keydance codes

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

i have searched and not found what i was looking for. i have done the keydance code retreival and this is what i get, the normal 1 and then 2 to start, but then i get 1,1,5,5. my car is not legal right now so i don't want to chance taking to autozone. i have just completed a complete rebuild including new t-stat, radiator cap, and new front o2 sensor. i was going to buy a code reader but the one at kragen seems really cheap. (#3165) obdii type. the guy there also told me that sometimes the ecu has to be reset by the dealer. sounds like bs to me but i still have lots to learn. can somebody point me towards the light?? thanks...trust

 

[dr1665]

Keydance 101:

12 = power disconnected from ECu in past X starts. Basically means the start of codes.

55 = End of codes.

11 = just use this list from 2GNT

Hope this helps.

 

[Doug99RS]

That list on 2gnt is not complete. Code 11 is also for EGR Solenoid Circuit failure or Mis-fireadaptive numerator at limit. You could be talking about a simple matter of a bad egr solenoid or something a bit more drastic like a timing belt having jumped time.

As far as resetting the PCM, you can do that by removing the Fuse marked "MOTOR" in the Power distribution center next to the battery.

When you say you did a complete rebuild... what did you rebuild? Engine, head, trans, suspension?? If you did any engine work your problem could be your timing marks off by one tooth. Likewise it could be a cam sensor going bad or an egr solenoid being unplugged.

Need more info and I think you're not going to be able to better trouble shoot this until you get a specific failure code using a code reader.
Doug

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

first off, thanks for the help gents! secondly, as far as resetting the pcm, do you have to have the motor fuse out for a certain amount of time like the ecu? and what does this accomplish? is it just procedural after engine rebuild also? with the timing, i was under the assumption that if the timing was off the car would idle really bad. now when i reset the ecu the idle hunts a bit after the fans kick on but not until then. idle is at even 800 until the fans go on. also, there is a bit of blue smoke from the exhaust but i have heard that is normal after a block rebuild. after a test drive i have noticed a decrease in power. throttle response is a little slow. figured it would be better since i just installed the afx udp. but it doesn't hunt when the accelerator is pressed. i thought if the timing were off it would hunt real bad when accelerated. can it run "almost perfect" with a tooth off? as stated above, by "complete rebuild" i meant that basically everything except for the tranny, was rebuilt and/or replaced. which code reader should i get? within reasonable cost of course. the one i saw at kragen was 35 bucks but it said it excepted the talon and laser 1.8 & 2.0. isn't my car exactly the same? after i turn the car off, the ecu whines for a minute, clicks and then there's nothing. is that a clue for something? i never heard that before. as always, any help is greatly appreciated!!

 

[Doug99RS]

You should leave the fuse out for a couple of minutes. This will allow any capacitors in the computer to discharge and the computer to be reset. This is going to be similar to resetting the computer with a scan tool.

After removing the timing belt or doing a rebuild the service manual says that the cam and crank positions should be relearned. Relearning is a process that can only be done with the dealerships scan tool. BUT honestly, I've pulled heads, timing belts and other repairs and never relearned them so I wouldn't worry about that.

The engine will hunt for target idle after resetting the computer. This is normal because you just wiped out all of it's memory. It used to know what position the idle air control motor was in when the car was shut off, cranked up, and when running. Now it has to relearn everything include fine tuning the a/f ratio for your specific engine as well as where the idle motor should be at to maintain target idle.

The engine should never hunt when at an OFF idle position. You've got your foot on the accelerator and so there's really no way the small amount of air that goes through the idle air control path would be enough for you to feel a difference. Doing a wide open or high percentage part throttle pull will cause the idle air control motor to open up that air passage all the way. What this will do is prevent total air starvation once you let completely off the gas. If it did not open up all the way the engine would fall flat on it's face.

I would not worry about any kind of smoke out of the exhaust just yet. Give it a couple of days/weeks. Anytime you go in to the engine, you're going to get oil and coolant (as in maybe one measuring cup split up in to all the cylinders, not alot really) in to the combustion chamber and it may take a bit of running to burn all of it out and clean up the combustion chamber.

