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Intercoolerless with h2O/Meth

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Liquidx, you realize this thread says INTERCOOLERLESS right?

LiQUiDx says
"Using methanol is pointless as E85 has a high detonation threshold and the methanol won't do much of anything".

My canceling out point made from your statement above.

joat09 says
"Running e85 and meth for a dd wouldn't have any gains".

Both of the above are from lack of experience and use of both products or familiarity with those in the Racing World. Good luck with Water. Tell us how much psi you can run Max and how much injector pulsewidth goes up.

Liquidx, you're exactly the guy that's scary to me, you use books as racing facts and end all but without real world accounts to back them up. The Grand National crowd pioneered mass use of Injection Systems, go over there and see how many run water and their vendors sell Water Injection kits = NONE. There are hundreds of GN examples and some have Logging data to prove water is for drinking and feeding your plants. Wanna run just a little water, fine, wanna run as much psi as possible and gain a fueling effect, Meth.

So in theory, Water does take out more heat so it's better. Ok real world that....

Run 30gph of Water and tell me in theory what will happen to your engine?
Books say it will take out so much heat that your MAT temps will be blah blah.

Now tell what REALLY happens when you run 30gph of water through your DO 225psi pump? DEAD ASS BOG!!! How much you cooling now, how much power you making now?

Run 30gph of Methanol and tell me what will happen?
Books say it has less heat extraction, it won't take out as much because it needs a surface to cool vs water. Holy SH**, that's bench racing at it's finest. :barf:

Lesson today, it's hard to cool and perform better when you're engine is bogging, so because you can keep injecting Methanol vs Water, METHANOL will always win out. For those of us who want to actually make max power, add fueling and run with lower MAT temps, we'll keep injecting mass amounts of Methanol.

But Methanol is just pointless with E85 and no intercooler. :notgood::rolleyes:

BTW, over 30gh of Methanol here, running cold and ACTUALLY RUNNING. Like I said, I'm actually doing with the OP is asking.

I'm saying using e85 and meth for the reason wont have any gains over eachother. So choose one or the other. I know they both will react differently but e85 is not part of the topic.

Why would I need 30gph of water to do the same as the stock smic? I'm not looking to go all the way with this right now. Where do you inject this 30gph of meth, and do you use it as your dd?

The water being injected will be vaporized, and in the combustion chamber it's over 800*F. The stock intake runner is not made for liquids. The meth will cause uneven temperature in the cylinders.

I'm thinking now I want to spray meth pre-turbo and spray water post between the bov and tb.
 
Liquid, as long as there is no intercooler in the mix, then there needs to be some meth. Whatever the book says, my IM is proportionally cooler to the amount of methanol in the mix. I don't inject that far from the IM, about 2 inches before the TB because of the TMIC i have. Without an IC and the associated pipe, you won't have feet to cool down the air. For max power, yes, I think people will find that if they build the car right, ie more than enough spark that water will win out. See this thread

RICESP Water Injected RX7 - Page 15 - waterinjection.info

But most people may not be willing to tune beyond safe where water shines.
 
Liquid, as long as there is no intercooler in the mix, then there needs to be some meth. Whatever the book says, my IM is proportionally cooler to the amount of methanol in the mix. I don't inject that far from the IM, about 2 inches before the TB because of the TMIC i have. Without an IC and the associated pipe, you won't have feet to cool down the air. For max power, yes, I think people will find that if they build the car right, ie more than enough spark that water will win out. See this thread

RICESP Water Injected RX7 - Page 15 - waterinjection.info

But most people may not be willing to tune beyond safe where water shines.

What do you mean by IM?
 
Many people do run methanol injection with E85 just to help clean all the buildup they get on E. Meth injection can not fix the hard starting issues that E cars have in the winter. Thats one of the main reasons people swtich back to meth injection from E85.

Is there power from running meth injection when still on E. Yes. The in cylinder "steam engine" and then the cooling thats created in the intake pipe. The E does all the in cylinder cooling that the meth previous did.

Yes i believe shamon is still in japan. He is not to far from all the action.
 
Less than one prefecture (state) south. Devil's Own, check your facebook messages.
 
I've run all water and water mix and all meth with pump ethanol and no other charge cooler. I ran different nozzle sizes and tried to atomize the water as much as I could. My IAT always saw much much lower numbers with pure meth. Neither knocked. But it was just plain scary to me to see +25psi with no intercooler and just pure water injection. The water may raise the effective octane in the chamber up to about 118, but ethanol is as knock resistant as 118 gasoline IMO anyhow. So all the benefit is really from charge cooling. And meth does that best.

