extrude honed...

[definitiveno]

I talked with my builder and he said he can offer either process. I need to know what will work the best for my application. Car is completely built, tubular/SMIM, dsmlink, gt35r, DV/DTFAB intercooler, forged rotating assembly, fp3 cams/dual valve spring/1mm over..........stuff.

My goal is to build a high revving pump gas car, not looking for max power but an extremely long power band. I only plan on running 20lbs or so (knock permitting), hoping to make 400-450 and hold onto as much power and torque as possible. Ideally, I would like to make 450 up to 9k and or beyond. I know this goal is not traditional for a dsm build, but being the designer and sponsor of the car, I just want it this way and thats why.

Head guru's, help me figure out what port/bowl/chamber design and production process will be most effective. Bring the tech.......



(reaches for aspirin bottle)

 

[01QuadDak]

Disclaimer---*not a wiseman*
Comparing e-hone to a full CNC port is apples to oranges. To get a good comparison it would have to be hand port vs. CNC.
CNC porting involves a 3 axis mill, and a pre-set program to port the heads, the tolerances are usually tight, and almost every head will be the same.
Hand port is as describe, a skilled individual will go into the head with a grinder, and massage the ports till he/she is satisfied. After a good result is reached, the porter can measure the dimensions, and even make it a CNC program.
E-Hone is a process where an abrasive slurry is forced through the ported area to smooth out any imperfections, and "blend" the worked/non worked areas together. E-hone helps to promote a smoother airflow into the runners and heads. Basically blends the different areas together.

 

[definitiveno]

Right, so the head design isn't actually altered but I understand they can open up the general diameter of the orifice. And smoothly. My mechanic is trying to sell me on this saying that the 2g head design is already awesome and to just open things up.

 

[dsm dork]

Is this a stroker or a 2.0 and what is the compression ratio?

 

[definitiveno]

It's a 2 liter and 9:1 compression

 

[rampridersrider]

Do not quote me on this as I am not an expert, but I have always been under the impression that the 1g head flowed a lot better than a 2g head. Just by looking at the intake and exhaust port sizes tells me that and I have also read on the forums the same. Just throwing that out there incase you weren't deadset on using a 2g head.

 

[01QuadDak]

E-hone does not really open up the ports, it just smooths out some of the smaller imperfections left behind by porting and casting.
I wouldn't do a e-hone on a head unless you have-
Ported it already and want every posible bit of more power
Requirements in you racing class dictate not much head work.
Lotta money to throw around.
I'd send the head to a REPUTABLE dsm shop or head porter that has worked on several
4G63's, and has also had happy customers several thousand miles down the road.
I have heard the same that the 1g head flows slightly more, but i may be wrong on this one.
A better bang for you buck head wise would be slightly oversize valves, and some mild port work. (You really don't even need a CNC for this)
You will need the additional air-flow rate for higher RPM's, and the potential for more power will be there.
You will easily acheive 450 without e-hone, but port work will make this goal much easier.
Just as an example, I will not be e-honeing the heads nor the intake manifold on my 428 R3 motor for my duster, and i will be making an easy 700hp on pump gas with a fat torque curve, and nice street manners.

 

[DSMunknown]

Do not quote me on this as I am not an expert, but I have always been under the impression that the 1g head flowed a lot better than a 2g head. Just by looking at the intake and exhaust port sizes tells me that and I have also read on the forums the same. Just throwing that out there incase you weren't deadset on using a 2g head.

Ha, I quoted you.

Yes, the 1G flows better than the 2G, but it depends on what one's individual goals are for the car. Here is what I wrote back in February on DSMTalk:

In the July 2005 issue of Modified Mag, in the DSM tuning section, here is what is written:

...[Going] against the grain, we had Headgames Motorworks start with a 2G core because of its advanced design. Now before you fire off that email pointing out that the intake ports on the 1G are bigger, slow ya roll. "I like the 2G head way more for street/race applications," says Dave Localio of Headgames. "Although the exhaust port and combustion chamber are the same, the 1G intake is abnormally large, larger than Chevy small blocks up to 406ci and more suited for monster anti-street turbos." The smaller port will decrease spool time, increase low rpm torque, equating to way more fun on the street and very capable on the strip.

And here is the link to that thread:


http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144534


Of course, some people disagree with this line of thinking, but that's what forums are for. For discussion.

 

[rampridersrider]

Good piece of info. Thanks for the input.

 

[joeracer321]

You have to love the poor responses on these boards. Extrude hone does not simply clean up and smooth the ports. They can remove as much material as you wish without altering the design of the runner.

 

[4SFED4]

The problem I see with Extrude Honing is the fact there is no set area that it will remove material. With a proven design CNC program, material is only removed from specific areas known to improve flow and velocity.
Getting the best cylinder head flow isn't just about making the hole as big as possible.

