Egt

[Kevin Jewer]

Originally posted by wira4



I am using a programmble ecu which does not do knock detection nor timing retard when knock occurs. I have no way of knowing there was any knock but I could see a high EGT of 1700F at WOT and noticed AFR of 12.3 :1 on the wide band. I was running 98octane fuel and timing was 17* advance. What causes the high EGT at such fair AFR on my 2G DSM? Boost was 28psi with the Green and intercooling is via an Evo 3 FMIC.

Thanks for providing that info! Here is what I think about it, for what its worth. 17 degrees is pretty low, so a slightly high EGT at any reasonable AF ratio doesnt surprise me. I noticed that anything over 20-22 degree advance would significantly lower EGTs, while also telling me there wasnt any apreciable knock. But I have to be careful saying that, since when using an AFC type device, you can really move down on the airflow maps and still get high timing while knocking since you are lying to the ECU about airflow. I'm assuming your ECU doesnt do this though. My "goal" for timing is ~21 degrees on pump gas, and 23-24 on race gas. But just when I really started to make progress on race gas last year, the tracks closed.

I find it very difficult to get good timing at 22 psi with 94 octane, and suspect that it will be equally difficult at 28 psi with 98 octane. Over 22-23 psi I use 110-117 octane and have very good results (on a turbo similar to yours, mitsu TDO6/50 trim hybrid). I also run quite a bit richer than 12.3:1. I have found over time and different setups that it is much better to be too rich than too lean. I was suprised by this since for years DSMers have been preaching about leaning out as far as possible. I think the ONLY advantage to this line of thinking came about from using the AFC, and that is the increased timing you get.

When I run lean and timing gets pulled the car is amazingly slow. When I run pig rich (10:1) but advance the timing significantly (since they are adjusted independantly in DSMlink) I gain 40-50 WHP. I have seen evidence of this both on the track and on the dyno. In fact the first night I tried this method, I went from a best of 12.4 at 110, to 12.2 at 115. A friend tried the same thing on the dyno, adding fuel even though he was never knocking at the current settings, and gained 40 whp on the dyno. I never would have realized the difference here had I not used DSMlink and tried out a few theories that most poeple thought were obsurd. I'm sure the "fast guys" already know this, and this is how they actually benefit from using standalones. Independant control of timing and fuel.

To relate this to your situation, you cant read knock, but I wouldnt be surprised if you were knocking despite a normal EGT of 1700 degrees.

So my advice would be more fuel AND more timing if your particular ECU allows it. If you do try this, be sure to tell me what the effect on EGT was, and what increase in power you found, whether measured at the track or on the dyno. I'm quite curious. By the time I started tuning this way, my EGT probe had long since comitted suicide. Your situation is one where you can make use of an EGT guage, since knock retard isnt interfering with the results, and one reason I hesitate to call EGT completely useless. Every setup is a bit different.

As for my writing style, there are two things to thank for that. One is my mom harrassing me about it for the last 25 years, . And the other is a complete frustration with the half assed attempts some people make at posting. The information might be very valid and useful, but if no one understands what the hell the poster is trying to say... And we are all still learning, especially me. So I'm glad people find this thread useful. Its sticky on a handful of forums, so people must be enjoying it. Good solid info is hard to find, since most of the "fast guys" are too busy being fast, too fed up with forums, or too secretive to post thier findings. So wherever possible I try to let the thousands of hours and dollars I have invested in this help others that may not have done the experimenting themselves yet, or havent reached a point where they have everything needed to do it yet. I always tell people, dont take my word for it. If you have the means, try the things you read and verify the results in every way possible... And that goes for anything you read on the internet. Had I not questioned the common rules of thumb for EGT, I never would have learned all that I posted about in this thread...

 

[herblove]

So all this means that is would better for me to send my money elsewhere than on a EGT gauge. I have the new AFCII that reads knock I take that will be enough to tune with. RIGHT?? (1g)

 

[Ryan95tsiAWD]

As I am now at the point of adding new injectors and a way to control this "over-boosting beast" of mine (different problem), I must say this thread was one of the most informative.

Thanks 95gsxracer!

