Go stroker or not???

[GSEclipse620]

I am currently in the beggining stages of rebuilding my 1g n/t talon. I am about to pull the motor to get it ready for machining. But I honestly can't decide for myself whether to stroke it ( haha,, srry, had too) or stay 2.0 and just would like to hear everyones opinions on the matter.

Stroker:
Pros: More displacement/ better spool time (anyone know of how much better approx) comes with forged rods, 2.4 crank, 8.8 pistons

Cons: More stress on crank, ALOT more cash($1200), More machine work needed on block, I'd still have to go and get my gaskets, hardware, belts seperate.

2.0 :
Pros: SBR sells a rebuild kit for $500 that includes pistons/gaskets/belts ect. less machining needed on block/ Less stress on crank.

Cons: no torqe

So there it is. I believe if I stayed 2.0 and just did a general rebuild I'd be able to get my car on the road a lot faster. The reason I was considering going stroker in the first place was because I thought I would have to replace all of the internals anyways, but now I know that the n/t 4g63 rods are the same as the turbos. If I replaced the pistons do you think that the rods/crank could withstand probably about 350 hp? I plan on doing the supporting mods, like exhaust (3")/fuel setup(255 w/ 650cc) and tuning with Maf-T and an S-Afc. And my projected turbo at this point is the EvoIII. Thanks for the Input!

 

[TwoLiterLaser]

If this is your first rebuild, stick with the 2.0. I have no clue how the non-turbo bottom end would handle the boost, even with the different pistons. When I did what you are doing, I got an entire turbo engine and played with that.

 

[GSEclipse620]

Yeah, I think I might go that route because It'll end up getting my car on the road a lot faster than if I decided to go stroker. I THINK the bottem end will be fine, I've heard that it has the same crank/rods as the turbo motors, can anybody confirm this?

 

[phillabaum03]

From what i know they are the same but the NT dont have the oil squirters. I could be totally wrong here tho. I dont know much about the NT 1g motors. I just thought i read that.

 

[gridlyne]

I would stick with the 2.0, your FWD right? Whats the point of going through all that trouble building a powerful and massively expensive stroker when you wont be able to put all that power to the ground as effectively as you would in an AWD. I would say, take that money that you would have spent on the stroker and buy an AWD shell. Build a nice 2.0 and go grape-ape on it. You will be glad you did and believe me, the car will be powerful. the 2.0 has more than enough power.

 

[GSEclipse620]

Haha, I wish I could afford to build a whole car from the ground up man but,,,,,, i make uhh,,, min. wage. Sooooo skrew that. But that is a good pt, I didn't think too much about how little I would be able to utalize that power. I think I'm just going to build a good ol' 2.0! Thanks for the Input everybody!

 

[andymoraitis]

If you want a more enjoyable car for the street that will spool a turbo more quickly, look into a 9.0 compression 2.0 rebuild. The stroker will be tough on traction and better suited to an AWD unless you had a very large and laggy turbo hooked up to it.

Have fun,

Andy

 

[GSEclipse620]

Wouldn't the higher compression limit my psi that I could run? I know it gives you more hp but would I be able to acheive the same hp numbers running (pulling numbers out of my a$$ now) 10 psi at 9.0:1 compression as I would at 20psi at 8.0:1. How much harder would it be to tune for knock with the added compression?

 

[andymoraitis]

That's a very good point, but it depends on what turbo you'll be installing and what your intentions are. While it's true that lower compression will allow for higher boost levels on pump gas before running into knock, a motor with higher compression is much more streetable as a result of the torque increase and faster spool.

Having just converted from a 2.0 to an 8.8:1 2.3 stroker, I agree that the stroker is more sensitive to the state of tune and is harder to work with (knock-wise), but it's infinitely more fun to drive on the street where I do 99.9% of my driving. If I had the choice between running 8.8:1 at 20psi or 7.5:1 at 25psi, I'd still run higher compression and less boost as it's simply more fun.

Keep another thing in mind. Your turbo selection will have a big influence on how much heat the motor makes. Small turbo inlet covers create more friction as they spool the compressor wheel and this in turn generates heat. Run something with a 3" cover (20G, FP Green, SBR G-50, etc.) with a good front mount and 9:1 will be fine and more enjoyable. Just don't expect to run heavy boost with high compression on a setup like mine that makes gobs of heat.

Be smart about it and you'll enjoy the experience.

Andy

 

[RyanJ]

Yeah stick with the higher compression and a smaller turbo and less boost. You'll still be able to pull some decent horse power, you'll spool quicker too. Also with the stroker, think about the integrity of the engine. Making more room for a large volume of air and fuel means thinner walls in you compression chamber and a better chance of breaking it. Granted not much but its something to consider.