I know on a 4g63 you can get the timing off by one tooth and it still run and appear normal. The car did not accelerate worth a damn though but at idle it "Seemed" normal. You can check this with a simple vacuum gauge. You should have 18-19 inches of vacuum. If it's much lower then you probably have a base timing concern. Which... with your check engine light condition that would be very possible.

The UDP should actually increase throttle response.

The code reader you mentioned checks 1.8 and 2.0L. They did not put the 1.8L's in the 2g's so that throws up all kinds of red flags to me. Are you sure that it is an OBDII code reader and not obdI? I've already been through the recomendations on the code readers before so you'll just have to hunt for the threads or emails and go from there.

The PCM will make some noises when you shut off the car. Basically al the computers in the car "go to sleep" after a couple of minutes. Most of them are not too noisy but mine will make a high pitch whine and then a click or two and it's nighty nighty for it. I wouldn't stress that too much unless it quits making noise AND fails to start for ya.
Doug

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

the code reader i looked at was for chrysler, dodge, and jeep. it also had a year window on it. something like 84-97 (don't remember exactly) but i am certain it was obd11. it looked really generic though and coupled with the "except lasor & talon" is why i didn't buy it. i will find for a better one anyway. this weekend i'll get the sensors and replace them. i can get all of them from m&s (recyclers) for nice and cheap and i'll post the results and/or further issues. just for clarification though, i should get the cam sensor, crank sensor, and egr solenoid. anything i missed? is there a way to test these individually before i buy them? thanks for the straight info doug! you've helped me many times before, hopefully very soon i'll be running good and i can leave you alone for a while! thanks again!! trust

 

[Doug99RS]

I don't recall having said that you should get any of those sensors. I really think that they would not ALL have gotten wiped out all at once. If they worked BEFORE the engine work then MOST if not all of them should work AFTER the engine work. The probability that it's actually something to do with the timing marks is VERY significant. I would not spend any money on a code reader or all of those sensors until you know what the car actually needs. A tow bill to a repair shop OR Autozone will be ALOT cheaper than all of those sensors, a good scan tool, or both.

The chances that your scan tool you are looking at actually working for what you need sounds kinda slim. There's alot of missing pieces to the puzzle and even some pieces that don't go in it all together. OBDII didn't come out until 95 and it wasn't an Emissions requirement until 96. So the chances that a cheap (interpret that as "affordable") code retriever will encompas all the way from 84 (pre-OBD???) all the way in to the second generation of OBD is pretty slim. We have code readers that are OBDII AND has disks of sorts that allow us to go back to 87-88 range. But the scanner alone is over $3,000.00 and that doesn't include the cables that cover that year span, nor the disks.

There are ways to test those sensors but the process is very involved and at no point do we start those tests UNLESS we have a specific failure code and can verify things like base timing, fuel and fire.
Doug

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

i admit i did leave out some pieces of this puzzle. actually the cel was on before my rebuild. i hadn't told you that. i assumed that it was an o2 sensor because when it came on i did the normal "pull over & inspect with a fine toothed comb" but found nothing. engine temps never changed, there were no leaks, no noises, and i had been told that running octane boosters can damage the sensors as well. (which i had been doing quite frequently) the timing belt broke a month later and i've been doing the build ever since. i honestly thought that i would be done with the addition of a new sensor. obviously that is not the case. live & learn, ya know. i will check the timing before i buy anything of course, and i can get those sensors for real cheap. ( used from m&s recyclers ) i figure i can try that first and if it works great and if it doesn't then i'll take it to the dealer when i get my ball joint recall done. the problem has to be one of the sensors or the timing like you said. everything else is new. as far as that code reader, i'll go take another look at it this weekend. it was only 35 bucks so i knew right off the bat it probably wouldn't be able to do what i wanted but it did say it was for chrysler & dodge vehicles. i am almost be certain it was from the late 80's too. my first thought was "hey, this thing covers alot of years" like i said though, it just looked cheap. i'll let you know what it was. laterzzz...trust

 

[Doug99RS]

So were you just going to start replacing sensors one by one until the light went off or were you going to have the codes retrieved and at least replace the sensor that was remotely related to the code?

