I'm Building a 1991 GSX

[Freerevving]

I pretty sure this has been covered before... I'm building a 1991 GSX
AND I would like some help from the members here. I don't think I absolutelyneed the help, as I'm an experienced shade-tree mechanic and tuner, but I'd like things to go smoother, quicker, and be more reliable-- especially since I'm new to building DSM's

I'm, so far, well-educated on what I need to get it together as I've been studying the car and the internet now, for about a month, before posting here. I should have a Haynes or the like by Sunday... but suprisingly the internet (and the Autozone website tech-book) has provided an amazing amount of information. So here's what I've got:

Base car: 1991 GS (clean title, no transmission)

Donor Car: 1992 GSX (no title, no engine, no ecu, no engine harness)

Extra parts: two non-turbo 4g63's. two GSX trannies. Ig turbo manifold, intake manifold, throttle body, side mount intercooler, stock internal wastegate turbo (no shaft play), bov, turbo coolant lines, boost controller and extra downpipe. I also have 1g turbo pistons and rings for the rebuild. I'm sure I'm forgetting something

ALL THE ABOVE CARS/PARTS were accquired for a total of $580

Things I need and don't have: 450cc injectors, Turbo MAF, Fed ECU, gasket set, bearing set, balance shaft elimination kit, oil lines (i think?)... no, I will not be running oil squirters until the 2nd engine's rebuild.

I have no idea where the turbo oil lines go, or weather I need to tap the oil pan. I would also like to run 8.5:1 compression... can this be accomplished by shaving the head? by how much (if there is clearance)?

I would love to get suggestions, opinions, and advice.

I also have the option of running the 92 front end... Need opinions on this also, because I'm split...

Thanks in advance, Mac

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

^^^ Im sure that breaks some type of law. Im 99% sure that its against the law to tamper with a VIN. But whose going to stop you?

James

 

[mygsx2120]

^^^ Im sure that breaks some type of law. Im 99% sure that its against the law to tamper with a VIN. But whose going to stop you?

James

It's definately illegal, but I don't think there is any way he would get caught. It's not like he has a skyline and is trying to title it as a 240. To me it's a victimless crime, like downloading songs or getting a BJ from a 17 year old.

 

[Shady1687]

especially since I'm new to building DSM's

that quote explains why this thread even exists.... hahahah wow i will beleave it when i see it. this guy hasnt even seen what a 1g awd looks like yet either. the only way i would ever even trying to do a fwd to awd swap is if i was doing it to a spyder. also he thinks he can do it for 580 bucks. haha like i said that quote explains it all.

 

[Freerevving]

that quote explains why this thread even exists.... hahahah wow i will beleave it when i see it. this guy hasnt even seen what a 1g awd looks like yet either. the only way i would ever even trying to do a fwd to awd swap is if i was doing it to a spyder. also he thinks he can do it for 580 bucks. haha like i said that quote explains it all.

Of course this thread exists because I'm new to DSM's... What are you a rocket scientist?

As far as 580 bucks... It's already been paid for... The only parts I'm missing will ad up to less than $300 (probably around 200) materials for grinding / welding under $100..Total estimated cost about $900 and 2 months of spare time. After the spare parts are sold, possibly FREE (anyone need an AWD tranny?). To get it fit and finished will cost more, but getting it completely operational should be within this estimate. YOU WOULDN'T believe how cheap I got two cars (one AWD shell), two engines, 2 AWD trannies, All the turbo parts, new pistons, and some other stuff. In my experience estimated costs end up being too low, but I'm trying to stay within it. I have plenty of expeience Building/ refurbishing cars... please don't think I some hopeful idiot WTF

ooh I forgot to factor in $200 for gaskets, pumps and bearings

 

[Black95awd]

Not unless you weld the center diff and run with no t case in FWD form...but who wants to do that.


Joe

or run a VCE there hoss!

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

It's definately illegal, but I don't think there is any way he would get caught. It's not like he has a skyline and is trying to title it as a 240. To me it's a victimless crime, like downloading songs or getting a BJ from a 17 year old.

