How much flow on this 50trim? (g50)

[Logue]

I have been doing some logs.

I have been trying to figure out why 3rd gear doesn't get full boost 24 psi till around 4400rpm. In 4th i will get full boost at 4100rpm. So i have an internaly gated SBRg50. I tightened up the adjustable actuator. And I have been getting some spike issues but it was expected. It now spikes 28psi and tapers off to 23psi redline. Builds boost faster though. The wideband reads 11.7 falling to 10.2 at redline. And pulls like a mother... 650cc injectors also.. looking at the Airflow can we tell how much Air the 50trim is flowing here? There is an equation right? If i'm thinking correctly.. Its should be flowing around 54lb/min. correct?


High settings AFC (roughly)

-26 -26 -26 -25 -25 -25 -24 -24 -24

Clt--------RPM-Timing--IAT- Airflow-TPS----O2 1
202-------2948--23------84---6.2-----98------0.90
203-------3180--24------86---7.3-----98------0.92
203-------3592--19------88---10------98------0.94
203-------3896--11------90---15.41--98.62--0.96
203-------4284--7-------91---22.35---98.62--0.94
203-------4780--9-------93---26.0----98.62--0.94
203-------5420--11.-----95---28.77---98.62--0.94
207-------6200--11.-----95---29.98---98.62--0.94

 

[GVR4592]

Do you have cams and a sheetmetal intake?

 

[Logue]

No Stock 1g head and stock 1g manifold.

 

[CanadianTSi]

39.44lbs/min

Formula is 1- what your correction factor is, in this case 24.

So 1 - .24 = .76

Then airflow seen by the logger divided by that.

So 29.98/.76 = 39.44 lbs/min

 

[2gGSX]

It looks like you're getting significant knock after boost hits. The timing curve dips down when boost hits which is normal, but it never actually rises really. This could be a side-effect of the SAFC pulling out so much fuel to compensate for the injectors (or any number of things).

Based on your logs and your correction, you're flowing ~39-40 lbs/min in the upper RPM range [29.98/(1-.24)].

Edit: arg! beaten to the punch. Damn you tv.

 

[Logue]

Thanks guys, is 39-40lb's/min a respectable number givin this set-up?

I feel that in that pull considering I only went to 6200rpm, I think i would have got another degree or 2 of time by 7000rpm. I had to stop I thought I found a good place to do some pulls no traffic at all but tonight i got caught by a park ranger in a old school ford "exploder" doing 100+(shhhhh)

I was thinking that too but is it true that Coolant temps above 206* will hold timing back one degree from stock map. And also IAT temps above 85 or 90 degrees will hold the timing back a degree also.

 

[mastadogg2]

your still within 16g territory with that airflow. atleast the evo3. I think your g50 turbo is a 48-50lb/min turbo if im not mistaken. you have alot to go yet to max that turbo out. but without proper tuning software it makes things that much more difficult. I recommend getting a dsmchip to compensate for the deadtime on those bigger injectors, then you will beable to fine tune your fuel map with the safc. if you dont have a eprom ecu thats another problem tho :/

edit: after looking at your timing tables, ya you are knocking alot. its being pulled alot.
try richening out where your knocking. if it doesnt go away try leaning it out. i have
experienced rich knock plenty of times. by just looking at your o2 voltage your running
to lean. atleast for my car it would be lean. what Ive experienced is 0.95-0.97 seems to
be about right on. when I had a safc + logger i couldnt get tuned very well myself.

 

[GVR4592]

Yeah your A/F is all backwards. You say it's 11.7 and drops to 10.2 by redline, while boost is 28 and drops to 23 by redline. Your A/F should be richer during the torque peak, and should lean out a little after the torque peak. If boost is falling off and you are adding fuel, that will kill the power. Try to avoid going richer than 10.5:1, it shouldn't really be neccesary unless your turbo is out of it's efficiency range, and you're using fuel to cool the charge. You should also figure out why boost is falling off so much, that's not normal.

edit: after looking at your timing tables, ya you are knocking alot. its being pulled alot.
try richening out where your knocking. if it doesnt go away try leaning it out. i have
experienced rich knock plenty of times. by just looking at your o2 voltage your running
to lean. atleast for my car it would be lean. what Ive experienced is 0.95-0.97 seems to
be about right on. when I had a safc + logger i couldnt get tuned very well myself.

O2 voltage should be completely ignored, it's a waste of time.. If you had trouble tuning your car, don't you think it's kind of odd that you are giving tuning advice?

