just bought 400awhp talon on SAFC, had to rebuild bottmend, what should i time it 2??

[sepulchral]

Got the car, day later the crank broke, rebuilt it, now gotta just time it.

#2 Comp Cams
.70a/r 62-1, .58a/r P trim Turbo
MAF Translator - blow through with LT1 MAF
RC 1000cc (96lb) injectors
Apex'i S-AFC


its go tan safc and its at top dead center timing right now.. what should i time it to? im guessing you'd have to retard the timing alot?


4g64 crank as well

 

[weith1111]

I have no idea what you are asking. What should your base AFC settings be? What should your base ignition timing setting be?

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58403
and
5* BTDC

 

[boostedinaz]

Got the car, day later the crank broke, rebuilt it, now gotta just time it.

#2 Comp Cams
.70a/r 62-1, .58a/r P trim Turbo
MAF Translator - blow through with LT1 MAF
RC 1000cc (96lb) injectors
Apex'i S-AFC


its go tan safc and its at top dead center timing right now.. what should i time it to? im guessing you'd have to retard the timing alot?


4g64 crank as well

Your post makes no sense at all, so your not going to get much help.

The things I can tell you right off the bat is that no matter what you do this car will run like shit. There is no way in hell that an AFC will be able to compensate for 1000CC injectors. Anything over 650's is going to be hard to control. Even with a MAFT and an AFC you are going to have to correct so much that your timming will be crazy. If you want to run those injectors you will need DSMlink or some sort of stand alone.

 

[weith1111]

There is no way in hell that an AFC will be able to compensate for 1000CC injectors.

Good point. How was this thing running before?

"day later the crank broke" is a serious problem on it's own. You have a SERIOUS issue if the crank BROKE. If a bearing was fried or something ok, but it BROKE THE CRANK?

Something about newbie, crank breaking day after you get it, having 1000cc injectors with no way to tune, that doesn't add up here...

Please update your profile as well.

 

[sepulchral]

it ran great before idled at 1k rpms, no detonation, and believe it atleast 24mpg.. dynoed at 500awhp at 25psi, dailyed at 17psi for half a year by previous owner, the crank broke ### 4g64 cranks are brittle and week at where the flywheel is, also the high pressure of the PP caused it to give out as well... it split where the oil passage was at the end of the crank. bearings were fine...

im a newbie at dsms and do plan on getting aem ems or dsm link, i think people who say an safc cannot support 1000cc injectors are misinformed, they can, its just not an accurate tune, and probably not recommended, thats why im goin the better route.. until then the safc will work ok like it has been doing..

oh yeah, and thanks alot for the help....

im guessing i should go with 5 degrees btdc right?

 

[dsmsucks]

I call bs on the 400awhp talon. The car is runing a SAFC with 1000cc injectors
I need to see a video or dyno sheet.

 

[weith1111]

i think people who say an safc cannot support 1000cc injectors are misinformed, they can, its just not an accurate tune, and probably not recommended, thats why im goin the better route.. until then the safc will work ok like it has been doing..

im guessing i should go with 5 degrees btdc right?

The airflow would be so out of whack. You'd have to have the AFC set at around -55. Idleing would be near impossible and you'd be dumping so much fuel you'd be lucky to get 10 mpg. I'd be curious as to what injectors you actually have in there. What are your AFC settings?

And yes, 5*BTDC.

 

[sepulchral]

well they are 96 pound rc injectors seriously man.. the guy who had this before me tuned nissans and toyotas and crap.. i was big into rwd sr20's and so forth i made the trip from midlothian virginia to montgomerey west virginia 320miles on a tank and a eighth of gas

 

[Sohc_mshue]

Guys he is telling the truth. The car ran fantastic with that fuel setup. I couldn't believe it myself because i know how bad the afc with 1000cc injectors will jack the timing maps up, but i saw it with my own two eyes. The car idled great and drove great. I even threw the wideband on it to check and the afrs crusing around and everything were on point completely. In boost it was somewhat rich in high boost like high 10:1 afr, but that isn't all that bad. The thing i dont understand is how the guy who tuned it was correcting the ignition timing. If there was no correction it would have blown the pistons sky high with the timing recurve from the afc. What do you dsm guys usually do when tuning afcs with bigger injectors? Is there a better way to retard the timing than just retarding the base ignition timing and making it run all slugish at part throttle? BTW here is a pic of his car and the dyno sheet on high boost. It breaks up in the high rpms supposedely because the ignition wasnt able to withstand that much power.

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[boostedinaz]

Guys he is telling the truth. The car ran fantastic with that fuel setup. I couldn't believe it myself because i know how bad the afc with 1000cc injectors will jack the timing maps up, but i saw it with my own two eyes. The car idled great and drove great. I even threw the wideband on it to check and the afrs crusing around and everything were on point completely. In boost it was somewhat rich in high boost like high 10:1 afr, but that isn't all that bad. The thing i dont understand is how the guy who tuned it was correcting the ignition timing. If there was no correction it would have blown the pistons sky high with the timing recurve from the afc. What do you dsm guys usually do when tuning afcs with bigger injectors? Is there a better way to retard the timing than just retarding the base ignition timing and making it run all slugish at part throttle? BTW here is a pic of his car and the dyno sheet on high boost. It breaks up in the high rpms supposedely because the ignition wasnt able to withstand that much power.

