Help me pick my engine management

[Eclipse99GST]

Hello everyone. Still stumped with what I could get for my GS-T. It is mostly street driven and I just want to really be able to tune well, but be user friendly. I read a lot of posts but I'm still all over the place.

Parts considered:
Innovate Wideband Kit with gauge
DSMLink
GM MAF
AEM Standalone

Can somebody tell me the best way to go with a combination of those parts. I do know somebody with a dyno and who can tune the AEM, IF I go that route. Or should it be the MAF and DSMLink? Or wideband and Link?

Please help decide on the way to go. You can read my profile for mods, but I think I'm ready to move to this step.

Thanks for the replies in advance.

Erik

 

[DSMNightmare]

If you want user friendly go link and wideband.

 

[daren_p]

If you want user friendly go link and wideband.

I second that AEM standalon is defently not user friendly. DSMLink will do all you want and more & is very user friendly.

 

[graf703]

So, do you always need a laptop running to use dsmlink? Thats something I'm not too sure on.

 

[leet]

The laptop does not need to be connected for the vehicle to operate. You won't get a cool graphic telling you when things are going to explode

 

[danielbui]

Innovate Wideband Kit with gauge
DSMLink
GM MAF go all three if you got the money.

 

[Diplomat]

"Or should it be the MAF and DSMLink?" - Eclipse99GST

I'd go with the GM MAF in a blow through set up regardless of which tuning device you end up using. That way you'll have fewer places to check for boost leaks and it's less restrictive, of course.

 

[sweet97]

I use the GM MAF in a blow thru position with the translator located in the cabin below the radio with an EPROM ECU and DSMchip. Mark

 

[Eclipse99GST]

Isn't it overkill to have the MAF, Link, and the wideband together?

Does anybody like the AEM, or is it because of all those extras you have to get?

I like the MAF because it gets rid of the restrictive MAS, the Link because of it's tuning, and the wideband because of it's tuning. but that just seems a lot to me.

Erik

 

[sweet97]

I forgot to add I use a wideband also. Mark

 

[karbon]

Innovate Wideband Kit with gauge
DSMLink
GM MAF go all three if you got the money.

Exactly what I did and I love it, except I got the TechEdge kit and put it together, saving a ton of money. DSMLink has put cars into the 9s. Do you want to go any faster than that?
Also I'm of the opinion that if you won't be tuning the AEM yourself because you don't have enough knowledge, you shouldn't own one in the first place. You can buy all 3 for less than the price of the EMS anyway.

Isn't it overkill to have the MAF, Link, and the wideband together?

Uhhh, how? DSMLink for tuning/logging, wideband for a linear A/F ratio, and an MAF to help decrease spool-up time of larger turbos and nearly eradicate MAS overrun. The MAF isn't really needed, and DSMLink + wideband make a combo that makes it absurdly easy to tune your car.

 

[daren_p]

Isn't it overkill to have the MAF, Link, and the wideband together?

Does anybody like the AEM, or is it because of all those extras you have to get?

I like the MAF because it gets rid of the restrictive MAS, the Link because of it's tuning, and the wideband because of it's tuning. but that just seems a lot to me.

Erik

I'm sure there are alot of guys that like the AEM, but you have to remember this is a complete stand alone. This isn't a system for the daily driver, unless you know alot about tunning and have alot of time & money to set it up properly. Like has been said guys have gone 9's with DSMLink which is probably good for most people. I believe the AEM setup is about 4 times as much as DSMLink and then you'll spend a tonn more on tunning it. DSMLink was designed to be very user friendly even for the first time tunner and was designed so that it would have all the requirements for about 95%+ of the DSM community.

You only need the dsmlink to start with, since it monitors/logs knock and comes with a tunning manual that gives you values to get your air/fuel ratio in tune. Then you can add the wideband to get an even better tune & finally the MAF to get ride of the MAS. You said you think that seems like alot, is that alot of parts or alot of money? If you ment money then you defently don't want to think about the AEM.

 

[Eclipse99GST]

No, I meant it seems like a lot of parts compared to getting just the AEM. But, it does sound good and it seems like people have actually tried all three instruments together.

