How competetive can i be in a DSM?

[xloki77x]

I think you should keep saving up your money and just keep attending track days, but that's just my 2 cents.

"NO, no, no, no No Lloyd! I say we STAY HERE, we HUNT FOR JOBS, and we keep saving our money for the WORM STORE!"

Theres a joke on the GRM forums: "'Miata' is the ultimate answer to any automotive question." Basically, if you want a competitive car on the cheap, get a Miata. Competitive on a national level is probably not a feasible expectation for a 1g. However, this does not mean you cannot have an absolute blast in one.

DSM's are a great value from a performance perspective, just not the handling perspective (2g > 1g). If you can figure out how to use a dsm's strong points and minimize the weak ones (and drive the hell out of it) you can absolutely be competitive in a local setting. AWD turbo coupe. nuff said.

Pete

 

[Superman]

I just wanted to add my opinion to this thread. I'm no expert on auto x, however, last year I took my DD 1990 talon TSI to the Etown road course to experience road racing for the first time. I loved it. Best time I have ever had. The car over heated, the brakes faded, the power steering fluid boiled over, and I got a serious workout trying to keep myself in the seat. It was great. I watched while those other cars flew around the track with no problems. I said to myself, that's cool, I'll be back. I read all the threads I could find on making a 1g handle on the track. Over the winter I bought a hood vent, RRE brakes pads, RRE strut bars front and back, toe eliminator, poly bushings all around, aluminum radiator, new upgraded power steering cooler, pedals, better seats, etc. The point is either you love DSMs or you don't. If you want a Honda or Miata that's cool. Personally I would spend the money to get these cars to perform; rather than to jump ship and get a Honda just so that I have an easier way to go. Our cars were successful at road racing back in the day; so they can handle well. I'll see how she does when I go back to the track. Regardless, I love dsms and would not spend money on anything else.

 

[xloki77x]

The point is either you love DSMs or you don't.

I think the point of this thread is if a dsm can be competitive, not if you love them or not. I think this website is dedicated to people who love these cars. It's what makes us feel good. I LOVE dsm's and have spent the better part of 5 years working on them and making them perform better. I have road raced, auto-x'd, drag raced, and rally'd them and know what they are capable of.

If you want a Honda or Miata that's cool. Personally I would spend the money to get these cars to perform; rather than to jump ship and get a Honda just so that I have an easier way to go.

But if you want to win...JK

Our cars were successful at road racing back in the day.

Nobody is saying they CAN"T be competitive (gixxer drew, the One Lap VR4, etc) and there are probably more dsm's racing competitively today than ever before. It simply takes A LOT to get there.

 

[Superman]

I think the point of this thread is if a dsm can be competitive, not if you love them or not. I think this website is dedicated to people who love these cars. It's what makes us feel good. I LOVE dsm's and have spent the better part of 5 years working on them and making them perform better. I have road raced, auto-x'd, drag raced, and rally'd them and know what they are capable of.



But if you want to win...JK


Nobody is saying they CAN"T be competitive (gixxer drew, the One Lap VR4, etc) and there are probably more dsm's racing competitively today than ever before. It simply takes A LOT to get there.

I see your point.

 

[tstkl]

I love how everyone is saying a 1g can't be as competitive as a 2g and yet the only DSM to ever win on a national level for road racing is a fwd 1g.

ANYTHING can be competitive, with a good driver and overhaul. Personally I think the 1g is MUCH better than the 2g because of its lower center of gravity, especially when you compare the height of the center of gravity between the front and rear of each car.

point is, STOP RIPPING ON 1g's, they need love too!

 

[xloki77x]

Is Redline Time Attack NOT national level enough for you?!? It is probably the most recognized road racing event in the country right now. Gixxer Drew has been owning the FWD Modified West class for two years. From a handling perspective the 2g is much better than the 1g. Double a-arm trumps macpherson, hands down.

