. There are 2 options - 1 for DSM's & 1 for the 3000GT/Stealth. If it's not set up for DSM, you're logger info will be incorrect.

Thanks for the tips. And yeah im absolutely sure its set on my vehicle. do the numbers really seem that wrong? also, how does a boost leak cause knock?

 

[Gromit]

Thanks for the tips. And yeah im absolutely sure its set on my vehicle. do the numbers really seem that wrong? also, how does a boost leak cause knock?

OK, good deal on the logger settings.

It's not necessarily that the boost leaks are causing your particular knock readings. Boost leaks usually cause you to run rich (there is such a thing as rich knock & you could search to find info on that). The MAF says "I see x amount of air coming in." It sends the signal to the ECU & the ECU says "For x amount of air I want y amount of fuel" & opens the injectors accordingly. But, if after the MAF reads x amount of air, a bunch of it is lost due to leaks in the system, you now have too much fuel in the chamber. If the opposite happens & more air is sucked in than the MAF accounted for, you have not enough fuel in the chamber & run lean, causing knock. You can't get a good tune like this.

Basically, it sounds like you've got multiple things going on so it's best to take a "process of elimination" approach. Race gas is the easiest way to determine if you've really got knock. Like kraka said above, that's a lotta knock you're showing if it's real. Typically, people who report knock at part or low throttle as you have mentioned are experiencing phantom knock. If it's caused by your lifters, replacing those will do the trick. Also, if you haven't done so yet, make sure your knock sensor is neither too lose nor overly tight like kraka suggested.

 

[DanThMan1983]

OK, good deal on the logger settings.

It's not necessarily that the boost leaks are causing your particular knock readings. Boost leaks usually cause you to run rich (there is such a thing as rich knock & you could search to find info on that). The MAF says "I see x amount of air coming in." It sends the signal to the ECU & the ECU says "For x amount of air I want y amount of fuel" & opens the injectors accordingly. But, if after the MAF reads x amount of air, a bunch of it is lost due to leaks in the system, you now have too much fuel in the chamber. If the opposite happens & more air is sucked in than the MAF accounted for, you have not enough fuel in the chamber & run lean, causing knock. You can't get a good tune like this.

Basically, it sounds like you've got multiple things going on so it's best to take a "process of elimination" approach. Race gas is the easiest way to determine if you've really got knock. Like kraka said above, that's a lotta knock you're showing if it's real. Typically, people who report knock at part or low throttle as you have mentioned are experiencing phantom knock. If it's caused by your lifters, replacing those will do the trick. Also, if you haven't done so yet, make sure your knock sensor is neither too lose nor overly tight like kraka suggested.

Alright thanks kraka and gromit for the info. Ill get a tank and do a proper boost leak test. I already tried changing my oil and used 4 quarts mobil 1 5w30 synthetic and 1 bottle lucas oil stabalizer with no luck on getting rid of the lifter tick. I will have to wait a couple pay periods and get the revised lifters. Also need to check the knock sensor still its just a beotch to get to. And lastly if no luck after the above I will try some race gas. thanks again guys. Just frustrating as hell, I spend 3k+ on engine and turbo and what not and then I run into all this.

 

[DanThMan1983]

Update. Couple things I found. Got an air tank and was able to do a proper boost leak test and found a leak right at the MBC. Fixed that. Found my knock sensor in the wrong hole! Yeah, thats what she said right? ha. My Gf stopped me after that so I was not able to go on a run and see if my knock went away, but do you guys think this could cause everything that was happening? If my knock still doesnt go away my last resort is the lifters and then race gas. Post up again if I get ahead anymore.