 

[joeracer321]

The problem I see with Extrude Honing is the fact there is no set area that it will remove material. With a proven design CNC program, material is only removed from specific areas known to improve flow and velocity.
Getting the best cylinder head flow isn't just about making the hole as big as possible.

You are absolutely right that it is not about making the hole bigger, but it is also proven that altering the runner can decrease performance.

 

[4SFED4]

You are absolutely right that it is not about making the hole bigger, but it is also proven that altering the runner can decrease performance.

Knife edging the dividers and removing the relief around the valve guide is altering the runner. Both of those methods have been proven to help performance and every race ported 4G63 head I have ever seen has it done.

 

[Street Surgeon]

FP3 cams on a 2.0?WTF

 

[NewTurboTuner]

Yeah, that's not good.
They let it go for too long. It's been honed so much, the runners got eaten away.

They should give you a new Intake Mani, AND refund your money for the hone process.
Or at least give you what you paid for.... not some botched up hone job.

I was seriously thinking of getting my Int Mani Extrude honed for a stock sleeper. Now after seeing that picture I know its not the best idea......

.....Look at how the 1st runner got ported/honed out more than the 2nd. The 2nd is honed out more than the 3rd. And the 3rd runner is honed more than the 4th. That happens because (just like air) the hone material will take the path of least resistance. So in effect the hone process will actually open-up area's that need it the least, because those area are easiest for the hone material to flow through. At the same time; the area's that need the most porting, and need the most improvement.... get ported/honed the least ....because its harder for the honing material to flow through those areas (just like air). The picture makes it obvious. The 1-2 runner wall was honed out so much that the divider is almost gone. The 2-3 runner wall is half gone, and the 3-4 runner wall is almost intact.

Darn it thats depressing

 

[yokotabrat]

Wow, that looks completely different from my 1g extrudehoned manifold. They definitely screwed something up. If you'd like, I could attach a pic of what mine looks like. Let me know.

 

[SBstar]

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208459&highlight=extrude+honed

There's some pictures of mine done by Buschur Racing. Definately doesn't look like that. I would definately demand that they find you a new intake manifold and redo it correctly. Or at the very least a refund. Sorry about your luck.

 

[jbillakdsm]

I'm sure you guys have heard about this company and their wonderful porting jobs. My question is if I were to set up a meeting with the president of the company would there be enough people interested in getting stuff ported. Also, if I get them to do a couple pieces, say an intake manifold and a 2g exhaust manifold, can anyone tell me of an easy way to measure actual flow so we can compare to stock and also to the sheetmatal competitors.

I used to think of this as a another expense that you didn't really need on a DSM since the invention of the sheetmetal intake, until a buddy of mine had his car broken into and they jacked a ton of his aftermaket stuff except the intake because it looked stock on the outside.

 

[fwdmaster]

You will need a flowbench, I use to have a extrude intake manifold and I really liked, gave me more mid-range

 

[unlmtdndeavor]

With the price of aftermarket manifolds now, it isn't really worth it to go out and port the factory pieces. Yes I know maybe you don't want all out power that a big drag smim is for, but there are also street version made as well. And the thought of someone breaking into my car isn't going to make me keep my car more stock, if they do it, they do it. Just my $.02

 

[kahl23]

Yeah, I had always viewed an extrude hone job as more of a sneaky way to increase flow in a stock appearing class, but not really worth the price if you don't care about stock appearance. Maybe, though, if the price is right some people in states with more aggressive LEO's (read: cali) might be interested.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Seems Darren ar FFWD is going to flowbench a bunch of manifolds.

May want to hook up with him to see if can get an Extrude Honed manifold in the mix.

 

[super97gst]

I'm sure you guys have heard about this company and their wonderful porting jobs. My question is if I were to set up a meeting with the president of the company would there be enough people interested in getting stuff ported. Also, if I get them to do a couple pieces, say an intake manifold and a 2g exhaust manifold, can anyone tell me of an easy way to measure actual flow so we can compare to stock and also to the sheetmatal competitors.

I used to think of this as a another expense that you didn't really need on a DSM since the invention of the sheetmetal intake, until a buddy of mine had his car broken into and they jacked a ton of his aftermaket stuff except the intake because it looked stock on the outside.

want i really want to know is what kind of thief is gonna steal an intake mani??WTF thats one desperate damn thief, be about like somebody stealing your polished 02 housing off your car. back to the subject, i have had an EH intake mani on my gst for 3 years and i like it alright. however i definitely wouldn't pay the 400 for a new one. i got it used on the classifieds for 150, so i thought it would be well worth it for that. it did give a noticeable difference in horsepower when i port matched it to my 1G TB and installed it.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Better to spend the money on a SMIM than an extrude honing.