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Intercoolerless with h2O/Meth

Posted by joat09, Mar 6, 2011

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  1. joat09

    joat09 Proven Member

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    Galesburg, Illinois
    I'm saying using e85 and meth for the reason wont have any gains over eachother. So choose one or the other. I know they both will react differently but e85 is not part of the topic.

    Why would I need 30gph of water to do the same as the stock smic? I'm not looking to go all the way with this right now. Where do you inject this 30gph of meth, and do you use it as your dd?

    The water being injected will be vaporized, and in the combustion chamber it's over 800*F. The stock intake runner is not made for liquids. The meth will cause uneven temperature in the cylinders.

    I'm thinking now I want to spray meth pre-turbo and spray water post between the bov and tb.
     

    382  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    16.540 @ 87.150 · 2G DSM
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  2. SHaman

    SHaman Proven Member

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    Frankfort, Asia
    Liquid, as long as there is no intercooler in the mix, then there needs to be some meth. Whatever the book says, my IM is proportionally cooler to the amount of methanol in the mix. I don't inject that far from the IM, about 2 inches before the TB because of the TMIC i have. Without an IC and the associated pipe, you won't have feet to cool down the air. For max power, yes, I think people will find that if they build the car right, ie more than enough spark that water will win out. See this thread

    RICESP Water Injected RX7 - Page 15 - waterinjection.info

    But most people may not be willing to tune beyond safe where water shines.
     
  3. joat09

    joat09 Proven Member

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    What do you mean by IM?
     

    382  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    16.540 @ 87.150 · 2G DSM
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  4. SHaman

    SHaman Proven Member

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    Frankfort, Asia
    Intake manifold
     
  5. joat09

    joat09 Proven Member

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    Oh wow, should have just thought about it. Are you still in Japan?
     

    382  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    16.540 @ 87.150 · 2G DSM
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  6. Devilsown

    Devilsown Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 4, 2006
    Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
    Many people do run methanol injection with E85 just to help clean all the buildup they get on E. Meth injection can not fix the hard starting issues that E cars have in the winter. Thats one of the main reasons people swtich back to meth injection from E85.

    Is there power from running meth injection when still on E. Yes. The in cylinder "steam engine" and then the cooling thats created in the intake pipe. The E does all the in cylinder cooling that the meth previous did.

    Yes i believe shamon is still in japan. He is not to far from all the action.
     
  7. SHaman

    SHaman Proven Member

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    Less than one prefecture (state) south. Devil's Own, check your facebook messages.
     
  8. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    Bloxom, Virginia
    I've run all water and water mix and all meth with pump ethanol and no other charge cooler. I ran different nozzle sizes and tried to atomize the water as much as I could. My IAT always saw much much lower numbers with pure meth. Neither knocked. But it was just plain scary to me to see +25psi with no intercooler and just pure water injection. The water may raise the effective octane in the chamber up to about 118, but ethanol is as knock resistant as 118 gasoline IMO anyhow. So all the benefit is really from charge cooling. And meth does that best.

    One thing to note is that, with the typical nozzles out on the market, typical water injection pump pressures do not operate even remotely close to the pressure required to atomize water enough to extract more heat out of the air vs. meth.
     

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    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 1G DSM
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  9. SHaman

    SHaman Proven Member

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    Frankfort, Asia
    DSM, I think that running some methanol with the water would help reduce the surface tension of the water and make it distribute better. Aquamist had a graph showing the surface tension of water in relation to the added methanol.
     
  10. Car Cannibal

    Car Cannibal Proven Member

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    Chicago, Illinois
    Joat09, when you ditch the IC the charge temps get out of control and you need to drop them massively. Say you run 20psi on a 80degree day, you're at least 250 degrees. Try it out here to see
    Stealth 316 - Turbo Outlet Temperature

    Now if you don't drop these temps to at least IC levels you'll have to run less psi than before and that makes ditching the IC pointless. So you can run water and with the current pump/nozzles get it pretty low, (not to FMIC levels) or run 100% Meth, run more nozzle and get it lower. Isn't this the point of the thread?

    That's as simple as I can make it, it doesn't matter if it's a daily driver either since you buy 5 gallon Meth containers and run 2-4 quart bottles.

    The FMIC can be a deleted expense, weight and cooling obstacle if you run Alky Injection properly on gas. It will also extend the range of your fuel pump and IDC saving you even more $$ and create the environment to make even more power on the same setup, Water can't say this.
     