Guys with big injectors don't run AFC's becasue they can't. They run either DSMLink or some other stand alone like I have mentioned before. I think he should get DSMlink becasue if he is knew to all this EMS will be very hard to tune with. Something isnt right here but I doubt anyone will own up. I think it is great that the guy that bought it tunned all kinds of things but we are all telling you what we KNOW, not what we have been guessing and trying to pass along.

 

[Sohc_mshue]

Believe me I tune a lot of turbo hondas mostly using chipped ecus with epproms and i know how the afc works with things. I didn't believe it at all that it would run on those injectors...unless the dude lied about the size of the injectors, but that would be strange. My friend just emailed him and asked how he was taking care of the timing advance and the guy said he left the timing at stock and just let the knock sensor take care of it. Is this what people usually do?

 

[sepulchral]

the guy who owened the car before me told me this..

The ecu takes care of timing retard when knock is present. The dsm handles
timing differently than Nissan, Toyota, etc ecu's do in that it has a target
timing it goes for but will continue to advance timing beyond that until it
sees knock. Use the logger that came with the car.


what do u guys think

 

[olmytsi]

What kind of intake manifold is that?
Seems like this guy was out to build an out of the ordinary dsm....turbo flipped, manifold fed from the top, 1000cc injectors on an afc

 

[boostedinaz]

Is this what people usually do?

Only those that are training for the fastest motor replacement times.

the guy who owened the car before me told me this..

The ecu takes care of timing retard when knock is present. The dsm handles
timing differently than Nissan, Toyota, etc ecu's do in that it has a target
timing it goes for but will continue to advance timing beyond that until it
sees knock. Use the logger that came with the car.


what do u guys think

So he is letting it advance crazy timming and HOPING that the ECU will retard it enough to not blow up. Thjs half ass way of doing things is what gives DSM's a bad name when it comes to reliability and probably why your crank took a shit.



Again, you CAN NOT run anything over 750's with an AFC and even that is pushing it.

 

[DragSourceTsi]

The only way you could get the timing in line with an AFC and 1000 cc injectors would be to take out quite a bit of base timing. Even then eww get dsmlink and get it now!

 

[Sohc_mshue]

Yea i said the same thing. I bet that thing was knocking its ass off. I would think the pistons would go before the crank though... i bet the base timing needs retarded at least 10* to make that work. The car really did drive fine though and i didnt hear knock, but then again you cant hear shit over that car and we didn't have the program on the palm pilot to log knock. We should have pulled the plugs...thats how i look for knock on hondas.

 

[Scott_S]

That is the weirdest setup I've ever seen, no way it could run that good on 1000cc injectors and an afc

 

[Sohc_mshue]

like i said unless its got the wrong injector size, but i swear i checked the afr's and they werent bad. mid 14's at idle, 14-13:1 cruising. 10.5-11.5:1 in boost.

 

[olmytsi]

Maybe the owner had both the maft and afc leaned out?
What are your afc settings? Even if the battery has been out, the settings stay saved.
What are the settings on the maft?

 

[RedTurboEclipse]

that is a very weird setup.

 

[DragSourceTsi]

Maybe the owner had both the maft and afc leaned out?
What are your afc settings? Even if the battery has been out, the settings stay saved.
What are the settings on the maft?

That has to be the case. IF they are 1000cc. No way an AFC could take that. AEM EMS requires and injector driver just to run 1600cc. The amount of time they are open at idle is so short it's very very hard to control.

 

[Sohc_mshue]

I'm almost positive they were using the MAFT to lean it out even more as well. I doubt the stock talon ecu needs any kind of additional driver to drive 1000cc's though. Chipped stock honda ecu's can even handle 1000cc injectors just fine.

 

[boostedinaz]

Again, if you are using an AFC and/or a MAFT to compensate for 1000cc injectors your timing advance WILL be out of control. Both of those devices lie to the ECU about the airflow it sees. When it does that the ECU will add timing. In order to lean out enough for those injectors your timing is out of control.

No matter how you want to spin this the car is a hack job and needs to be fixed CORRECTLY.

 

[Sohc_mshue]

yes yes i know this. Thats why i brought up the question of timing over and over again to him. I dont know how the thing wasnt grenading itself before this. I'm sure one count of knock with that much timing could easily have blew the ringlands to pieces. The knock sensor wouldnt have helped much in that case.

 

[Sohc_mshue]

We finally got the palm datalogger hooked up and it showed 43 counts of knock with the stock timing setting setup like the original owner told him! We retarded it a bunch and after that only got 0-5 counts of knock, but the car runs like such shit now out of boost. Its really time for another form of managment.