I just Loled big time. Was not expecting those last few words. Damn thats great.

James

 

[Freerevving]

Maybe ohio shops are more expensive than ones in Texas.

Yes I can have a 16v head rebuilt (if I weren't doing it myself) for $80-90... Honing cylinders is $5 each (free for me) Boring is only $10 a cylinder... But you have to bring the parts disassembled... I might spend $50 tops having someone else do some machining... Yeah you're right rebuilding the engine was not factored in, but that's because It's not necessary, it's a 6 bolt with 110k. The only thing I did factor in on rebuild is the new turbo pistons and I'm converting the enine..

Bad news: about to pick up the new car and He wants $50 more to throw in the extra 4g63. I don't need it, but I might pick it up next weekend Just because of the deal.

As far as RRE ... IIRC, they've only done this to a 2G Have not found a link to anyone attempting this to a 1G

 

[mavisky]

I am fully aware that the suspension Is totally different... The main difference is the upper mounting point.

There are way more issues than that. The fwd suspension has two mounting points beside the fuel tank, and one on the passenger side for the panhard rod. That's it. The entire rear hatch floor is completely different. The fwd spare tires sat in a little cave so the rear hatch floor was smooth. The 1g awd's had a smooth floor that required the spare tire to be mounted on top of it creating a hump in the hatch. All this was changed to clear the rear suspension and diff.

I just got off the phone with an 1G AWD enthusiast, who has built close to 7 AWD's (not from a FWD) He claim that the upper suspenion mounting point will need to be ground off the old chassis and re-welded on the new chassis. And the center diff will need the same operation... AND all the unbolt-able parts (INCLUDING TANK) will need to be swapped over. EASY! (well for me)... He further stated that, other than that, the FWD and AWD bare shells are identical

I hate to break it to you, but this person is not only wrong, but they're flat out lying to you. I just feel sorry for you when you get it all torn out to find that we here on the site have been telling you the truth and this guy you've been talking to is the one lying to you.

ALL PARTS NEEDED ARE ON THE DONOR "SHELL" which is just missing the engine and I have one... again ALL THE PARTS I HAVE ARE INCLUDED IN MY SPENDING PRICE OF $580 cool huh?

please be optimistic about this

You need to decide if you want people to be overly optimistic or if you want us to be remotely realistic as our answers will be totally different.

Also did you sign anything when you bought that car? Because if the bank goes after the person who has a lien on the vehicle when they stop paying on it, he'll probably use that paperwork to send them your way. Watch your ass.

 

[My1GLaser]

After the spare parts are sold, possibly FREE (anyone need an AWD tranny?).

I'll take a free tranny. I want a spare that I can disassemble and build for when I break this one, so I can just do a quick swap.

Edit: Just went out and checked the FWD unibody frame where the front subframe bolts up. It has a completely different angle down to the bottom of the radiator support and there is nothing to bolt the AWD front subframe to. It just keeps getting worse. I am sure you can see that on the car that you got today, but I wanted to let you know that I checked my 94 GS & 90 Laser. I am sure you could start cutting apart unibody "frame" parts and welding them in place, but that seems like a sh_t ton of work.

 

[My1GLaser]

Yeah you're right rebuilding the engine was not factored in, but that's because It's not necessary, it's a 6 bolt with 110k. The only thing I did factor in on rebuild is the new turbo pistons and I'm converting the enine..

If you are going to swap pistons then check for cylinder taper. If there is any kind of ridge at the top of the cyl then there is probably a taper, but it could be minimal. I was just going to rering my pistons and while setting the end gap and found out mine was tapered. The end gap was .018 at 2" down the cylinder, but it was .035 at the top about 1/2" down. That would have leaked compression like a bi*** and caused all kinds of blowby. Damn I was pissed because it was supposed to be a simple rebuild, but the long journey of the over-the-top rebuild began. Oh well, $2500 later I have a forged bottom end, ACL bearings, MLS HG, ARP studs, 272s, +1mm OS ferrea valves, manley springs & retainers, ported head and no money. But she will be one hell of a beast if I ever get it to crank.