  11. dsm-onster

    dsm-onster DSM Wiseman

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    Bloxom, Virginia
    hmm, I was under the impression that water is water and acts like water no matter what is in the mist with it. Once the water/meth exits the nozzle the meth separates finer because of it's low level of attraction to itself. While the water, once the meth suspends earlier, goes back to being itself.

    Surfactants I thought only work when mixed and staying mixed with water. . . How did they come up with the data for that chart? Do you have a link to that chart?
     

    2K  0

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 1G DSM
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  12. joat09

    joat09 Proven Member

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    Galesburg, Illinois
    All I'm looking to do is replace the smic with H2O solely.
     

    382  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    16.540 @ 87.150 · 2G DSM
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  13. turboglenn

    turboglenn Proven Member

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    RIpley, West Virginia
    From my experiences and tests with this same thing (it's my thread that was linked in the first few posts of this thread) I would say that ditching the stock SMIC in favor of alky injection is completely feasible, I saw great low charge temps when the meth was flowing under boost, and although i saw higher AIT temps under normal cruise condition they actually atributed to a better behaving daily driver under those conditions. All my data in that thread is taken from logs that came from my haltech e6x engine management (which i can't recall all of it from the top of my head, but i'm actually having trouble remembering why i went back to running the FMIC again :LOL: )
     
  14. joat09

    joat09 Proven Member

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    Anything on using straight water? Or am i digging myself a hole?
     

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    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    16.540 @ 87.150 · 2G DSM
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  15. kidtsi

    kidtsi Proven Member

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    Laredo, Texas
    E85 and water would contaminate itself. im running e85 and 100% meth right now but i still have a FMIC.
     

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    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    11.426 @ 131.620 · 2G DSM
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  16. joat09

    joat09 Proven Member

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    I'm not planning on mixing water and petro.
     

    382  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    16.540 @ 87.150 · 2G DSM
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  17. ulitka

    ulitka Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 9, 2009
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    I would like to share my experience with intercoolers setup on e90 gas with Snow Performance Stage3 progressive water injection.

    Setup:
    * Turbo 68HTA with external wastegate off O2 max boost 30psi. Hot side fully ported.
    * FP exhaust manifold
    * FP intake pipe recirculated Tial BOV
    * #1 nozzle (60ml/min) pre-turbo
    * #6 nozzle (625ml/min) post-turbo mounted about 2" away from compressor cover flange
    * 7 bolt built engine with stock cams, stock intake manifold, stock ported throttle body
    * speed density setup with IAT mounted to TB elbow very close to TB flange.
    * Snow Performance Stage3 water injection. Starts injecting at 18psi or 20% injector duty cycle, full injection at 30psi or 55% injector duty cycle (FIC 2150cc injectors).
    Note: previous setup had a 4" FMIC with 3" cold side piping to a 3" boomba TB, to JMF drag intake manifold.

    Observation:
    1. Zero turbo lag between shifts
    2. Spool up is about the same when doing WOT from 2K rpm to red line
    3. IAT during WOT didn't go above 190deg F. Less water injection or smaller nozzles caused IAT go up to 250deg F.
    4. I tried injecting window washer fluid and did not see any differences in IAT or performance.
    5. with FMIC car felt stronger/faster. Ecmlink logs showed that with water injection WOT 2nd and 3rd gear pulls had about the same time compared to pulls with FMIC.
    6. Water injection killed my ICS motor within two month of usage. It was a black ICS newer motor about 3 years old with less than 7K miles on it. When I disassembled the ICS, it was all corroded on the inside, bearings were seized, one of the coils read 12ohms.#

    I installed a stock style ICS and experimented with lesser water injection and smaller nozzles to see if water stops entering ICS. After many configurations water still entered the ICS. I had to dry water out from ICS with hair drier and lubricate bearings after each water injection use.

    Conclusion:
    I would not run intercoolerless setup with water injection because I do not want to clean ICS motor after each use of water injection.#

    It appears that water does not have enough time to vaporize due to short piping between turbo and TB. With some sort of intercooler water might have had a chance to vaporize and no water would accumulate in ICS.

    I would not run per-turbo water injection because it erodes the compressor inducer outer blades within short period of time.

    I am in process of installing a new super short route 3" FMIC by ETS. I am planning on experimenting with water injection to see if water still gets into TB and by how much I can drop the IAT beyond ambient temperature.
     

    871  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    16.665 @ 93.120 · 2G DSM
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  18. joat09

    joat09 Proven Member

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    Excellent, thank you!
     

    382  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    16.540 @ 87.150 · 2G DSM
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