I LOVE 1g's and no one is bashing them; it has it's strong points and weak points like every car. Handling is not one of its strong points. The 4g63 and AWD are of it's strong points. You can make them handle well enough, but unless you really want to spend a crap ton of money another platform would be a cheaper, easier, less painful, and overall smarter way to go.

The OP asked how competitive you could be in a 1g. I am not going to sit here and say you can because it's just not feasible right now. There is no way a 1g will compete with Evo's and STi's (because that is who you will be competing against). They have been designed VERY well from the factory from their diff's to their CoG.

I am in no way saying that you won't have an absolute blast driving the 1g on course; I know, I've done it. However, it takes a BIG bankroll to build and track a race car.

BTW, this is something that hasnt been mentioned here and in almost every case the car is not the issue. It's the driver. Ask anyone who races and they will tell you the same thing. Forget about the car and get seat time. SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME, SEAT TIME!!! That is how you will get competitive, whether in a 1g, 2g, or Geo Storm.

Pete

 

[tstkl]

not bashing on gixxer drew, but you can't honestly compare what he has done to date with what greg collier has. Greg Coillier won. He won first place. Number one overall. In the SUPER UNLIMITED CLASS. This was head to head with vipers, porsches, corvettes, and anything else that was entered at the time. Also, just because wishbone suspension is a superior design on paper to macpherson struts doesn't make the whole package better. I'd take an ''inferior macpherson evo'' to a ''superior wishbone 2g'' any day. Personally, when I am behind the wheel of a 2g and I turn in, I feel like the plastic body surrounding me is rolling just like my mom's minivan. As for a 1g not being feasible to upgrade, its much easier to put larger wheels on a 1g than a 2g due to clearances, and its much cheaper to upgrade the suspension and have adjustment control over things like camber and caster due to camber/caster plates. The gixxer drew took the whole front subframe out just to change the lower pickup points of his suspension. Is that within the scope of a weekend driver's abilities? Not really. Is measuring tire temperatures and changing camber/caster by 5 degrees realistic? Me and my 40 dollar infared thermometer say yes.

The biggest change greg made to the suspension that i can remember was the toe in elimination kit on the rear trailing arms. Thats something you can remove, drop off at a local welder and tell him what to do, come back the next day and take it home/install it. I should know, I've installed them before and I actually know the man who originally came up with the idea, mike c. from DSS. Other than that he kept things pretty simple the year he won. Also keep in mind this was in a fwd car, which has inferior weight distribution and less traction under acceleration.

greg was one of the people that knew best the driver is more important than the car, but since you already mentioned it I'm wondering why you seem to advocate one car over another so much. I'm not saying a 1g is BETTER, I'm saying that saying a 2g is better isn't necessarily right.

 

[Ludachris]

In my opinion, you can be as competitive as you want (and can afford to be) in a 1g or a 2g. They are at a disadvantage due to classing most of the time in the near stock classes, but you can still be very fast if you mod them the right way and don't get carried away with the power output. If you keep the boost down and focus on the suspension, you can make them very competitive on the local level. National level will require quite a bit more money, but it's still possible. You just have to be dedicated, creative, and innovative - not to mention a very good driver.

There hasn't been much R&D invested into the suspension of these cars, especially the 1g, so there aren't many parts available for them compared to other platforms. But if you're creative, you can make up for that. Sometimes it's expensive, but sometimes you can save a lot of money by using parts made for other cars. For most of us, it's more about having fun than being ultra competitive. And you can have tons of fun with these cars on a budget at the road course - believe me on that. If you want to have Z06 and Porsche owners coming over to see what you're running after the session, you will have fun modding and tracking your DSM. To me, that's just as fun as competing for a trophy in a specific class.