 

[mygsx2120]

So did you get the car today? Still plan on going for it?

 

[Freerevving]

Finally got home an hour ago...


I only now have both cars near each other... and it's dark out...Hmmm nobody mentioned the hatch floors being different... I'll check tomorrow,

I might be speaking too soon, but the whole rear suspension bracket looks easily removed with a grinder. No fabrication needed as far as I can tell... Modification and swapping, of course... but doesn't look like anything will need to be made from scratch.

It's now 2:30a over here so I can't really speak on this till tomorrow.

Man I got a lot of great parts.... AS FAR AS the AWD trannies go, I'll be selling one, keeping the other. What I meant was that my project should pay for itself after I sell some extras... yeah the wording was pretty effed up, sorry

I'm gonna go look at the hatch floors get back on this tomorrow

 

[Freerevving]

okay hatch floor pans are different that sucks... there might be a sawzall in my future, hopefully not. Just don't like the idea of having a hacked car. Makes me feel like the cars might be about to have identity crisis...

If I'm lucky that part of the car will be a seperate segment that can have the spot welds ground off, but like I said it's too dark.

get back on this tomorrow, maybe I'll have an idea

 

[Freerevving]

I hate to break it to you, but this person is not only wrong, but they're flat out lying to you. I just feel sorry for you when you get it all torn out to find that we here on the site have been telling you the truth and this guy you've been talking to is the one lying to you.



You need to decide if you want people to be overly optimistic or if you want us to be remotely realistic as our answers will be totally different.

Also did you sign anything when you bought that car? Because if the bank goes after the person who has a lien on the vehicle when they stop paying on it, he'll probably use that paperwork to send them your way. Watch your ass.

These statements are grossly exaggerated, cool your jets...

for the car + about $800 worth of other DSM parts, I paid $100. He just wanted this stuff out of his garage. He had three 1g's Projects and one 2.4L4g63 Galant repair in his driveway and garage when I got there.

I Never signed anything, and your logic is flawed... Proof Of him having money from selling the car wouldn't change the banks stance on the car. They loaned HIM money, with the title as collateral. I have the banks phone number, original owners number, addresses ... IF I want to mess with the title.
but three people have already tried... They even tried a mechanics lien.

Oh and who lied to me? weren't you the one who claimed that there was no channel for the drive shaft?

 

[mavisky]

Oh and who lied to me? weren't you the one who claimed that there was no channel for the drive shaft?

There isn't. Run a 3" exhaust through there and tell me how much room you've got left for the driveshaft. Also show me where the mounting points are for the driveshaft carrier bearings.

The floorpans won't just pop-out, you'll need the sawzall for sure. The fwd rear suspension comes off really easily, no questions there. Getting all of the awd's attachment points added to the subframe is the difficult part.

Oh and one more proble you're going to find here shortly. The fwd engine is supported by a single crossmember that runs from the front ofthe engine bay to behind the steering rack. It goes right down the middle and completely occupies the space that the transfer case will want to use. You my be able to remedy this by swapping over the entire front subframe from the awd, but I don't believe any of the attachment points are there. I really wish I had brought my Haynes manual in today to scan some of the images in, maybe I will later tonight.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

i got you covered.

So here, we have the fwd crossmember.

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Here, we have the awd crossmember.

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And lastly, what the crossmember and transfer case look like together.

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James

 

[mavisky]

Thanks but here's even better documentation, taken with my camera phone quickly so pardon the fuzziness if it shows.

Fwd front subframe - note location of center support under engine near exhaust

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AWD front subframe - Note subframe members 7 and 8 in place of the single member on the fwd and note their location in order to make room for the transfer case.

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Fwd rear suspension - Note simple design with two mounting points in front of the rear axle (just off screen) and one right near the muffler for the panhard rod.

