Had SAFC problems...now i have more =) Need suggestions.

[lasvegastalon]

Ok guys... am i missing something int his equation?

Before I added on this stuff the car had idle surge (cleaned the TB, checked the ISC, checked the TPS, prayed, checked the BISSS, finally paid a witch doctor to cleanse the car of bad spirits....still nothing) AND it would knock on the high end.

Probably should of fixed that stuff before adding the rest, but anyways, this is what i added...

SAFC
Joe. P. Pro-Z MBC
PTE 680CC Injectors

and then after some research started adjusting the SAFC. I don't have a wideband (i know i know =), but i do have a datalogger (i use mmcd on it) and was going to try to just get it close with that (well, as close as possible at lease). Well, after adjustments, took it for a spin, it made it down 2 blocks and then i lost 95% of my power. Felt like it wanted to die everytime i touched the gas... started knocking if i gassed it... felt like i was running REALLY rich (i think it was the smell of GAS coming out of the exaust that lead me to believe that =) No matter what i did to it i couldn't adjust it back to get me home.

My questions is... am i missing supporting mods to be able to run on this setup? (its a 16g btw), and, anyone know what i can do to get my car back to working order (i've tried looking for the "Dummies Guide to SAFC" but haven't found one yet. =( ). Thanks in advance guys.

 

[1990talon]

sounds like you have a boost leak to me. Check that then update.

 

[lasvegastalon]

Well...let me elaborate a bit. I did all this work to the car execpt for the injectors... didn't jack with the SAFC yet. Drove it 22 miles and went to sleep. The next day drove it back to my house (another 22 miles) but on my way there i played with the mbc a bit, then left it at 10psi, and got it home. Now, at this point it was ok other than the idle surge and low knock (peaked at 8). Then, that night i installed the injectors, and tried programing the SAFC (actually got the settings right this time, I THINK...can't think of any other reason why it wouldn't do anything the night before on the drive home, but the next night it did), and THEN is when i lost all power.

does that paint a clearer picture?

(and i will do a leak test btw =)

 

[Gromit]

Ok guys... am i missing something int his equation?

Before I added on this stuff the car had idle surge (cleaned the TB, checked the ISC, checked the TPS, prayed, checked the BISSS, finally paid a witch doctor to cleanse the car of bad spirits....still nothing) AND it would knock on the high end.

Probably should of fixed that stuff before adding the rest, but anyways, this is what i added...

SAFC
Joe. P. Pro-Z MBC
PTE 680CC Injectors

and then after some research started adjusting the SAFC. I don't have a wideband (i know i know =), but i do have a datalogger (i use mmcd on it) and was going to try to just get it close with that (well, as close as possible at lease). Well, after adjustments, took it for a spin, it made it down 2 blocks and then i lost 95% of my power. Felt like it wanted to die everytime i touched the gas... started knocking if i gassed it... felt like i was running REALLY rich (i think it was the smell of GAS coming out of the exaust that lead me to believe that =) No matter what i did to it i couldn't adjust it back to get me home.

My questions is... am i missing supporting mods to be able to run on this setup? (its a 16g btw), and, anyone know what i can do to get my car back to working order (i've tried looking for the "Dummies Guide to SAFC" but haven't found one yet. =( ). Thanks in advance guys.

First things first, do a boost leak test as 1990talon suggested. Check out www.vfaq.com for info on how to make a tester & how to do the test if you've never done it before. On a 15 yr. old car you are almost guaranteed to find leaks. Fix them all before moving on to tuning.

Here's some info on how the SAFC works:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105569


And here's some info on how to tune with it:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58403

This should get you going in the right direction. Are you still on the stock fuel pump? Rewired? You may need to upgrade with those bigger injectors. And you may have some difficulty tuning those 680's with just the SAFC.

Once you're ready to tune, set the boost to a moderate amount & do a 3rd gear pull from roughly 2.5k - redline. Log it & post the results.

 

[Charlie90GST]

Also, are you using the stock intercooler piping? If so you're gonna need to upgrade that as well, you might also wanna think about getting a MAF-T and a GM maf to increase the airflow. With injectors that big you will run way too rich on the stock air system, and you are gonna probably have to replace those fuel-fouled plugs as well. And as Gromit said you really need to think about a better fuel pump and maybe a bolt on fuel pressure regulator. Of course you might want to think about ditching the safc and get a gen2 Maft, it is supposed to be better than the safc for tuning, check full throttle speed, they are a vendor for this site and they had a deal on the gen2 not too long ago.

 

[chicagoavenger]

Dumb q but you did check to see that maybe a licp didn't pop off or something? Or a wire on your afc came loose?

 

[lasvegastalon]

Alright... guys... help me out with my set up a bit. What would i need to get to make the car run right (and be able to tune it right)...well...as right as can be without a DSMLINK. As much feed back would be GREATLY appreciate it... i'm just going to go for broke, buy what i need, and get it done.

I have a FPR to go in, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Greddy BOV (knock off...will replace the diaphram when it goes...still need the flange).

Can you guys direct me in what tuning system to go for? Get rid of the SAFC and go Gen2 Maft with a wideband o2? or stick with the SAFC and get a MAFT kit (with the 3in GM) to tune? Other options?

Also, what size IC to go for this set up? I don't plan on upgrading any further than what i have.

anything else you guys can think of? (other than the fuel pump)

Thanks in advance guys.

Oh...almost forgot... how do i get my car back to where it was? I mean, i take out the injectors and safc...do i have to do anything to the ecu to let it know to go back to its old a/f ratio?