 

[Logue]

Alright I don't know if the pulls I did last night I was imagining things or what. But today on my way to the girlfriends house. I didn't bring the logger with me but 3rd gear pulls from 3k the wideband into boost read 10.3 to 10.9 to redline. I didn't change any setting from last night. I did a couple pulls and they where all pretty much the same one or two times it went a little leaner towards redline.

Heres some question. If I want to try to give it some more timing. I should take away fuel on the afc to trick the ECU into seeing less air and give it more timeing. But at the same time i am leaning it out i'm giving more of a chance to knock. So i'm guessing this were the e-prom chip comes in to help.

 

[daren_p]

While his 50 trim may be capable of ~50 lb/min, he won't see this at the levels of boost he is running and he is being held back by the stock head/cams. Replace those cams and he should see a nice bump in airflow.

You are correct in that taking away more fuel will add more timing. Both reducing the fuel and increasing the timing increase the chance of knock. This is where DSMLink really helps you out with the ability to adjust the timing independetly of the fuel settings.

I also think you might be seeing some knock as even though its not a full pull the advance still looks abit to slow. GVR4592 is correct on you air/fuel ratios, they are backwards to what they should be.

 

[mastadogg2]

O2 voltage should be completely ignored, it's a waste of time.. If you had trouble tuning your car, don't you think it's kind of odd that you are giving tuning advice?

speak for yourself. if you know your car well enough you can use o2 voltage. (I didnt realize he did have a wideband tho) (in that case i wouldnt even log o2 volt) I have no idea who you're referring to that had trouble tuning there car either cause i sure dont. the higher the rpm's the more airflow + injector duty cycle. hes still running somewhat decent. altho with a 10.9 a/f on default link sliders i almost made the same numbers as him on a much smaller turbo.. for what hes working with hes not doing to bad tho. Depending on the fuel your using I would say get your A/F around 11.3-11.4. and no higher. 11.5 is about the maximum safe limit on pump gas (depending on car). as for leaning out uptop.. no......uptop is where the most airflow is being flowed, and the injectors are at there peak duty cycle uptop. When I tune I just lean out up to about 6k or so. altho if your wideband is reading 10.2 or something very rich then you very well may have to lean it up uptop. this goes for any car, you can never tune 1 car and think you can tune them all. every car requires a different tune. some cars run extremely rich, some extremely lean. with a wideband + safc + logger you should beable to get a pretty damn good tune with some patience and reading your timing tables and watching as they dip and compensating for the knock occuring.

You are correct in that taking away more fuel will add more timing. Both reducing the fuel and increasing the timing increase the chance of knock. This is where DSMLink really helps you out with the ability to adjust the timing independetly of the fuel settings.

Timing is not fully determined by your a/f mixture. timing is determined by how much airflow the MAF sees. Once the MAF gets an airflow reading it then determines a/f & which timing map to use based off the airflow. Our ecu's have 3 timing maps. The only other things that will effect timing will be intake temps, coolant temps.

I would tune for 11.3-11.4 at the set boost level you want. then log some 3rd gear pulls. when you see timing dipping, then richen it up and do another pull until you get it under control. you will soon see why pocketloggers can be a headache. if you have the patience then you have everything you need to get a somewhat good tune. I figure you already have your fuel trims tuned and etc.

 

[mastadogg2]

btw, if you havent done so yet, I highly recommend you re-wire that 190lph pump your using. Our factory fuel pump wiring is very very restrictive. You can find a rewire kit on ebay fairly cheap with everything required. or you can walk in radio shack and get the parts together yourself.

 

[daren_p]

Timing is not fully determined by your a/f mixture. timing is determined by how much airflow the MAF sees. Once the MAF gets an airflow reading it then determines a/f & which timing map to use based off the airflow. Our ecu's have 3 timing maps. The only other things that will effect timing will be intake temps, coolant temps.

I would tune for 11.3-11.4 at the set boost level you want. then log some 3rd gear pulls. when you see timing dipping, then richen it up and do another pull until you get it under control. you will soon see why pocketloggers can be a headache. if you have the patience then you have everything you need to get a somewhat good tune. I figure you already have your fuel trims tuned and etc.