Erik

 

[gsxclusive]

I know I may offend a lot devout of dsmlinkers, but you should really take a look at ECU + considering everything you want to use. It is extremely user friendly and you don't need to get an eprom ecu (saving you about $150) and get it programed for injector size. With ECU + you can simply select your injector size and go. If you decide to swap some larger or smaller ones out you don't have to send in your eprom and have it re-programed(additional cost savings), you simply select the new value.

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong guys, that one of the advantages dsmlink had to ECU + was the ability to detect knock (Notice the past tense) the next gen ECU +, expected to ready as soon as early July, will have the ability to detect knock (from the posts I've read) Besides, I can already detect knock. ECU + gives you these beautiful graphs that allow you to trace, as you trace them, they tell you every thing that's happening in the engine. If you're excelerating, rpms increasing, and your timing drastically drops, knock has been detected. Your ecu retards it in attempt to reduce knock.

regarding tunability, how does every 250 rpms look:

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http://www.ecuplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
This post shows the screen shot of the fuel map table above and discuses knock feature.

You can also record simulated dynno and 1/4 mile graphs.

Regarding the GM Maft, the next gen will eliminate the need to spend another $200 for a translator. This is kick "A" and I'm waiting for the next gen to upgrade to a Gm maft myself.

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http://www.ecuplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=105&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75
this post shows the above screen shot and discusses GM maft.

speaking of upgrades Tom, the creator has stated that existing customers will be able to trade in their 1st gen ECU+ and get the next gen for just a few more bucks, not having to pay for the whole thing and software up-grades that will have additional opptions will always be free.

As far as Wideband, it has an option to plug those in as well.


I looked at dsmlink alot and believe its a solid system, but considering I drive a 2nd gen I originally opted for ECU + because I didn't want to mess around with buying an eprom ecu and getting the eprom programed for injector size paying additional cost.

Now, I couldn't be more stoked. I've found Tom (the creator) to be totally dedicated to craming more options in and considers the over all picture of a dsm user (GM maft is a perfect example).

I suggest going to the post and following along with the updates. there's simply too much to discuse here.
http://www.ecuplus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=105

you should also go to the ECU+ page
http://www.ecuplus.com/
most of the info there is regarding the 1st gen as the 2nd isn't quite ready yet, but you can get the most recent updates on the post link above. Tom post about twice a week.

 

[daren_p]

I looked at ecu+ before I purchase DSMLink & descided to go with link. At the time ecu+ didn't have the ability to monitor knock, you are not able to log your fuel trims, there is no setting for dead time so larger injectors can't be tuned as well. The plug & play version of ecu+ was ~$550 & is still a piggy back system & for $560 you can get dsmlink. Other nice features that dsmlink has is studder box, antilag, no lift to shift, flashes check engine light when user selectable knock or engine temp gets to high etc. etc.

As for having to buy so many parts I believe you need to purchase even more parts with the AEM unit, you will still need a wideband plus what ever it uses for measuring airflow etc.

 

[highintenzity4]

Hey is there any point to me spending cash on a wideband o2 if the local dyno here is pretty good. I get pretty good deals. 5 runs for 40 bux. Not sure yet if I should buy the wideband?

 

[Volume Eight]

Id love to hear some more debates between ecu+ and dsmlink, is there anyone else out there using ecu+, and what are some more opinions on the pros/cons of each? This is a good thread about engine manangement, i look forward to seeing more.

Peace

 

[gamingguru]

I got an EMS and I love the thing. I think that it is defective because I have to set the O2 gain to like .865 to get the voltage to be right, but the car isnt running right now so I'm not all that concerned about it. If you need any questions answered about it let me know. It is really the king of engine management unless you would like and go out and get the new FAST engine managment set up.

 

[tlcoll1]

Hey is there any point to me spending cash on a wideband o2 if the local dyno here is pretty good. I get pretty good deals. 5 runs for 40 bux. Not sure yet if I should buy the wideband?

