Engine Management, who's running it?

[1stGENracer]

Who here is running engine management? How hard was it to install? Did you piggyback it or running stand alone?

I am looking at running EMS engine management. But I wanted to install it myself, as they charge about $650 to install and tune.

I wanted to run it piggyback also, as the computer will be using any sensors I need, and I will have an extra output on the EMS to run anything else I wanted.

Any help you guys can give me on install and tuning would be very helpful.

Thanx

 

[1stGENracer]

no one?

 

[markgholland]

Can you be more specific? Everyone that has modified his or her car has some type of "engine management." That is a very broad question with no real answer. A stand-alone is a stand-alone. You can not "piggyback" it. You can get stock settings and go from there. There are a few options that you have with a piggyback system. A lot of people use... AFC, VPC, MAF Translator, Greddy e-Manage, etc. I'm sure there are some that I have missed...

According to your profile, you don't even have an aftermarket turbo... Why would you need to run a stand alone with a stock 14b? Ever consider maybe tuning with an AFC before you go with a more complicated stand-alone?

Also, the reason they would charge you $650 for "installation and tuning" is because your car would probably be on the dyno or on the road taking up labor hours.

Be more specific and we may be able to help you out some more.

 

[SpoOLxExO]

I would say get a VPC, they just plain work period. Easy to tune, and get rid of your MAF due to the Speed-density conversion it does.

The AEM EMS is for advanced tuners, that have access to a dyno, can shell out the extra loot to make the EMS speed-density like the VPC, and have a laptop and wideband O2 sensor on hand. Other than that its a great system. If you still need "Help" on tuning and installing the EMS try going to www.aempower.com and posting in the "EMS" forum

Short of that, i'm gunna have to testify that the VPC next to the ACT2600 clutch, has been the best mod I've done yet. You can clean up your engine bay alot by removing the unnessisary EGR components and having a hard pipe and filter vs. the MAF and all the EGR lines, imo.
Tuning is easy as all it has for knobs is:

"Response"-How much fuel to add during throttle tip in. DSM's like the 5 0'clock position as it helps spool the turbo the fastest.

"Gain"-this is fuel curve adjustability over the whole spectrum in 2% increments from +/- 12%

"Idle" This is for 1300rpm and lower. This helps smooth the idle due to fuel upgrades, etc.

Seeing your mods, all you need is a VPC, FMIC, Turbo, and Injectors.

Your car will be stupid fast after those mods!

So yeah, one vote from a VPC user!

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by 1stGENracer
Who here is running engine management? How hard was it to install? Did you piggyback it or running stand alone?

I am looking at running EMS engine management. But I wanted to install it myself, as they charge about $650 to install and tune.

I wanted to run it piggyback also, as the computer will be using any sensors I need, and I will have an extra output on the EMS to run anything else I wanted.

Any help you guys can give me on install and tuning would be very helpful.

Thanx

An AEM EMS system is quite expensive and this is coming from a guy considering $1600 connecting rods.

AEM EMS is a mostly a plug in affair and quite frankly do everything anyone would ever need it to do..

Go to AEMpower.com and the electronics forum for anything on the install and tuning.

Maybe get DSM link.. I can tell that right now something like the new version of the MAFT would be all you would need for a good while.

Right now the almost $2k by the time your done with sensors and stuff for a new AEM EMS could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[SpoOLxExO]

DSMlink won't work.

MAFT is okay....sigh.You would have to modify your upper intercooler pipe, or use it before the turbo method.

VPC all the way. (Sorry had to say it again, 1g application you can't beat it.)Just tap an Air Intake Temp sensor the size of a short pencil into your throttle body, hook up the MAP sensor, and remove the MAF.

Ask any 1g guy, that has close to your mods and run fast, what type of fuel controller they have. You already have the TMOIII it looks like, thats a bonus.

Can't really beat the TMOIII/VPC combo, ask Dave B.

 

[Mike 99GSX]

Originally posted by SpoOLxExO
DSMlink won't work.

It has been made to work on a 1g, not true. Not as easy obviously, but possible.

 

[MNGSX]

Sorry I got 2g on the brain...

Don't see too many 1gs around here. HS kids either toataled them or they rusted out already...

IMHO... MAFT... The NEW upcoming version.

I just have the old one because I wanted a MAF sensor I could'nt overrun connected to the standalone. I prefer a blow thru MAFT to speed density.