BTW- I was going to buy an EGT and DSMlink sometime soon, would I be fine just getting DSMlink?

Thanks again,

 

[Kevin Jewer]

DSMlink is all you will need to tune. I may replace my EGT probe just to keep experimenting with it, but if you try to tune with it it will slow you down. If you have a functioning knock sensor, the DSMlink has everything you need. If anything, I would do DSMlink and Wideband. The wideband is not to tune by in the traditional sense, but to keep AF ratios in the correct balpark, and to try different things with some degree of repeatability since O2 sensor voltage is even less usefull than EGT. I wont even go into the data I found to support that wild claim

I dont think the SAFCIIs knock function will work on our car. Until I hear of someone using it I will continue to assume so. The way the ECU reads, interprets, and makes decisions based on knock is very complicated. The AFCII will have no way of reproducing what the ECU sees. So I dont think it would be even 1/10th as usefull as the knock retard function in DSMlink for example, or knock counts in TMO or pocketlogger, etc.

 

[wira4]

Originally posted by 95GSXracer



Thanks for providing that info! Here is what I think about it, for what its worth. 17 degrees is pretty low, so a slightly high EGT at any reasonable AF ratio doesnt surprise me. I noticed that anything over 20-22 degree advance would significantly lower EGTs, while also telling me there wasnt any apreciable knock. But I have to be careful saying that, since when using an AFC type device, you can really move down on the airflow maps and still get high timing while knocking since you are lying to the ECU about airflow. I'm assuming your ECU doesnt do this though. My "goal" for timing is ~21 degrees on pump gas, and 23-24 on race gas. But just when I really started to make progress on race gas last year, the tracks closed.


I find it very difficult to get good timing at 22 psi with 94 octane, and suspect that it will be equally difficult at 28 psi with 98 octane. Over 22-23 psi I use 110-117 octane and have very good results (on a turbo similar to yours, mitsu TDO6/50 trim hybrid). I also run quite a bit richer than 12.3:1. I have found over time and different setups that it is much better to be too rich than too lean. I was suprised by this since for years DSMers have been preaching about leaning out as far as possible. I think the ONLY advantage to this line of thinking came about from using the AFC, and that is the increased timing you get.

When I run lean and timing gets pulled the car is amazingly slow. When I run pig rich (10:1) but advance the timing significantly (since they are adjusted independantly in DSMlink) I gain 40-50 WHP. I have seen evidence of this both on the track and on the dyno. In fact the first night I tried this method, I went from a best of 12.4 at 110, to 12.2 at 115. A friend tried the same thing on the dyno, adding fuel even though he was never knocking at the current settings, and gained 40 whp on the dyno. I never would have realized the difference here had I not used DSMlink and tried out a few theories that most poeple thought were obsurd. I'm sure the "fast guys" already know this, and this is how they actually benefit from using standalones. Independant control of timing and fuel.

To relate this to your situation, you cant read knock, but I wouldnt be surprised if you were knocking despite a normal EGT of 1700 degrees.

So my advice would be more fuel AND more timing if your particular ECU allows it. If you do try this, be sure to tell me what the effect on EGT was, and what increase in power you found, whether measured at the track or on the dyno. I'm quite curious. By the time I started tuning this way, my EGT probe had long since comitted suicide. Your situation is one where you can make use of an EGT guage, since knock retard isnt interfering with the results, and one reason I hesitate to call EGT completely useless. Every setup is a bit different.

As for my writing style, there are two things to thank for that. One is my mom harrassing me about it for the last 25 years, . And the other is a complete frustration with the half assed attempts some people make at posting. The information might be very valid and useful, but if no one understands what the hell the poster is trying to say... And we are all still learning, especially me. So I'm glad people find this thread useful. Its sticky on a handful of forums, so people must be enjoying it. Good solid info is hard to find, since most of the "fast guys" are too busy being fast, too fed up with forums, or too secretive to post thier findings. So wherever possible I try to let the thousands of hours and dollars I have invested in this help others that may not have done the experimenting themselves yet, or havent reached a point where they have everything needed to do it yet. I always tell people, dont take my word for it. If you have the means, try the things you read and verify the results in every way possible... And that goes for anything you read on the internet. Had I not questioned the common rules of thumb for EGT, I never would have learned all that I posted about in this thread...