The wideband is pretty handy when doing street tuning or if you don't have the easy access to a dyno. Some of the better engine management systems can log your AFR when using a wideband kit, or sometimes the wideband will let you log the AFRs itself. Makes repeatable tuning a lot easier. Additionally, some of the widebands have full-time display of AFR, so you can see when you're running lean.

Tom

 

[98eclipseRS]

Does anybody like the AEM, or is it because of all those extras you have to get?

I have aem and it is everythign I expected and more. It has quite the hefty pricetag however because not only do you have to buy the ecu itself but then you have to buy all the sensors as well. To me though it is totally worth it, I have ems wtih the eugo wideband that plugs directly into the ecu itself and everything works flawlessly. Its not the most user friendly but if you have someone local that could tune you I would for sure go with aem. Some great features it has that work wonders with fwd, is the fact that you can set your boost to be speed dependant(you have to purchase a gm boost seloniod aswell but it works) so you could have your boost rise progressivly throughout every gear for a smoother power transition when making large hp numbers. For us fwd guys you can also set up a traction control system that keeps traction buy a number of ways(pull timming, cut fuel, cut spark, etc...). The system continously amazes me with the new things I find out it is capable of doing every day. Since I have a lightwieght flywheel and 272 front and back I had a hard time keeping the car wanting to run when comming from 4k plus to nuetral, with ems I set my idle to 800rpm and 1k rpm when above any speed greater than 3mph. Its great never dies and holds 800rpm so perfectly its better than stock.

 

[Eclipse99GST]

Thanks everybody for the replies. Still don't know yet, everybody's argument sounds good. Just gonna take some more thinking I guess.

Thanks for the help

Erik

 

[karbon]

I don't personally have anything against the ECU+. It's a good package, it's just that for the price you're not really getting as much as you should. If you purchase the ability to make it plug and play as DSMLink is, it's $10 more than DSMLink (although you still have to buy the EPROM).
There's also quite a bit of misinformation in the "compare" section of ECU+'s site. e.g. DSMLink IS availble for GVR4 and 1G DSMs now, plus the palm software IS unofficially supported, but Hal is very active in the forums and can answer any questions you have about it (although it's straightforward and has good documentation). I'm not sure where they got the figure of "20x or less", but to get down to 20CPS, you'd have to be logging 15 different RAW values in the ECU, and that's a hell of a lot. Most of the everyday values logged in DSMLink are extrapolated from the raw values, which means that you can actually get many many more variables logged based on only a few raw values logged.

Regarding the GM Maft, the next gen will eliminate the need to spend another $200 for a translator.

DSMLink's next major upgrade will have this as well, and if the change only requires a software upgrade, it is always free of charge.
Add to that these abilities:
VE calculation for overrun MAFs
automatic operation of fuel and nitrous solenoids for nitrous control
show tps/battery voltage/real boost (using GM MAP)/STFT, LTFT/knock on the stock boost gauge
phantom knock elimination
viewable OBD-II component readiness
3-step or 2-step stutterbox
viewing/clearing/disabling certain DTCs
coolant temp and knock-based CELs
simulate idle switch
antilag
It's all in how much you want to spend. Obviously the absolute best package is the EMS, but I didn't have the extra $900 laying around over what I was already willing to spend for an engine management solution.
As far as the cons of DSMLink, there are some things I'd like to see in it, but the developers are continuously adding items and the software is updated every few months with more features. The update to-do list has some really hefty features, including full-time speed density and full boost control. The next update will also have a memory board so that you don't lose your custom settings when you disconnect the battery (my only gripe)

 

[tlcoll1]

There's also quite a bit of misinformation in the "compare" section of ECU+'s site. (Unwillingness to update the site reflects pretty poorly.) e.g. DSMLink IS availble for GVR4 and 1G DSMs now

Ok. I haven't looked at the DSMlink web site in a while, and will fix that in the next web site update. (I don't spend much time tracking changes in other peoples' products.)

and the datalogging rate is WAY faster

Do you have a URL that says this? 20 frames of data per second is what I read.

plus the palm software IS unofficially supperted

I get lots of flack over this - what's a better way to state the fact that with the ECU+, the Palm software is a core part of what you get. I maintain it, and it's always in sync with the Windows software. Maybe better to call the 'link Palm software "aftermarket?"