With WB o2 running in closed loop, a MAF sensor which is'nt restrictive or overrun actually metering air, a intake air temp sensor after the IC near the TB and a GM MAP sensor measuring boost/vac it is going to be one easily tunable MFR.

WB 02 in closed loop constantly fine tunes the fuel map.

The MAF sensor actually can sense airflow changes (VE) as opposed to just extrapolating them. You can actually see the effect of cams and cam degreeing changes via datalogging... It actually can compensate for the airflow changes in the fuel delivery because it bases fuel directly on airflow.
A Map sensor is cheaper to produce than a MAF sensor. If it was just as good for everything I don't think all these car companies would be spending so much on MAF sensors.

I say MAFT 1g V2.

 

[1stGENracer]

Originally posted by markgholland
Can you be more specific? Everyone that has modified his or her car has some type of "engine management." That is a very broad question with no real answer. A stand-alone is a stand-alone. You can not "piggyback" it. You can get stock settings and go from there. There are a few options that you have with a piggyback system. A lot of people use... AFC, VPC, MAF Translator, Greddy e-Manage, etc. I'm sure there are some that I have missed...

According to your profile, you don't even have an aftermarket turbo... Why would you need to run a stand alone with a stock 14b? Ever consider maybe tuning with an AFC before you go with a more complicated stand-alone?

Also, the reason they would charge you $650 for "installation and tuning" is because your car would probably be on the dyno or on the road taking up labor hours.

Be more specific and we may be able to help you out some more.

Sorry, I'm not going to be running the 14b, theres a lot of stuff that isn't in my profile that I have, or will be getting with Tax returns. My profile barely touches what is there.

Ok the Engine management I plan on Running is the EMS Stinger 4424 engine management system, I am getting it through www.ptrsds.com , they are local shop. The guy that installs the the systems said I can instal with the stock ECU, it will control fuel, and ignition, but use the stock ECU to run all sensors, so that way I have an open auxillary output available to run anything else I wanted to run, say nitrous on/off at certain RPM's, or boost.

Maybe I miss enterpitated(spelling) what he was saying. But thats what it sounded like he was saying pretty much. I think he was mainly talking about the ignition system on the DSM's, and thats where my biggest problem would be unless I wanted to buy alot more stuff.

Does that help some?

Pretty much, How hard was it to install a stand alone system.
Also the system is only $798, and it suppose to tear up the AEM system, and thats not just what the shop told me. I talk to other people running this system.

 

[MNGSX]

I have seen the stinger before and played with the software... Yawn....

Go to DSM Translator Group and check out the posts about the beta testers of the new version...

That is the simplest installed capable solution..

Or look out for a used pro-efi on the pro-efi group.

 

[jdmawd]

Originally posted by MNGSX
Sorry I got 2g on the brain...

Don't see too many 1gs around here. HS kids either toataled them or they rusted out already...

IMHO... MAFT... The NEW upcoming version.

I just have the old one because I wanted a MAF sensor I could'nt overrun connected to the standalone. I prefer a blow thru MAFT to speed density.

With WB o2 running in closed loop, a MAF sensor which is'nt restrictive or overrun actually metering air, a intake air temp sensor after the IC near the TB and a GM MAP sensor measuring boost/vac it is going to be one easily tunable MFR.

WB 02 in closed loop constantly fine tunes the fuel map.

The MAF sensor actually can sense airflow changes (VE) as opposed to just extrapolating them. You can actually see the effect of cams and cam degreeing changes via datalogging... It actually can compensate for the airflow changes in the fuel delivery because it bases fuel directly on airflow.
A Map sensor is cheaper to produce than a MAF sensor. If it was just as good for everything I don't think all these car companies would be spending so much on MAF sensors.

I say MAFT 1g V2.

Good call.

Here is the AMS Review of the MAFT. i Tend to take reviews based on hard numbers a little more serious then random opinion based comments.

AMS
Vendor

Car: 91 Galant VR-4
City:
State: Arlington Heights, IL
Registered: Jan 2003
Currently Offline


Post :
12-18-2003 02:59 PM

Please don't take this the wrong way but I never said the MAFT sucks or it doesn't work. My guys know the results we had on the dyno and I told them how it performed and the features of it. I've never heard them say it sucks, but they know that it doesn't do the things that some people said it would do. I will explain my stance on this and give you some results of what we found.