 

[jdsoza]

I agree with Ludachris, drive time and not spending so much on power. People focus on power, but what can power be with no control? Aerodymanics play a role, and so custom pieces can be fortified to improve handling. I am starting on my time attack project this year, but I am finding stock suspension pieces for spares, that I am giving to my fabricator to modify and hope that mine and his ideas work, if they don't then we are out a few bucks and go back to the drawing table. There are EVOS with macpherson struts that are beating Super GT lap times, just look at at the HKS C230 EVO. That car is expensive mostly because of the Dry Carbon Fiber body. I am taking my chance on creativity just like our great founder of this website said. If somebody r&d's and builds something that can put our 1G's on a level that can compete with the rest of the Unlimited AWD, i hate to say it but they can be sucessful in racing, and a chance in being sucessful financially. So isay go for it. let your mind run wild and good luck!

 

[knochgoon24]

My car isn't competitive in autox. I race it just for fun, but last time I had my car at one (it was a test and tune) I had a line of people wanting rides. Even the guy who owned the Lotus Elise wanted a ride.

The car had 400 treadwear, 215/50/17 all season tires on the car. It just squealed the tires EVERYWHERE. Fixed that problem since then.
I think brake boosting it at the start is what really got people's attention. It just ripped down the first straight away. The turn at the end of that straight was my biggest problem. I just didn't want to let off the gas.

 

[Achelea]

That's why if I ever hit the lottery, I'm gonna try to see what can be shoehorned into these little cars.

Wonder how hard it would be to borrow parts from BMWs. . . Pushbutton adjustable shocks anyone.

 

[DeceptivePerfor]

My 2 copper disc with a dead Presidents Bust is this. I would either go AWD 1G DSM or Miata. I would shy away from FWD because of front end push. Now lets look at the Miata vs DSM.

DSM-AWD grip, you can still get an AWD to rotate nicely in turns with enough power. Your grip is going to be more consistent throughout the day because of the AWD. You have good power and torque. Be smart about the turbo you use as to keep that good power band. The gearbox is tight ratio. You are going to stay in the power band more. You can spend more of your money on suspension and brakes without having to spend a ton on tires. Fairly lightweight. Fairly cheap parts.

Miata-lightweight, RWD. You can toss these cars around fairly easily also. Again, tight gearbox to keep you in the power band. Good aftermarket. Fairly good stock suspension setup. Seeing that these cars are RWD and light, you can get these cars to rotate in corners with the gas if you do not have enough steering. The only downfall I see is that the Miata is not AWD and is going to be less structurely sound because it is a vert. Miatas seem fairly popular in these events so, I would imagine they do well.

I am not an engineer, mechanic, or do anything with cars other than as a hobby. This is from what I have seen, read, or my limited spectrum of knowledge plus a little common sense. I would go with the DSM seeing as you already have one. More money to spend later.

 

[knochgoon24]

DSMs handle differently depending on how you drive them, like any car. I don't have anything done to my suspension (I think it's still the original stock suspension with a god-awful amount of miles) and I can get the back end to rotate. It's just a bit more technical to get an AWD (and even FWD) car to rotate compared to a RWD car. That's where driver's skill really starts to make a difference. The car can only do so much.

Once you learn and understand the physics, you'll learn how you need to drive.

 

[gusu]

If you really want to get into racing I'd go with something ACTUALLY imported.

In Japan most people get rid of a car after a few years. One of my girlfriends friends had a Skyline GTR with a bad power steering pump. The car there was worth so little she abandoned it on the side of the road instead of spending the 400 dollars to get it fixed.

If you have a friend in the military over in Japan you can most likely get them to send it over for really cheap or free depending on their rank.

Then you get the title built and drive it over. The whole thing should cost around 3-4 grand. The only reason why people don't do it all the time is because getting the title can be a huge pain in the ass and trying to get it to pass emissions but I'm assuming you would be wanting to run E85 so that should get you passed the whole emissions BS anyway.

I almost thought about doing it myself but she had already ditched the car before I could ask her to send it to me... would have been free too





Oh, I forgot to add the Integra Type-R is said to have the best stock handling of any production car. They are also about as rare as snow in Antarctica.