One thing to note is that, with the typical nozzles out on the market, typical water injection pump pressures do not operate even remotely close to the pressure required to atomize water enough to extract more heat out of the air vs. meth.
 
DSM, I think that running some methanol with the water would help reduce the surface tension of the water and make it distribute better. Aquamist had a graph showing the surface tension of water in relation to the added methanol.
 
Joat09, when you ditch the IC the charge temps get out of control and you need to drop them massively. Say you run 20psi on a 80degree day, you're at least 250 degrees. Try it out here to see
Stealth 316 - Turbo Outlet Temperature

Now if you don't drop these temps to at least IC levels you'll have to run less psi than before and that makes ditching the IC pointless. So you can run water and with the current pump/nozzles get it pretty low, (not to FMIC levels) or run 100% Meth, run more nozzle and get it lower. Isn't this the point of the thread?

That's as simple as I can make it, it doesn't matter if it's a daily driver either since you buy 5 gallon Meth containers and run 2-4 quart bottles.

The FMIC can be a deleted expense, weight and cooling obstacle if you run Alky Injection properly on gas. It will also extend the range of your fuel pump and IDC saving you even more $$ and create the environment to make even more power on the same setup, Water can't say this.
 
DSM, I think that running some methanol with the water would help reduce the surface tension of the water and make it distribute better. Aquamist had a graph showing the surface tension of water in relation to the added methanol.

hmm, I was under the impression that water is water and acts like water no matter what is in the mist with it. Once the water/meth exits the nozzle the meth separates finer because of it's low level of attraction to itself. While the water, once the meth suspends earlier, goes back to being itself.

Surfactants I thought only work when mixed and staying mixed with water. . . How did they come up with the data for that chart? Do you have a link to that chart?
 
All I'm looking to do is replace the smic with H2O solely.

From my experiences and tests with this same thing (it's my thread that was linked in the first few posts of this thread) I would say that ditching the stock SMIC in favor of alky injection is completely feasible, I saw great low charge temps when the meth was flowing under boost, and although i saw higher AIT temps under normal cruise condition they actually atributed to a better behaving daily driver under those conditions. All my data in that thread is taken from logs that came from my haltech e6x engine management (which i can't recall all of it from the top of my head, but i'm actually having trouble remembering why i went back to running the FMIC again :LOL: )
 
I would like to share my experience with intercoolers setup on e90 gas with Snow Performance Stage3 progressive water injection.

Setup:
* Turbo 68HTA with external wastegate off O2 max boost 30psi. Hot side fully ported.
* FP exhaust manifold
* FP intake pipe recirculated Tial BOV
* #1 nozzle (60ml/min) pre-turbo
* #6 nozzle (625ml/min) post-turbo mounted about 2" away from compressor cover flange
* 7 bolt built engine with stock cams, stock intake manifold, stock ported throttle body
* speed density setup with IAT mounted to TB elbow very close to TB flange.
* Snow Performance Stage3 water injection. Starts injecting at 18psi or 20% injector duty cycle, full injection at 30psi or 55% injector duty cycle (FIC 2150cc injectors).
Note: previous setup had a 4" FMIC with 3" cold side piping to a 3" boomba TB, to JMF drag intake manifold.

Observation:
1. Zero turbo lag between shifts
2. Spool up is about the same when doing WOT from 2K rpm to red line
3. IAT during WOT didn't go above 190deg F. Less water injection or smaller nozzles caused IAT go up to 250deg F.
4. I tried injecting window washer fluid and did not see any differences in IAT or performance.
5. with FMIC car felt stronger/faster. Ecmlink logs showed that with water injection WOT 2nd and 3rd gear pulls had about the same time compared to pulls with FMIC.
6. Water injection killed my ICS motor within two month of usage. It was a black ICS newer motor about 3 years old with less than 7K miles on it. When I disassembled the ICS, it was all corroded on the inside, bearings were seized, one of the coils read 12ohms.#

I installed a stock style ICS and experimented with lesser water injection and smaller nozzles to see if water stops entering ICS. After many configurations water still entered the ICS. I had to dry water out from ICS with hair drier and lubricate bearings after each water injection use.

Conclusion:
I would not run intercoolerless setup with water injection because I do not want to clean ICS motor after each use of water injection.#

It appears that water does not have enough time to vaporize due to short piping between turbo and TB. With some sort of intercooler water might have had a chance to vaporize and no water would accumulate in ICS.

I would not run per-turbo water injection because it erodes the compressor inducer outer blades within short period of time.

I am in process of installing a new super short route 3" FMIC by ETS. I am planning on experimenting with water injection to see if water still gets into TB and by how much I can drop the IAT beyond ambient temperature.
 
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