Frankly, I am using a Haltech e6k on my car. So no AFC related problem in my case. However, on the issue of ignition timing, all the ignition timing maps I have seen from professional tuners indicate very low ignition timings towards high boost area even to single digit timing values. I remember reading somewhere on a Toyota MR2 tuning forum that the highest desirable ignition timing running race gas is 20 deg at 200kPa (29psi) boost. By the way, the 3SGTe has about the same engine config as the 4G63t, CR=8 to 8.5, 16V dohc but slightly bigger bore at 86mm.

I suspect in my case of high EGT (1700F) that such occurrence is due to the smallish Evo 3 intercooler I am using at this boost level. The reason I said this is because my datalog shows high intake air temp of 136*F just after the TB. This seems to be the biggest problem which contributes to the high egt level.

On the tuning side, I will play with the timing vs EGT again with my standalone after I have replaced the intercooler with a much higher effcient fmic. Actually, I remember that I did experiment with timing and egt many moons ago with the engine at idle. Just like you said, retarding timing increases EGT and advancing timing reduces EGT. At that time, this has baffled me as the results were against what and everyone and I had normally believed. However, I could not be certain with high rpm and with engine at load.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Such low timing seems very strange to me. Even on the highest possible flow map in the stock ECU (over 2.1 g/sec) the ECU will still give 17 degrees, minus knock retard if there is any. And the factory is conservative. The only reason I can think of for using lower values than that is because you no longer have the safety of knock detection and timing retard. Low teens timing values will cost well over 100 hp on a "fast" car, I cant imagine what single digits would do. That idle timing practically. I have seen cars trapping high 100 and teens, add 5 degrees of timing (through knock reduction) and trap 4-5 mph higher, in the 120s. When my car gets to the track I can experiment with changing only timing (since it is seperate from knock reduction with DSMlink) and see what the difference in traps is. But what I have seen in the past with my car and others, anything less that 20 degrees is costing you, over 23-24 is the area of diminishing return. This is asuming race gas and no knock. On pump gas, I can remember when everyone and his brother that had DSMlink (not fooling ecu about airflow) was saying that we'll never see much over 18-19 degree timing on pump. I wondered if that was true, right up until I started running 22 degrees on pump and picked up HUGE power increase over 17 degrees. But I wont attempt to quantify that difference here until I go to the track and do some back to backs for some hard numbers.

High intake temps will not lead to a higher EGT necessarily. UNLESS it is in the form of an increaced tendency to knock. Which is most likely the case if lowering your intake temps lowers EGT. And without knock detection... Its hard to verify that. But then again, your ECU doesnt pull timing with knock, so all that goes out the window. But adding a better FMIC will always increase the safety margin, which should allow you to at least experiment more comfortably. Let me know what that does for EGT after you get it done. And I'll keep this thread posted on what I find at the track about timing vs traps, dsmlink style.

 

[kpt4321]

Just for the sake of bumping this post to the top, and making sure people understand its significance:

Well done Jewbags! That information was all very good, and it seems as though the naysayers have mysteriously disappeared from this conversation.

I still don't think you're a "god" though.

And, cool, I guess my sig is illegal. Maybe I'll get booted. Heh.

 

[chinchin]

My only question in all of this is: if egt gauges are so useless why are they #1 on the stage 2 tuning guide hmmm.... maybe that should be updated

 

[RocketBoy]

He didn't say that EGT gauges were worthless, he was just making a point that you have to know what you're looking at and how timing is affecting the reading. And usually, at the point in which you understand this, you already own a datalogger and can monitor knock count (1G) or timing (2G). Therefore, the EGT becomes a redundant gauge. I guess what I'm trying to say is that money would be better spent towards a logger or a dsmlink.