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Awd rear suspension - Note fuel tank mounted under hatch and behind rear axle as opposed to in front of axle on fwd and vastly different rear suspension mounting points.

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Now who's the liar. I've been telling you the truth this whole time, you've just been hearing what you want to hear, and whoever it was on the phone was more than willing to tell you exactly that even though it was all wrong.

 

[Freerevving]

hey, I'm new to this car... please cut out your condescending remarks, they're aren't helpful.

If you have this thread on auto-notify please disregard the last reply, I need to measure a couple things before re-posting

I may be wrong with my statements and perfectly willing to admit it after I've seen for myself...

Just because I'm new here and there's a computer screen seperating us, it doesn't give anyone the right to speak to me as you would a delinquent child. I guess I expected a different attitude here.

 

[mygsx2120]

I only now have both cars near each other... and it's dark out...Hmmm nobody mentioned the hatch floors being different... I'll check tomorrow

Freerevving

The entire rear hatch floor is completely different

Mavisky

Mavisky has 5 stars by his name, that means trust his word like gospel. Or you could at least trying actually reading what he types.

 

[Freerevving]

Mavisky has 5 stars by his name, that means trust his word like gospel. Or you could at least trying actually reading what he types.

well, I do read everything and I was wrong.

Now who's the liar. I've been telling you the truth this whole time, you've just been hearing what you want to hear, and whoever it was on the phone was more than willing to tell you exactly that even though it was all wrong.

There isn't. Run a 3" exhaust through there and tell me how much room you've got left for the driveshaft. Also show me where the mounting points are for the driveshaft carrier bearings.

The tunnels ARE the same, exhaust hanger must be swapped with bearing carrier... both the pictures show it, and the cars I looked at today prove it... The 3" exhaust I got with the AWD hangs a little lower and to the driver side, THAT'S how it fits. Have you actually compared the two?

Also for the front, All I have to do is swap out the front subframes... I will check tomorrow to see if the mounting points are there... but the ends look to be the same position. Why would anyone gripe about the front subframe?? I have both of them in my yard

The rear shock mounts do not appear to be at a different positions, but I will measure tomorrow. If the rear frame rails rails are different, major paroblem... I would to look into more title options (reconstuction title?) even tomorrow I won't have time to measure... WHen I do, I'll get back on this

THE ONLY MAJOR THING TO BE MODIFIED that I know for sure (no "fabrication" as you like to use the word loosely) is to swap out the rear floor pans... except for the bearing carrier (drill and weld), everything is bolt and unbolt.

A friend of mine that welds is laughin at the fact that anyone is scared to drill out welds and swap floor pans.... EVeryday, this process is being used to restore old cars. I've personally helped do that very process to swap welded-in radiator support (front cross-member).

Anyone who thinks common restoration techniques (e.g. swapping pans) are too difficult has never been exposed to industrial work and equipment

It's funny that I come here optimistic and naive (shouldn't that be expected for a "newbie"?)... and A bunch of people jump on me with "just don't do it, I can't tell you why" with the tone of "you're an idiot"... THEN I get the car and someone finally tells me the rear floor pan is completely different which is a major obstacle... and some still claim not worth it. They've never seen a floor pan replaced, or a 5 foot steel section of a ship's hull, cut out and welded by three people in 4 hours. Probaly haven't seen a car restoration.

But you'll all be happy to find out I found another AWD shell that has a title. Should be here tomorrow.

And I'm sure you will still be (for some reason) upset to find out that the swapping project is still "go". If my mechanic friend is allowed to make a claim for $2500 by his boss I'll be getting a title for the white car. If not, I'm going to start by removing the rear pan from the AWD. I need to study the cars more than that, but if anything more needs to be swapped, it will be done

Maybe some are so doubtful because it might "outshine" their work.... BTW swapping bearing carriers is by no mean "major fabrication", and rubberized undercoating is the wrong way to prep bare metal on a car.

Sorry if I sound like a arrogant prick, but it took a long time to get a clear answer (rear pan would have to be swapped) and reading the words, I felt like there was a "you're new and an idiot" attitude... which frustrated me when the answers seemed unclear.