 

[GSEclipse620]

If I was running 9:1 compression what would be a realistic goal for max hp. When I started researching how to build my motor I was aiming to make 350-400 hp, But now I'm starting to think that this route will be far more fun in the end. Would an EvoIII be to big or would I want to go with a 14b?

 

[RyanJ]

I don't know much about turbos and spooling time and so forth, since I'm n/t and all, but I would say that a 16g should be sufficient for your goals. My friends gst is at about 350whp right now with his hahn super 16g and that thing spools pretty well. I would say go with that over the 14b. You're not gonna get to the 350-400whp range with a stock turbo.

 

[andymoraitis]

Yeah stick with the higher compression and a smaller turbo and less boost. You'll still be able to pull some decent horse power, you'll spool quicker too. Also with the stroker, think about the integrity of the engine. Making more room for a large volume of air and fuel means thinner walls in you compression chamber and a better chance of breaking it. Granted not much but its something to consider.

Sorry, but this is way off. The displacement on a stroker isn't gained from a huge overbore. As a matter of fact, most are bored .020 to .040 over with plenty of tolerance on the cylinder walls. Since the crank is from a 4G64, the displacement comes from the stroke and that's why stroker pistons are needed.

If I was running 9:1 compression what would be a realistic goal for max hp. When I started researching how to build my motor I was aiming to make 350-400 hp, But now I'm starting to think that this route will be far more fun in the end. Would an EvoIII be to big or would I want to go with a 14b?

If this was my car, I'd want a turbo that had a fairly large compressor cover on it to generate less heat and friction as I mentioned earlier. An excellent turbo that will help you realize your goal would be any of the following:

1. 20G with 3" inlet (SBR/Hahn/FP)
2. FP Green (Garrett/Mitsu Hybrid)
3. Bullseye 50 Trim or SBR G-50

There are plenty of others, but these are the ones I'd pick if those are my goals. Come to think of it, those ARE my goals so I'll likely be going with the 3" 20G or the FP Green. Remember that you'll need to run a smaller turbo like an EVO III at fairly high boost to generate 400 to the wheel. Yes. it's been done, but it would be a better idea to have a larger turbo that will do it with greater ease while making less heat in the process. This will allow for moost boost and timing on pump gas due to a cooler intake charge. I have a small turbo on a stroker right now and I can guarantee that while the spool is plenty of fun, the heat this thing makes is a pain to tune around.

Let me know if that makes sense.

 

[GSEclipse620]

Yeah,,, my original goals were 350-400 which the EvoII would've probably fit perfectly. I'm not sure about my max hp potential with the high comp. since I will pretty much just be on pump gas. I am now considering a quick spooling turbo that might only get me to the 200-250 mark, but be fully streetable and funner to drive around.

Can anybody recomend some turbos to get me started? I've tried reading through pages that explain turbos, but sadley usually about halfway through the page marked "advanced" (when they start pulling out all the formulas) I just can't keep up with it all.Thanks for the Input!

 

[andymoraitis]

Yeah,,, my original goals were 350-400 which the EvoII would've probably fit perfectly. I'm not sure about my max hp potential with the high comp. since I will pretty much just be on pump gas. I am now considering a quick spooling turbo that might only get me to the 200-250 mark, but be fully streetable and funner to drive around.

Can anybody recomend some turbos to get me started? I've tried reading through pages that explain turbos, but sadley usually about halfway through the page marked "advanced" (when they start pulling out all the formulas) I just can't keep up with it all.Thanks for the Input!

Relax. With the list above, you can still meet your goals without too much fuss on pump gas. Run slightly lowewr timing and more boost and you'll be good to go. There's no need to drop your horsepower expectations by 100hp simply because of increased compression.

 

[GSEclipse620]

I just don't have any reference numbers to go by since this is my first time dealing with a turbo charged car. I honestly don't know what kind of hp numbers to expect from the increased compression. So you think I can still hit the 375ish area? This is going to be my first experience with any kind of tuning as well. Would I be able to tune with a Maf-T/ S-afc/ and a data logger or would I need anything else? What do you mean by timing? Is that refering to cams or ignition timing?

EDIT: I just saw the post you did this morning, you put that up as I was typing my last post. If I put a one of those bigger turbos on my car what would my spool time be? Having a little turbo and having spool from idle or a little higher is starting to sound good to me evan if I have to sacrafice top end. If I was to get a 14b sized turbo how much hp is that cabable of and still be in a good effiency range w/o generating too much heat? If i was to get one of those bigger turbos what would I have for an approxamate spool time? Is there such a thing as a cheap ball bearing turbo?