 

[lxlaw]

Damn 95gsxracer, i hope you have been copying and pasting all this stuff. How many times do you have to repeat it. I have learned one thing, if you are trying to help someone who doesnt know what they are talking about and they want to get on here and argue with you about what you know you are talking about then it is a waste of your time. I have seen this stuff on other boards where you have posted it and it is all logical and makes perfect sense. Put it this way if you are ever down here where i live, you can stop by my house and tune my car, and i promise i wont argue with you or try to disprove your information. Come on people listen to this man, he is educated in this field and has alot to offer us. Try to be receptive instead of using logic on something that we dont understand in the first place. Because to use logic you have to have an understanding. The basic thing he is saying is that an EGT in the right hands is a useful tuning tool, but if you dont know spend the money on a datalogger instead because it is easier to use and understand.

 

[TRBOTSI]

For the record, I taught 95GSXRACER everything he knows.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Originally posted by TRBOTSI
For the record, I taught 95GSXRACER everything he knows.

Nice try bollix The two posts above made perfect sense, and this ruined the winning streak we were on. :laugh: Thanks for the support guys. You both understand what I was getting at in this thread... TRBOTSI on the other hand, is way out in left field

 

[teg21]

Great Post!!! I'm just starting to get into tuning and its hard to understand everything people mean, what to log, what i should be looking for and that post summed it up very well. Hopefully I can get as good as you one day. Thanks again

 

[EuroGSTSpyder]

well pretty much same here.My tools are theS-AFC II, pocketlogger and an EGT right now and I will try to get it as good as I can by that since I havent gotten the money for the DSM link yet.....But with this info I got some new ideas and thoughts on how to try and tune the car at the best of my abilities.Will try to makeit good and se what comes up..and for sure...)%racer will be getting the opportunityy to look at it..**

Thanx for new thoughts and ideas!

 

[evil_eagle]

I can back up everything that 95gsxracer is talking about, me along with my race team and my father and uncle's prostock firebird have learned alot about egt tuning for the past 9 years.

I dont give a sh1t what anyone says, egt's will allways act different in every car, you have to learn your car before you learn egt's.
AND YES YOU CAN DETERMINE TIMING WITH EGT'S, more timing will result in a more efficent burn in result cooler egt's, now if you see your egt's sky rocket all of the sudden, then there is a problem (ie: knock, detination, timing retard, missfire yada yada ya)

My car for example
wide band A/F ratio 12.1 6000rpm
timing advance 22 degrees 6000rpm
knock 17 counts 6000rpm
egt's 800c 6000rpm

Now explain why my egt's would be so low with that kind of log going on? see how this works? Now if I were some nubbin at dsm's and listened to all this bs about tuning with egt's then sh1t, I would have took out a ton of fuel to bring it up to 900c and geuss what would have happened if I were to do that? yup you geussed it BOOM!!!!! bye bye motor.

Every car is different with egt's and timing advance, everyone has to take in account for these things
elavation
wheather
type of fuel you run
type of octane you run
type of specific gravity in the fuel
type of lead in the fuel
base timing
WOT timing
knock
and the list goes on and on and on

You guys gotta look at the egt gauges as a last resort tuning tool, mostly main purpose for egt's is for WOT runs as it's alittle hard to stare at the logger, so look at egt's more as a safe gaurd more then anything.

Just like o2's, I get soooo sick and tired of people using o2's to tune there car with, for hell sakes, o2's ARE FOR EMISSIONS!!!! not tuning I've seen a guy here melt the holy hell out of his motor using a big 16g only at 17lbs of boost with 660cc injectors, denso intake pump, afc, and geuss what, he listened to all the nubbins on some of these boards, so he was shooting for .92-.93 o2's, he ended up melting it at .97 o2's, go figure huh?

Datalogging timing, knock, injector cycle duty are the 3 key things in tuning a dsm, best tuning tool you can ever buy, and the old fashion way, checking plugs, plugs tell you everything your motor is doing, it can tell if it's runing lean, rich, timing advance (if you know how to read plugs) detanation yada yada ya.

But anyways, I will stop rambleing here, just wanted to back up what 95gsxracer was saying.
-Jake

 

[Phoenyx]

Just to add a few more cents to this thread.

Concerning Standalones:

The biggest drawback I had with my Haltech EMS for my RX7 was the fact that it didn't monitor knock and was able to retard timing on its own. I made several fatal mistakes: 1) by getting the car tuned at a dyno facility where the temperature inside was well over 80F, 2) I set my ignition cut (should've used fuel cut) to higher than the stock redline (about 7700rpms). Not only was I running lean (injector duty cycle was well over 100% at 4800rpms) in cold weather, but 3) I redlined the car all the way up past 7700rpms (while racing) and BOOM!! Apex seal blew on a brand new motor!