 

[xloki77x]

This thread is getting ridiculous.

I love 1g's and you can make them competitive, but you will have a hell of a time doing it. That has been my stance from the beginning. I never said Macpherson cannot be competitive. Obviously not because Evo's were among the opponents the 1g will be classed with and are demons on course.

Go have fun with your car. Nobody is telling you not to have fun and THAT is the reason for wrenching on these things, spending money on them, spending our valuable time on them, and driving them. Again, we own dsm's because we love (read: HATE) them.

TSTKL - Greg is an anomaly. He is a fantastic driver and had a great team, great knowledge, and I'm sure a great bankroll to back his car. He sure was competitve back then, but cars have come a long way in the world of road racing and time attack since his stint in the DSM world.

 

[tstkl]

I'm pretty sure the year he won was 2006, and the next year was the year he got sponsors and changed everything and anything he could on the car and like most dsm'ers had more downtime than running time and missed events preventing him from being able to compete that year. I don't remember him ever mentioning much of a team other than his wife. The only way he was an anomaly was that he spent years practicing to become good, something we both agree is required to win.

Anyone who wants to road race competitively has to spend a ton of money. If someone gives you the most competitive car in the world for free, you still have to buy rubber for it, race gas, transport it to the track (more gas), get a hotel for the race weekend, most likely eat out unless you pack lunches for the whole weekend, etc.

A local shop here has the original red body kit from his car before it became the flying banana and I think it shows hes a normal dsm'er like the rest of us. He didn't have carbon fiber, or anything else too crazy for that matter. He started spending crazy money the year after he won. He got all the sponsors because he won and was able to build a crazy car but got carried away.

I currently am building up my conquest, but if I hadn't totaled my talon I'd be finished with the build I had going on that car and hoping to be competitive in that.

I think the main point of this thread is autocross though, in which case we are both fairly off topic using drew and greg as comparisons.

 

[xloki77x]

Agreed, but not as far off as some...

I wish emissions was the only thing holding me back from getting a skyline...

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

WTF

I hate to be the douche here, but an asinine amount of these responses show how little knowledge there is in racing on this forum. If you are serious about getting into racing, stop looking on here for answers. Jump on SCCA forums/NASA forums for rules/experiences etc. Also join miata/bmw/mustang forums just for their track sessions. A day of posts in those sections have more pertinent and accurate information for road racing than dsmtuners has had in its complete past.

Now, once you have spent a few months learning something, come back here and start with educated information and experimentation with the DSMs and share your knowledge then back here.

DISCLAIMER: I love these forums, and want to see them grow, but a new person cannot learn what they need to become competitive here yet...go do the research and then come back and share the wealth!

Really....if your interested in autocross and road racing, go out with your car the way it is and do at least 5 events, talk to people there, and try to compete in the class your already in. Let me know how much you change your whole conception of where you want to go. Its hilarious people talking about skylines, crazy custom subframes/suspensions, turbo setups. Great...all that stuff is putting you against people that have 10+ years of experience on you, better starting platforms, 10s or hundreds of thousands of dollars, and proper engineers on you. You wont be competitive nationally....PERIOD, dont fool yourself. The only way a DSM guy is going to be competitive is if you had a team of engineers and 100s of thousands of dollars. Greg was a serious fluke, he was an incredible driver, got lucky, and road racing has now gotten serious attention meaning moar money to big teams, I dont think he could compete if he came back.

If I could do it over again, I would have started with a BONE stock DSM, and raced and then realized where I could mod the car to be in a class. GO OUT THERE, RACE the way you are, do a season (at least 6-10 events with one group), and then come back and say you want to do these crazy setups. 99% of you would have dumped racing, or realized the need to not modify, and work within the class rules. And realized that Time Trial Unlimited and high up classes will just get you owned.