If you have anything to say, please, it would have greatly helped to say exactly what needs to be swapped, instead of vague and condescending remarks. The level of difficulty was expressed to me, and thanks.... As overwhelming as the project now seems, if a title might be acquirable I will wait for that. I might be eager, but not stupid

After realizing how much would have to be done, some might be asking themselves "why do it?". Well, because 1)you think it's not possible and 2)it will make the car legal (not to mention the right color)

wish me luck

p.s. please don't all jump on me like a pack of wolves, I've seen that done in other forums when Newbies come in with silly questions... Let's keep this on a mature level please... Peace

 

[mavisky]

Just because I'm new here and there's a computer screen seperating us, it doesn't give anyone the right to speak to me as you would a delinquent child. I guess I expected a different attitude here.

You're talking about tackling a pretty damn big project when you could just buy a running awd for about $1500. With asking the questions

well, I do read everything and I was wrong.

Humility is a rare sight to see on the internet.

Also for the front, All I have to do is swap out the front subframes... I will check tomorrow to see if the mounting points are there... but the ends look to be the same position. Why would anyone gripe about the front subframe?? I have both of them in my yard

You'll need to change out the entire front core support as well as that's where the cross members will mount to.

The rear shock mounts do not appear to be at a different positions, but I will measure tomorrow. If the rear frame rails rails are different, major paroblem... I would to look into more title options (reconstuction title?) even tomorrow I won't have time to measure... WHen I do, I'll get back on this

Upper shock mounts should be about the same, biggest problem is that the forward rear suspension mounts right where the gas tank is on your fwd.

THE ONLY MAJOR THING TO BE MODIFIED that I know for sure (no "fabrication" as you like to use the word loosely) is to swap out the rear floor pans... except for the bearing carrier (drill and weld), everything is bolt and unbolt.

A friend of mine that welds is laughin at the fact that anyone is scared to drill out welds and swap floor pans.... EVeryday, this process is being used to restore old cars. I've personally helped do that very process to swap welded-in radiator support (front cross-member).

Anyone who thinks common restoration techniques (e.g. swapping pans) are too difficult has never been exposed to industrial work and equipment

You're going to have to swap out the entire floorpan from behind the front seats forward. The process is nothing like an old classic car as they have actual frame rails and the floor simply covers that. In the case of a unibody the floor is the frame.

It's funny that I come here optimistic and naive (shouldn't that be expected for a "newbie"?)... and A bunch of people jump on me with "just don't do it, I can't tell you why" with the tone of "you're an idiot"... THEN I get the car and someone finally tells me the rear floor pan is completely different which is a major obstacle... and some still claim not worth it. They've never seen a floor pan replaced, or a 5 foot steel section of a ship's hull, cut out and welded by three people in 4 hours. Probaly haven't seen a car restoration.

But you'll all be happy to find out I found another AWD shell that has a title. Should be here tomorrow.

I told you why, I told you the floor pan was different before you got it, none of this has any relevance to a boat. The other awd shell is what you should've done from the beginning.

And I'm sure you will still be (for some reason) upset to find out that the swapping project is still "go". If my mechanic friend is allowed to make a claim for $2500 by his boss I'll be getting a title for the white car. If not, I'm going to start by removing the rear pan from the AWD. I need to study the cars more than that, but if anything more needs to be swapped, it will be done

If you want to wrap up a ton of time and custom fabrication into trying to build an awd when you could buy a shell for half the effort then be my guest. I'm not going to be upset or happy if you finish it.

Maybe some are so doubtful because it might "outshine" their work.... BTW swapping bearing carriers is by no mean "major fabrication", and rubberized undercoating is the wrong way to prep bare metal on a car.

I doubt anyone's worried about you "outshining their work".

Sorry if I sound like a arrogant prick, but it took a long time to get a clear answer (rear pan would have to be swapped) and reading the words, I felt like there was a "you're new and an idiot" attitude... which frustrated me when the answers seemed unclear.