Morale of the story, if the Haltech could monitor knock, then it would've overriden my timing maps and retarded timing to the point of very little power, it may have caused me to question why I wasn't getting much power. I also should've used fuel cut which would instantly drop piston rpms instead of ignition cut where the pistons could occasionally go above the 7700rpm threshold even though there is no spark and a lean condition could actually ignite the combustion chambers.

A bit more education in this area would've also helped..

-M

 

[chinchin]

So... I'm drilling the hole for my egt probe right. Well I'm using a small bit to start and the car is idleing. I break through and snap! the f#cking drill bit breaks and falls into the hole... dough!!!! the car dies I'm screwed and all for a worthless guage that probably wouldn't have help me anyhow.
Anyway I haven't gotten the turbo off yet but if anyone wants to guess whats screwed up I'll post another reply when I do get it off and let you know who's right.
Wish me luck I'll need it.

 

[toshi128]

sorry to hear that man... hope you still had a stock turbo...

 

[Phoenyx]

Originally posted by chinchin
So... I'm drilling the hole for my egt probe right. Well I'm using a small bit to start and the car is idleing. I break through and snap! the f#cking drill bit breaks and falls into the hole... dough!!!! the car dies I'm screwed and all for a worthless guage that probably wouldn't have help me anyhow.
Anyway I haven't gotten the turbo off yet but if anyone wants to guess whats screwed up I'll post another reply when I do get it off and let you know who's right.
Wish me luck I'll need it.

Why on earth would you try to drill a hole in the manifold while the car is on?????

You'd better hope the bits didn't go through the compressor blades (probably torn) and small fragments when into the engine...

-M

 

[toshi128]

So that the little chips of the manifold will be blown out by the exhaust gas...

Originally posted by Phoenyx


Why on earth would you try to drill a hole in the manifold while the car is on?????

You'd better hope the bits didn't go through the compressor blades (probably torn) and small fragments when into the engine...

-M

 

[Ryan95tsiAWD]

did you have the wastegate held open with your down pipe off????

 

[chinchin]

Well the turbo's off. No visable damage the bit got choped up and I think I got it all out. The only thing left to do now is hog it out and port it as much as I can stick it back on and see what happens, I'll let you know.

By the way it was the stock turbo but I was hoping to keep it a bit longer at 18 psi I was raising hell and lovin it.

 

[igs]

Originally posted by 95GSXracer
I'm going to go a little more in depth, since some people are still having a hard time grasping this concept, despite the fact that it has been discussed to death on various forums for at least the last 3 years that I can recall.

People think that high EGTs equal high combustion temps, which would indicate a lean mixture. So when they see high temps, the typically add fuel. And when it is low they lean out. This method of tuning is flawed for various reasons, and I will touch on all of them.

Myth number one: The internal engine parts will melt at over 900 degrees C or 1650 F. Here is some big news. Combustion temps are over 2000 degrees and can reach 3 to 4 thousand. So why dont the parts melt? Just a few quick reasons. One is heat sink capacity. Two is heat transfer from the piston to the cylinder wall through the rings. Three is heat transfer to the oil that is splashed up or squirted on the piston and other parts. Four is heat transfer into the cooling system through the head or block. In fact, so much heat is taken out through these methods that by the time the combustion gasses get to the manifold and EGT probe, temp is down to 900 c or 1650 f ;o) Some heat is also lost in the conversion of heat energy to mechanical energy in the form of gas expansion. So that myth goes down the terlet.

Myth number two. If EGT is high the mixture is too lean. Well what happens when the mixture is (way) too rich? It is still burning as the exhaust valve opens. Fire in the manifold WILL heat up the probe. Not rocket science. I have seen a dozen people add fuel and add fuel and EGT temps dont go down. Lean out to where they are supposed to be though and its all normal again. I know it goes against the "Internet Laws of EGT Guages," but its the truth. Also, what happens when the mixture is WAY too lean? Temps go down. Why? Less fuel to support combustion. It is entirely possible to be so lean that combustion temps drop so low that there isnt enough heat energy to increase pressure enough to cause knock. I have seen this happen on my car after a baro wire mod gone wrong.