I'm not sure where they got the figure of "20x or less", but to get down to 20CPS, you'd have to be logging 15 different RAW values in the ECU, and that's a hell of a lot. Most of the everyday values logged in DSMLink are extrapolated from the raw values, which means that you can actually get many many more variables logged based on only a few raw values logged.

How can I represent this? With the ECU+, you get everything logged at 25x, always. The rate doesn't drop off as you add more "stuff" to the log - everything is always there. So if you make a run, and decide later that you need to know (for example) the air temperature, it's there. You didn't need to hope that you picked that as something that you wanted logged.

Not bad, but not as good as every 40-50 RPMs

Again, do you have a URL? From what I see in the publicly-available manual, fuel and timing adjustments are every 500 RPM.

Tom

 

[gsxclusive]

Not bad, but not as good as every 40-50 RPMs (Take that 25x vs. the 20x of DSMLink )

Not to be confrontageous but this looks a lot more like every 500 RPMs.

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I don't see how you can set it for different loads i.e. low vs. WOT. Does DSMlink give you this option(honest question)? I like having the ability to adjust my fuel for the daily drive and at the same time have it already set for WOT when the occasional opportunity meets me at the red light. Besides, the ECU + interpolates the percentages between settings so if you look at it that way, you could consider it tuning even inbetween the 250s. I assume dsmlink and other management systems do the same. Is this how you are figuring every 40 - 50 RPMs or is this Image from dsmlink.com "outdated"?

DSMLink's next major upgrade will have this as well, and if the change only requires a software upgrade, it is always free of charge.
Add to that these abilities:
VE calculation for overrun MAFs
automatic operation of fuel and nitrous solenoids for nitrous control
show tps/battery voltage/real boost (using GM MAP)/STFT, LTFT/knock on the stock boost gauge
phantom knock elimination
viewable OBD-II component readiness
3-step or 2-step stutterbox
viewing/clearing/disabling certain DTCs
coolant temp and knock-based CELs
simulate idle switch
antilag

Sweet!!

Everyone who watches update posts on the ECU+ website knows Tom is up to many upgrades as well. But he's not about to let everything out of the bag until it's done and available, which I think is to his advantage.

It's all in how much you want to spend. Obviously the absolute best package is the EMS

If you consider options and you really know your stuff, yes. But for the daily drive looking for a user friendly system, who doesn't want to risk blowing up their engine, I might have to disagree with you, even if cost were the same.

As far as the cons of DSMLink, there are some things I'd like to see in it, . .

Let's be honest. . . as long as we are learning and modifying our cars, there will always be a few more things we would like to see. I'm just greatful that there are some DSMers out there with the engineering know how ambitious enough to persue our endless mountian of request.

 

[karbon]

Not to be confrontageous but this looks a lot more like every 500 RPMs.
[picture]

Sorry about that, I thought you were talking about the logging data rate.
You're correct, too. You can not tune between different loads in DSMLink explicitly, but it's done implicitly through a combination of the RPM based fuel and timing sliders, and the airflow based airflow sliders (although I tune almost solely by airflow and have a pretty good tune currently). The sliders in ECU+ are every 1000 RPMs, but like you said, it linearly interpolates between loads and key levels, so it's pretty smooth. The corrections in DSMLink also linearly interpolate, as they do for the SAFC as well.
ECU+ looks like it'll be a pretty solid package for 2Gs once they get the knock ability down, personally that's what I'd miss the most. It's not that hard to figure timing retard due to knock out of your timing curve though, so it's not essential, just makes things VERY easy.

Do you have a URL that says this? 20 frames of data per second is what I read.

I can't find it right now, but the DSMLink site used to claim a datarate of 300 samples per second. This is probably an estimate, but I can't find it. I can't even find where it says that it's 20 for that matter, and I've scoured the main site and forums.
I didn't mean to sound like I was making a flame post. Don't want to start a war. Good information as to how these solutions compare is what we need.