Sorry I didn't find this thread earlier, but by the time you'd posted it you'd already ordered the chassis anyways.

If you have anything to say, please, it would have greatly helped to say exactly what needs to be swapped, instead of vague and condescending remarks. The level of difficulty was expressed to me, and thanks.... As overwhelming as the project now seems, if a title might be acquirable I will wait for that. I might be eager, but not stupid

After realizing how much would have to be done, some might be asking themselves "why do it?". Well, because 1)you think it's not possible and 2)it will make the car legal (not to mention the right color)

wish me luck

p.s. please don't all jump on me like a pack of wolves, I've seen that done in other forums when Newbies come in with silly questions... Let's keep this on a mature level please... Peace

I listed a generalization of the parts that need to be swapped. Go re-read my posts and you'll see some of the larger items. I'm sure there are more but seeing as how noone else has ever seriously attempted this given the fact that there are awd's sitting around everywhere to be bought there is no exact list of everything that needs to be swapped. I've seen people convert civics, mirages, and colts to awd, but those were all cars that didn't already have readily available awd models made. It's certainly doable, but not easily, and not cheaply (I'm talking time or money invested).

 

[Freerevving]

You're talking about tackling a pretty damn big project when you could just buy a running awd for about $1500. With asking the questions



Humility is a rare sight to see on the internet.



You'll need to change out the entire front core support as well as that's where the cross members will mount to.



Upper shock mounts should be about the same, biggest problem is that the forward rear suspension mounts right where the gas tank is on your fwd.



You're going to have to swap out the entire floorpan from behind the front seats forward. The process is nothing like an old classic car as they have actual frame rails and the floor simply covers that. In the case of a unibody the floor is the frame.



I told you why, I told you the floor pan was different before you got it, none of this has any relevance to a boat. The other awd shell is what you should've done from the beginning.



If you want to wrap up a ton of time and custom fabrication into trying to build an awd when you could buy a shell for half the effort then be my guest. I'm not going to be upset or happy if you finish it.



I doubt anyone's worried about you "outshining their work".



Sorry I didn't find this thread earlier, but by the time you'd posted it you'd already ordered the chassis anyways.





I listed a generalization of the parts that need to be swapped. Go re-read my posts and you'll see some of the larger items. I'm sure there are more but seeing as how noone else has ever seriously attempted this given the fact that there are awd's sitting around everywhere to be bought there is no exact list of everything that needs to be swapped. I've seen people convert civics, mirages, and colts to awd, but those were all cars that didn't already have readily available awd models made. It's certainly doable, but not easily, and not cheaply (I'm talking time or money invested).

Thank you... I greatly appreciate your time and professional attitude

I found one running GSX around here for exactly $1500 (still much more than I have spent) and it was sold a few hours after it was listed. There is a running GST being sold for, IIRC, 2800 (rediculous). Titled shells around here are going for around $1000 and above, and you rarely see them, and junkyards usually flat-out refuse to sell the them as a whole... but I "lucked out" yesterday having a black-on-black delivered today with a title.

You're absolutely right... I should have bought the black shell first... Somehow I missed the listing until yesterday. Still glad I got the white one with all the parts including a 4 bolt.

Pans are often drilled or cut out on foreign cars, because with uni-bodies the whole car is usually welded in sections. With many cars these sections have part numbers and can be ordered from the factory. Fortunately, Mitsubishi has an obvious seperation with the rear pan and the frame rails (black seam sealer covering the section). The rear mounting brackets look like they have only three or four spots that will need to be drilled or cut. So far, I've only seen 2 holes that might need to be tapped... but I need to do more reasearch after the tank is dropped.

The white shell doesn't have the front-most subframe connected to the core support, but I will investigate further... thanks for the heads-up

Since this will be put on the back-burner, I will try to convin$e my body shop mechanic friend to put a lien on it.

I'm glad you appreciate my humility Mavisky... wrong is wrong, right is right... your knowledge is greatly appreciated