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

yeah, i bought the sensors and swapped them. didn't clear it but it does run better. throttle response is deffinitely alot better! still got the light though. (?) i will take it to the dealer next week when i get the recall done. i can take the sensors back. i did take another look at the code reader also, it's a #3165 made by innova: chrysler code reader system, for 83-97 chrysler, dodge, & plymouth pass. cars. but it says "excludes lasor/talon 1.8 & 2.0 models & 1990 monaco/premier models." you plug it into the lighter and it retrieves the codes for you. just seems cheap to me, i would think you would need to plug it into a connection in the engine compartment or under the dash, right? trust

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

holly sh!tballs batman!!! i just found out that i'm missing the electric egr transducer solenoid, completely. could that be giving my code?? my car was hit in the passengers front and fixed before i bought it. i have two electrical connections that are cut off. will i damage anything if keep driving or is this something i should get right away?? trust

 

[Doug99RS]

The egr solenoid is directly in the middle of the engine bay.
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100294
Go there and you'll see it.

Regardless, the EGR solenoid is not crucial to running AND it is one of the possibilities based on that code you gave us earlier. Just verify the location of it.

Also, you have a 95? If I'm wrong, just store this info in your head for general information. If it is a 95, there was a recall that came out that did away with an emissions component. The recall is here:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72074

Make sure the connector you're looking at is not one of these that is supposed to be left undone.
D

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

the piece i am refering to is located right by the purge valve. i have a white rectangle connection with two black wires comming out of it (snipped) and there is a small vacuum hose coming off the purge valve that's connected to nothing. also i have a two prong connection that is by the power steering canister. it's the male end with the blue dust cover, also connected to nothing. ( ?? ) that's the piece that was removed by the recall, right?? trust

 

[Doug99RS]

Go to the engine bay tutorial that I have posted above. Is it item 16 A and B? Or is it a different connector?

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

nah, it's not those. the white connection that is snipped off is right by the purge solenoid (#50) with two black wires coming out, it's rectangular. and my purge solenoid has one vacuum line that runs off the top and is not connected to anything. i wish i had a digicam to show you. the line is attached to the top of the purge solenoid but the other end is just open to atmosphere. and the two prong connector is right behind the passenger headlight, right next to the power steering canister, where you pull out the blinker lights out from. it's got a blue dust cover on it. it looks just like the one that attaches to the egr solenoid. anyway, hope that helps, this thing is really getting on my nerves. thanks for all the guidance...trust

 

[Doug99RS]

On some of the earlier year models they tucked an evaporative emissions component under the right front corner. But It wasn't until 96 I beleive that they started using it. I've got a picture of it but it's really tight quarters and even then it sounds like your's is completely gone and seeing one won't really help you much. here it is regardless.

 

[Doug99RS]

I've got one laying around at work. I'll bring it home tonight and take a better picture of it.

 

[TRUSTEDONE2003]

i took my car to the dealer and they told me the ecu was bad, so i got another one from the graveyards. i put it in and immediately through a code 36 (on a 95nt). i looked that up as an obsolete code for the recall from 96 of the pulsed secondary air injection. (??) so, is this something that just has to be cleared with the scan tool? did i get an ecu from a car that never got the recall? any help would be great....trust

 

[Doug99RS]

The code that is being set will NOT go away by clearing out the codes. Part of the recall called for the software in the computer to be selectively erased and reprogrammed. The new software no longer looks for the secondary air components. This replacement PCM will need to be reprogrammed as well or else you will always have this CEL condition.

Note however, because the recall was performed once before on your vehicle and you have replaced the computer with one from a salvage yard, you will be responsible for paying to have the computer "flashed" with the software needed. If you had bought the computer from the dealer then they would have been responsible. But, it's nothing expensive. Expect maybe a $35-75 charge if you.
Doug