Where did I say timing is fully determined by your air/fuel ratio Depending on what octane he's running mid 11's is a fairly lean tune, but every car is different so the only way to tell is log it. I'd shoot for 11 to 1 or slightly richer to start with & go from there. As for adding fuel to richen up the upper rpms, that is incorrect GVR4592 is correct, you want to lean it out abit in the upper rpms to make more power & you are less likely to knock at higher rpms. You want it richer in the 4500-5500 range as this is where the rpms drop back to between shifts and when you get peak cylinder pressure, increasing the chances of knock.

As for narrow band O2 readings, there are repeatable for your own vehicle, so if you know your own vehicle they can give you an idea of whats going on, but as far as comparing them to another vehicle they are useless. Personally I see .90-.92 volts on an 11 to 1 tune but this could be vary lean on someones elses car.

 

[mastadogg2]

Where did I say timing is fully determined by your air/fuel ratio

You are correct in that taking away more fuel will add more timing <-- right there.
taking away fuel will do nothing to timing. the only thing that determines timing is airflow.

As for richening up from 4500-5500 ... I dont know about that. Out of all the logs Ive ever seen on dsmlink of the guys that are running 11's with 16g's and 10's on larger turbos, Ive never seen them actually richen it up around that area. If it works for your car thats all that counts tho. they start from lower rpm leaning it out slowly to gradually leaning it out alot more the further in the rpm. if your richening your car up in that 4500-5500rpm range I can imagine your car falls on its face around those rpms. (atleast mine would). theres actually a limit to how rich you can actually go. you will begin to experience rich knock if you throw to much fuel where its not needed.

 

[mastadogg2]

you want to lean it out abit in the upper rpms to make more power & you are less likely to knock at higher rpms.

That would explain why i shoot flames to much uptop inbetween shifts. I have my fuel sliders on my link not adjusted uptop. I was afraid I might experience knock uptop. I will lean out my upper rpm's and see how that goes then.

As for narrow band O2 readings, there are repeatable for your own vehicle, so if you know your own vehicle they can give you an idea of whats going on, but as far as comparing them to another vehicle they are useless. .

Very true.

 

[2gGSX]

You are correct in that taking away more fuel will add more timing <-- right there.
taking away fuel will do nothing to timing. the only thing that determines timing is airflow.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but you're forgetting that the original poster is using a SAFC for fuel tuning. Thus pulling fuel (decreasing airflow seen) will in this case add more timing.

 

[daren_p]

You are correct in that taking away more fuel will add more timing <-- right there.
taking away fuel will do nothing to timing. the only thing that determines timing is airflow.

You are incorrect he is using an SAFC, not DSMLink. While adjusting the fuel in DSMLink won't affect the timing it WILL with an SAFC. An SAFC is a piggyback system, it modifies the signal from the MAF before it gets to the ecu. When you remove fuel with an SAFC you are reducing the input to the ecu. The ecu sees less airflow & therefore increases timing. Depending on your tuning device, taking away fuel CAN directly effect your timing.

As for richening it up in the 4500-5500 rpms range, Im not talking about physically moving the sliders in a positive direction to add fuel ontop of the base maps, you still remove fuel just slightly less then the higher rpms (run a slightly richer air/fuel ratio). For example mid 10's in that range leaning out to 11 in the top end. If you are going to knock, this is the area wheere it is most likely to happen.

 

[Logue]

Hmm.. good info guys.. Yes. I am not using DSMlink. Just an AFCII and a logger. I am in New Jersey so i run sunoco 93oct. So I can not phyically advance my timing without messing with fuel side. I need dsmlink... A couple more pulls today its hot and humid out here right now.

4500-5000rpm running 10.0-10.5a/f
5000-6500rpm 10.5 - 11.3a/f

Those are 3rd gear numbers. If I shift into forth the reading will leaner. I caught a glipse of a 12.0 on the Uego gauge. Should I do all my pulls in fouth? Today I will get a log of a third and fourth gear pull.

 

[2gGSX]

Third gear pulls are fine to tune by. Besides, no one's going to recommend that you go 100+ while making a pull on a public road.

 

[CanadianTSi]

40lbs/min is very respectable on the street.

I flow around 43lbs/min to trap 121mph.

 

[mastadogg2]

You are incorrect he is using an SAFC, not DSMLink. While adjusting the fuel in DSMLink won't affect the timing it WILL with an SAFC. An SAFC is a piggyback system, it modifies the signal from the MAF before it gets to the ecu.

you have a point there. Im so used to using my software I didnt even think about how safc worked there for a minute. In this tuning situation you are correct. my apologies.