First of all Mike Licht is a great guy and we worked together on this and I want to thank him for supplying me with a unit to test. Before I elaborate on how we tested, I want to tell you that coming from an engineering background I do my testing with utmost regard for accuracy and repeatability. I keep all variables constant to extract data that is representative of the product being tested.

The test car was a 93 talon with the following mods:

stock motor and head
Forrester racing heads intake manifold
HKS 272/272 cams
Ported 2G exh. manifold
bolt-on PTE mitsu/garret turbo (small trim)
3" o2 housing and 3" exhaust (with test pipe)
Spearco 2-221 core with 2.5" diameter piping
680cc/min injectors
Walbro 255lph fuel pump
S-AFC
1G slightly hacked MAS with Dejon intake pipe

The only item changed was the installation of the MAFT and a new intake pipe to fit the MAFT to the turbo. Runs where done with the car at full operating temperature, with a 3-4 minute wait between runs and the IC was ambient temperature at the beginning of each run. There where about 3-4 baseline runs for each session to make sure we where getting good repeatability.

The Results:

With the 1G hacked MAF we made 362whp. With the MAFT we made 368whp. Gains started at 5600rpm and peaked at 7400rpm with a 6whp gain. Spool-up time was exactly the same on both setup. These results where made with a tuned A/F ratio of 12.0:1 on both setups. Now that we have the hard data I'll give you my opnion.

I saw numerous people post that it decreased spool-up by 500rpm and that they felt big gains on their but-dyno. When tuned correctly on both setups, I do not see these as realistic results. What I think was happening was that the cars where not in good tune (A/F ratio) before installation. The MAFT is a good thing for people who do not have access to a wide-band o2 or do not feel comfortable tuning an S-AFC themselves. The MAFT has basic setting for different sized injectors which brings the tune pretty close to optimum A/F, unlike a S-AFC which most guess at the settings for bigger injectors (especially if you hack your MAS or install a 2G MAS on a 1G car). So in this aspect I think the MAFT is a good thing in that it already has preset fuel trims which will let your car run at correct A/F ratio's with larger injectors. I say this because most of the cars we street tune with S-AFC are pretty far off when we first get it. Sometimes too lean but most of the time they are way rich, 10:1. For the person who has their A/F ratio's hurting their power or spool-up, the MAFT will definetly help power and spool-up. When customers come in I recommend a good street-tune with a wideband over the MAFT, because in the end you are getting the same performance for less money. I tell them what we've found and I'm very honest about, I don't bash it or put it down.

So to break it down, if you have access to a wideband o2 or you know how to read plugs, monitor EGT's and are knowledgable on tuning, I'd recommend you stay with your 2G MAS (or upgrade to one if you have a 1G) and use a S-AFC. If you don't want to mess with stuff, don't feel comfortable tuning A/F's, or just want it simplified, get the MAFT. I hope this helped and cleared up a few issues. I'm very honest with everything I do and I would never cover up test results or inflate claims. If something doesn't work well I investigate why and learn from this. I test every product I make and if doesn't make hp or work well, I don't sell it. I've tested products from other companies that lose horsepower or don't work, and I think it's important that I share this information because it educates the consumer and improves the industry. There are plenty of snake-oil salesmen out there that would sell you anything just to make a buck, and it's hard sometimes to differntiate good product from bad without testing it. Again, I'm not saying the MAFT is a bad product, but just sharing my personal views about other vendors/manufacturers of performance products.

Regards,

Martin Musial

 

[kpt4321]

I'm getting pretty tired of people quoting that one AMS review. There are LOTS of people who have also said good things about the MAFT. For example, Hal Landry of Tunerstein fame has one on all three of his DSM's.

I have one, wouldn't trade it for anything. Nine5Raptor has one, he loves it. The fastest pump gas run ever made with a DSM (11.5) was made with a MAFT.

You can't compare it to the VPC in terms of the outright times that it has run, because the VPC has been out for like 10 years now! I'm pretty sure the VPC didn't run 7's the first year it was out either.

There have been plenty of people who have had problems with VPC's too. They are known to cause problems with stumbling, especially off idle, and especally when cold. None of the VPC cars I have driven were great in this respect. Now, I am not saying that the VPC is a bad system, but why is it that people can ignore the VPC's problems but they can't ignore tiny issues (or issues that don't even exist) with the MAFT?