 

[DeceptivePerfor]

Oh, I forgot to add the Integra Type-R is said to have the best stock handling of any production car. They are also about as rare as snow in Antarctica.

Actually, the car that was raved about for the FWD handling Characteristics is the Mazda MP3 and Mazdaspeed Protege. Sport Compact Car used an MP3 (Protege with a laundry list of Racing Beat parts) as their SCCA Race Car. Sport Compact Car actually said that the MP3 and the Speed Protege was faster on the course than the Integra Type R.

As far as racing goes, I agree with the post from D Eclipse9916. I got very intersted in SCCA Racing years back. I have not had a chance to compete but, there is alot to learn. It is best to start out stock and go from there. That way, you can guage your actual interest once you are doing it. Plus, you can see where you need to invest your money. Bolt ons are always going to be good basic mods as they just make your car more predictable. Again, you have to see what your class allows. I would do a test season as urged above. Most classes restrict the mods done and rely more on skill and consistency.

 

[Ludachris]

TSTKL - Greg is an anomaly. He is a fantastic driver and had a great team, great knowledge, and I'm sure a great bankroll to back his car. He sure was competitve back then, but cars have come a long way in the world of road racing and time attack since his stint in the DSM world.

I got to meet Greg and his team (his wife) at an event at Buttonwillow. When his car won, it was not some crazy build that required a ton of money. In fact, I was amazed at how competitive he was with such a simple build. Sure, he probably got some good sponsorship to cover tuning and the bigger expenses. But he had a very modest build for a DSM, and it wouldn't have required anywhere near the expenses of the build Andrew is doing with his Time Attack car. You might say that's not possible now, but really, how many DSMers have really tried it since Greg? And that's always been the problem in the DSM world - very few passionate road racers.

Greg was a great driver, but he also relied on various pros to work their magic - a tuning pro to do the tuning, a tranny pro to rebuild the tranny, a suspension pro to dial in the suspension. He didn't try to do it all himself. He paid a pro to do it or got sponsorship to cover the costs. Road racing is expensive, but I believe his racing efforts were on the lower side of the typical racing budget for a Super Unlimited effort. That's what was so amazing about his wins. Could he be competitive now? I think so. He might not win now, but he'd probably find a way to be competitive.

Granted, that was 4 years ago, but the beauty about racing is that the newer cars that have better technology are usually more limited in what they can modify in most classes to keep the playing field level against older cars - that might not be the case in the Super Unlimited class, which is what Greg raced in. But a DSM should still be able to compete if it's built right and has a good driver if you do things right.

Greg was an anomaly though - he wasn't your typical DSMer. He didn't take short cuts and he didn't try to do everything on the cheap. He went with the best when it counted. But he didn't go overboard. How many DSMers do you know would stick with a 16g setup and a side mount intercooler? That's what Greg won with, while the rest of the DSM community gets sucked into the big turbo and FMIC whirlwind daily. It wasn't until Greg tried a complete build and went with a big turbo and intercooler that he started having problems. Hell, that should be a pretty big lesson right there.

 

[jdsoza]

I agree with chris once again. Very few passionate road racers and time trial guys. Andrew has a great and super fast time attack machine. Engineered to it's full purpose, a machine I envy and also get inspired from. Thats where the line drawn for 1G DSM's stop. I hear all the time handling is not a strong point. I believe it can be, with a little or a whole lot of work. For example, engine power is a strong point. 100HP a liter is powerful right? How about the drag racers pushing 800HP and over 400HP a liter? The builders of the cars and engineers who build the aftermarket parts focused on improving that. Has any body here other than Andrew used a double-adjustable, triple adjustable or even a 4-way adjustable coilover? Most would say no its not needed. If it wasn't needed then why does every other car use them in the unlimited class? A car can only be as good as the driver, and the power can only mach how the car is designed to grip the road. I agree with everybody else who say seat time. Go do events stock, mod your car according to the classes you wish to race. get good with the power you have. Power isn't the only thing that makes you fast. be an engineer to your race car and at the same time engineer yourself. pratice practice and more practice.