 

[spyderturbo007]

You can tune 680cc injectors with the SAFC and only have minimal problems, if any. Both CanadianTsi and myself run 650cc injectors with a SAFC and have no problem.

If you were running the SAFC with 680cc injectors and no correction, you were running horribly rich. I can't even imagine what your AFR was. That means that your plugs are now fouled. Go get some new plugs (NGK's), one range colder than stock. Gap them to 0.026 - 0.028" and throw them in.

Then, read the links that Gromit posted two times and post back with any questions before running the car. That way you don't accidently foul your plugs again.

 

[Gromit]

Oh...almost forgot... how do i get my car back to where it was? I mean, i take out the injectors and safc...do i have to do anything to the ecu to let it know to go back to its old a/f ratio?

Put the stock injectors back in, zero out the SAFC, & make sure your B16G is at or below stock boost levels. The ECU never knew you had 680's in, anyway. As long as you've got the stock injectors & you don't alter the airflow signal with the SAFC it'll run pretty much like stock. After making these changes, it is really in your best interest to do a boost leak test & fix any leaks before putting on a bunch of new parts.

As for the best tuning set-up for your needs, 1st you need to establish a goal for the car. From what I have read, the main benefit to the 3in GM MAF is that it allows you to run a blow-through set-up to vent your BOV. If you don't plan to vent, there are other easier MAF upgrades available like the 2G or 3G MAF that'll get you plenty of airflow compared to the stock 1G MAF. As mentioned previously, you may have difficulty tuning 680's with a SAFC - they have a baseline correction of -34% & the most the SAFC can alter the signal is 50% in either direction. With this much altered airflow signal, the ECU tends to use a lower map & adds timing, often resulting in a lot of knock (the 1G's already have a slightly more aggressive timing map than the 2G's). If you have an EPROM ECU, a custom chip can compensate for whatever injectors & MAF you are using, virtually eliminating the need for a SAFC (can still keep it for fine tuning).

Have you looked at the Tech Guide on this site? There is an upgrade path you can check out & decide what you need based on your goals for the car.

 

[lasvegastalon]

thanks alot for the input guys. I'm going to take her back to stock an run those tests, make sure the cars running the way it's suppose to, post any questions, and then upgrade from there. Really appreciate the help.

I'm looking to put over 300 to the ground btw.

 

[Gromit]

thanks alot for the input guys. I'm going to take her back to stock an run those tests, make sure the cars running the way it's suppose to, post any questions, and then upgrade from there. Really appreciate the help.

I'm looking to put over 300 to the ground btw.

Excellent plan Basic maintenance 1st, then upgrades. In the long run, you'll be much happier, better able to achieve the results you want, & less likely to waste money on parts that don't really fit your goals.

 

[lasvegastalon]

I replaced the plugs, went back to the stock injectors (replaced the grommit, o-ring, and insulator on each),went all zeros on the SAFC, and installed a Greddy Type-S BOV (cheap knock off...i'll replace the diaphram when that time comes =).

After that i did a boostleak test. Found one on the FPR vacuum line. Replaced, and continued (used a compressor to go to 15psi). Couldn't find any other leaks (and on this note, even though you don't find any leaks, the pressure should still go down on it's own right? I mean, SLOWLY, but on its own. if not, then i guess i have leaks i couldn't hear....but at any case it was doing a LOT better than where it was before [when it actually ran] It used to have a TurboX BOV and it leaked heavily).

So, not thinking that i had any other questions to ask yet, i turned on the car. Was find (it seemed) for a few moments (10 sec.), and then went on to sounding as bad as it did when i had the other injectors in. (now, a little more background. When those other injectors were in and it crapped out on me about .25 miles away from my house. So, i rode the clutch and gas to make it back home. It was running CRAZY rich for a good 10 to 20 minutes....does that do any damage other than to your plugs?)

So, turned the car off, checked the plugs, and they were fouled again (the richest black i think i've ever seen). Now, i couldn't think i was running very rich since it was the stock injectors and my SAFC was zeros, and my air ways weren't plugged up, so i should of been getting enought air. So i pulled out a can of mopar combustion chamber cleaner, grabed the breather hose (please tell me that is the one that seems to be comming out of the front middle of....can't think of the name, but it's what your TB is attached to and has ECI eched on the top) and sprayed some in there a little bit at a time. That didn't seem to help too much (probablly cause my plugs were already fouled again.. i don't know).

So, this is the last think i did before calling it a night. Took out all the plugs, and sprayed a can of Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner evenly in all cylinders. Which leads me to another questions. Seems like the engine was still a bit hot, cause after i sprayed the cleaner in, one of the cylinders started smoking a bit. Would this do any damage?

Sorry for it being so long...just wanted to make sure it was detailed. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Gabriel

 

[lasvegastalon]

Any input guys?

 

[spyderturbo007]

The smoking was most likely the cleaner burning off, nothing to worry about. Let me see if I have this straight.

1. Swapping the injectors didn't help.
2. Leak check has been done.

I'm guessing that your CEL isn't on since you haven't said anything? Also, did you disconnect the battery when you replaced the injectors?

Try this....Unhook your negative terminal and let the ECU reset. Hook up your logger and set it up to log almost every parameter, such as IAT, coolant temp, rpm, all FT's, airflow, timing, etc. Just sit at idle and wait until the car warms up, cycles the fans one time and then post the log.

Oh, wait, hang on......Have you pulled your ECU and checked out the board???? <----do this first.