Now, about the review:

All that review says is that the MAFT didn't show huge power gains at higher rpm's on the dyno. Who ####ing cares? If you buy a MAF for huge power gains you're in for a nice surprise...it just won't happen.

 

[jdmawd]

My interpretation from that review is this. The maft will work well on a horribly tuned setup. however going from a well tuned setup to another well tuned setup there gains are marginal.

They are known to cause problems with stumbling,

im sure there are, however that has not been my experience to date.

especially off idle, and especally when cold.

my car does stumble if i dont allow it to warm up. But its been 14* in the morning here the last few weeks.

All that review says is that the MAFT didn't show huge power gains at higher rpm's on the dyno. Who ####ing cares

Is that not the point of it? Better flow and metering under boost and at high flow levels?

 

[SpoOLxExO]

I guess that it comes down to your style in this instance.

1.VPC/MAFT boxes are pretty good by themselves. Additional tuning requires additional airflow controller.

2.VPC makes your intake system look smooth(er) than MAFT due to the placement of a 3"-3.5" meter in a 2.5" inch diameter pipe system at most, but requires you to adapt to your current intercooler pipe setup.

3.VPC/MAFT has been around for ten years or so. So they do work.

AEM requires loads more sensors, tuning, etc to be feasible. Especially on a Daily driven street car.

1stGenRacer needs to come up with a plan of attack as far as choosing what type of management he wants to run, in co-ordination to how the car will be driven/utilized. Will it be a daily driver? How much do you mind spending. How do you want to have your engine bay setup?

These things need to be adressed before any more "advice", so this doesnt turn into a "Fuel controllerX Vs Fuel controllerZ" battle.

So 1stGenRacer...anyting to add?

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by jdmawd
My interpretation from that review is this. The maft will work well on a horribly tuned setup. however going from a well tuned setup to another well tuned setup there gains are marginal.

My car went 12.8 @ 108 on a 14b, 450's, stock SMIC, stock intercooler piping... would you like to tell me that it's tuned horribly?

In all cases, going from a well-tuned setup to another well-tuned setup will all of the same parts isn't going to net you a power increase.

my car does stumble if i dont allow it to warm up. But its been 14* in the morning here the last few weeks.

It's been -5* in the morning here. No stumbling.

 

[jdmawd]

My car went 12.8 @ 108 on a 14b, 450's, stock SMIC, stock intercooler piping... would you like to tell me that it's tuned horribly?

I have no idea, my post was (as said) my interpretation of the back to back comparison AMS performed with a MAFT and a 2g MAS. I don't think your 12.8 14B run was covered in that review. So I have no comment on your state of tune. It simply does not interest me.

It's been -5* in the morning here. No stumbling.

Most stock cars run very well. Large injectors cams intake manifolds..ect tend to offer a trade of to some degree in drive ability. At -5* I would assume one would desire to warm their car up to some degree so the point is moot.

 

[1stGENracer]

Well my car probably isn't going to be a daily driver much longer. It will still be street driven, but probably only in the summer time, and still probably not that often then. I have all bottom end mods, I am getting the head rebuilt right now, and should have HKS 264/272 in the near furture, when $ permits. I will most likely be running a Garret 50 trim .60 A/R compressor, Stage III wheel, .63 A/R turbine, with a custom built manifold, and External TiAL 40mm. So right now I'm trying to decide on how to manage the fuel as I will be running 780cc injectors also.

I'm still undecided on everything, I wanted to know how hard it is to install and tune engine management, because that would be a factor in buying the EMS stinger. I want the datalogging, and the better control of fuel, and what not. I have a pocketlogger, but I just don't like it, its a nice little tool, but I would much rather have my laptop(which doesn't need the program reinstalled ever time the batteries go dead). I'm sure I could handle the install, but tuning might be a problem. Still if I couldn't tune it, it would cost half as much as the install and tune together.

I've got to go to work, so maybe I will add more tomorrow if I can think of anything else.

 

[1stGENracer]

I think I'm just going to buy a motorcycle instead of modding my car anymore.

 

[Nappy94]

I recommend Microtech. I would look into their LTX-8 system, they are a budget system. Running in under $900, provide all the options of say a Haltech and come pre-programmed for much less.

 

[microtechtunner]

yes microtech is the best way to tune the cars with big turbos and is very easy to use

 

[gamingguru]

I have an EMS. I would not recomend it unless you know what you are getting into. A standalone is not really for the weak of heart. It's too easly to break things if you don't know what you are doing.