 

[tstkl]

I got to meet Greg and his team (his wife) at an event at Buttonwillow. When his car won, it was not some crazy build that required a ton of money. In fact, I was amazed at how competitive he was with such a simple build. Sure, he probably got some good sponsorship to cover tuning and the bigger expenses. But he had a very modest build for a DSM, and it wouldn't have required anywhere near the expenses of the build Andrew is doing with his Time Attack car. You might say that's not possible now, but really, how many DSMers have really tried it since Greg? And that's always been the problem in the DSM world - very few passionate road racers.

Greg was a great driver, but he also relied on various pros to work their magic - a tuning pro to do the tuning, a tranny pro to rebuild the tranny, a suspension pro to dial in the suspension. He didn't try to do it all himself. He paid a pro to do it or got sponsorship to cover the costs. Road racing is expensive, but I believe his racing efforts were on the lower side of the typical racing budget for a Super Unlimited effort. That's what was so amazing about his wins. Could he be competitive now? I think so. He might not win now, but he'd probably find a way to be competitive.

Granted, that was 4 years ago, but the beauty about racing is that the newer cars that have better technology are usually more limited in what they can modify in most classes to keep the playing field level against older cars - that might not be the case in the Super Unlimited class, which is what Greg raced in. But a DSM should still be able to compete if it's built right and has a good driver if you do things right.

Greg was an anomaly though - he wasn't your typical DSMer. He didn't take short cuts and he didn't try to do everything on the cheap. He went with the best when it counted. But he didn't go overboard. How many DSMers do you know would stick with a 16g setup and a side mount intercooler?

Just as I thought, now we can quit speculating that just because he did win he spent a ton of money to do it.

That's what Greg won with, while the rest of the DSM community gets sucked into the big turbo and FMIC whirlwind daily. It wasn't until Greg tried a complete build and went with a big turbo and intercooler that he started having problems. Hell, that should be a pretty big lesson right there.

says the man with a 50 trim on his road racer, hahahahha


and coincidentally I actually did pick up an evoIII16g for my conquest's build. Gonna run 10 psi until I can get more weight to the rear and stop this thing from spinning all over the place. It came with an fmic from the factory, so I'll stick with one of those, although its only 2.75" thick and 8.5" tall.


It seems like a lot of people are trying to find new ways to say the same thing everyone in this thread has been all along. Experience is key and don't go crazy with your build until you know how to drive the crap out of it. Personally I like the idea of nabbing a stock 944 for about 1k and racing in spec classes. that way you can mod your car and race in a lower class too!

 

[m3smgii2002]

Track time is the most important factor. I've seen guys in Mini Coopers and Miatas beat C5 Corvettes on the road course and I've been beaten by gutless Lotus Elise's on those same tracks. On the 2G, you can make it turn-in with trailing-throttle even on high-speed sweepers. You need good throttle control and steering input and the ability to predict when boost will kick in. I run Koni/GAB/GC hard on rear & soft on front. Roll-cage makes it quite stiff so haven't found need for solid bushings yet.

I wouldn't "upgrade" or change anything (even tires) until I mastered the car as-is. On my M3 CSL, it took me 12-hours of track time (100s of laps) before I even took off all the traction control systems (DCS) and go to R-compounds. It'll take me a another few 100 laps to master the car on R-compounds.

-M

 

[Black95TSIawd]

No offense to Greg Collier, but he did not compete with some of these big boy shops that we have today. Also, Greg usually won by default... Meaning, no racer showed up to every event like he did. And, if you remember his write-up's on the races when they did show up, he did not win.

Compared to what's out there today.... vette's, porches, EVO's, sti's, then NO, a DSM is not going to be competitive. You would need a lot of money and a lot of time. If I had A LOT of money, I would much rather road race a porsche or an evo.