 

[andymoraitis]

In looking at what you want, there have to be trade-offs somewhere as there no "one size fits all" solution. With higher compression on a larger turbo, spool will not be as much of an issue as it would on a 7.5:1 or even 8:1 motor. Throw the horsepower goals out the window since you'll be able to reach those with any turbo at or beyond the level of an EVO III. The point I'm making is that with a 9:1 motor, you'll want a slightly larger compressor cover. A 14B or 16G variant is sized fairly tight between the wheel and the cover. You'll want something larger simply because it will make less heat and have more pull on the top end.

In addition, smaller turbos hit hard and since you're FWD, this is NOT something that you want. A properly prepared 9:1 motor that can spin to 7500-7800 RPM with the right set of cams and the right turbo will make a slightly later spool a moot issue. Of all the turbos I listed above, a Bullseye 50 trim would be perfect for what you're trying to do. SBR has these on sale and you can save a pretty penny on something that will run very well on pump gas and still not make tons of heat since the compressor covers are larger and will allow for less friction in the airflow.

For tuning, I think the AFC is a flaming piece of garbage. It's like trying to hammer a nail with a tree stump as a result of subtracted airflow skewing the timing maps. For full control, get yourself an EPROM ECU and DSM Link. You'll be able to control timing, air/fuel and a host of other features that make it the next best thing to a full standalone.

Your goals aren't that hard to achieve. Just don't paint yourself into a corner by overthinking it.

 

[Dark_Horse]

If i was to get one of those bigger turbos what would I have for an approxamate spool time? Is there such a thing as a cheap ball bearing turbo?

There is no such thing as a cheap ball bearing turbo (unless you get it used which is risky). Expect to pay over $1,000 for new one. And since your FWD, unless you're going with a very big turbo, there's no point in having BB anyway. Use the few hundred you'll save over a BB turbo and get a set of cams.

Every turbo that andymoraitis listed above will spool before 4,000rpm on a 2.0l...And every one will get you to the 350 - 400whp mark.

IMO turbo lag isn't a bad thing at all...especially on FWD. It's just a trade-off. Later spool for more top end power. It all depends on how high you want to rev and where in the rpm-band you want to make the power.

 

[GSEclipse620]

Thanks Alot man , I've gotten what I wanted out of this thread. Any other questions I have are either not related to the original topic or I intend to search for. But you gave me a lot of good info .

 

[ilikespeeding]

I thought the 1G N/T was 1.8?

 

[RyanJ]

gs = 2.0
rs = 1.8

if I'm not mistaken

 

[GSEclipse620]

This is an Eagle, so I believe that the 1.8 is the DL.

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

I think one thing people are NOT keeping in mind is the fact that this person told us he makes MINIMUM WAGE!

Tha being the case, you are looking at a rebuild of either stock compression, or 2G pistons (8.5:1) and running the EVO3 16 turbo.

With that setup you can realistically excpect to hit in the 300-350 HP range. 400 is unlikely unless you spend quite a bit of time and money on porting, and get to be an expert tuner.

Set realisitc goals.....

 

[Spoolin4Ever]

gs = 2.0
rs = 1.8

if I'm not mistaken

Actually in an eclipse:
Base=1.8
GS=1.8
GS DOHC 16V=2.0

Talon:
DL=1.8
ES=2.0

Anway this person has a 2.0 so it doesn't matter. That is we're hoping he knows which engine he has anyway

 

[nightspeed87]

Not to be a baerer of bad news but, well doesnt it say he has a 95.... therefore that would be a 420a motor.....! So if thats so were all talking about 4g63 and he really has a chrysler motor so everything said would have to be scraped because the two engines are different and def as far as what they can handle.... 1gs only have 4g63 n/ts and 95 was 1st yr of 2g. But just say it is a 4g63 or whatever, or perhaps hes talking about a different dsm he owns, with his money range 9:1 compression Id think would be a little risky because if he ever starts knocking or whatever he could easy crack piston rings and eventually start having compression problems, I think he shouldnt go higher than 2g piston comp... Also I dont know about strokers increasing spool time but would be a waste of a lot of money for what hes going for because he can make those hp numbers without stroker, and like said its harder to tune.... Also I think turbo lag is a good thing if your not like an autox driver or somethnig because on a fwd at those power levels he would be braking stuff and burning out tires... ( remember he said minimum wage, oh and you still have to have good brakes, suspension, etc its not all about speed... ) and in a fwd he should be focasing on top end power because without lsd and expensive tires and suspension work hes just going to spin up a storm... Besides I see it as turbo lag equals better launches, and better gas milage in non spirited city driving. Just my 2 cents.