Myth number three. If EGT is too low, the mixture is too rich. Not necessarily, though this is way more possible than vice versa. It depends entirely on the setup. The more knock prone you are the more fuel you need. That slight difference in EGT temp will show itself if and only if you are getting maximum timing advance for your setup.

So what does the EGT tell you? I've said it a thousand times before, as have hundreds of other DSMers, but ponder this. You are knocking. For ANY reason, not just lean mixture. The knock sensor picks this up and reports to the ECU. Now this may be hard for some of you to believe apparently, but when the ECU senses knock, it pulls timing. The amount of timing it pulls will vary based on the "normal" knock sensor noise threshold, how strong the signal is, and how long it has been going on, among other factors. The ECU comes up with a kncok retard value, and that amount of timing is pulled back from where the full timing would be based on the timing map you are currently on. Here is what I mean by this. The timing map you are currently on is based on airflow mostly, but also coolant temp and intake temp and other factors. This map or table includes timing values for each rpm point. So lets say for where your car curently is, you are on a map that says at this rpm maximum advance would be 17 degrees. But knock retard is 3 degrees. What will your timing be? Get out the calculators. 14 degrees is what you will get.

Now what does retarded timing have to do with this... If the timing is retarded enough, as in LESS ADVANCE, the ignition event occurs LATER in the combustion cycle, in degrees of crank rotation. If the mixture is ignited late enough, it is still burning as the exhaust valve opens. Refer to "Myth number two." Fire in the hole will heat up the probe. THIS IS WHY high EGT temps mean that you are getting knock and reduced timing advance. Read it a few times. Let it soak in.

Furthermore, the amount of change in EGT temps per change in air fuel ratio is MINOR, while conversely, the change in exhaust gas temps is SUBSTANTIAL when the timing is retarded and there is fire on the probe. Why? The increased heat caused by a leaner mixture is mostly absorbed by the motor or converted to additional mechanical engery. The latter is the cause for the increase in power when you can lean out without knocking (<- key phrase, pay attention). By the time the combustion gasses get to the probe, the difference is now slight. In contrast, the difference in temps between normal exhaust gasses and fire is very significant and it show up easily on the guage. Now it is important to remember that the higher combustion temperatures caused by a lean mixture not only increase mechanical output, but increase a motor's (or cylinder's) tendency to knock. And again, this knock brings on timing retard, which brings on fire in the hole, which brings on a high EGT temp reported on the guage. THIS IS WHY poeple confuse high EGT temps caused by mixture with high EGT temps caused by knock. Because both usually happen at the same time when fuel tuning. You can also have one without the other, as is the case with mechanical knock or phantom knock.

So now that we got that straight...

Other reasons why EGT is not a good way to tune, without a logger. The ideal temperature will vary with EVERY car and EVERY setup and EVERY set of conditions. I do upwards of 300 drag passes a year and have clearly observed and datalogged this. With that established, the only way to find the ideal EGT temp for your setup/car/conditions/gear is to datalog to see what your timing is. At the point you develop knock you can get an idea of where you want EGT. The problem is, as I stated above, when you have full timing the difference in temperature effected by changes in air fuel ratio is very small. This is complicated even more by my next point:

EGT guages are not very accurate, nor are they precise. Yet another reason to need a datalogger to verify and validate what you are seeing on the EGT guage... The probes are slow to respond, and I will explain why. The rate at which an object changes temperature varies directly as the the difference between the temperature of the object and the temperature of its surroundings. In this case the object is the probe, and the surroundings are the exhaust gasses. What this tells us is that the greater the difference in the temp of the probe and the temp of the gasses the greater the RATE OF CHANGE of temperature. So as the temp of the probe rises (or falls) to match the temp of the exhaust gasses, the difference between the two temps is decreasing. This slows the rate of change. And the cycle continues... So as you can see this is not a linear function, its a curve. This is why poeple often say that the guage reacts slow, or to estimate how fast the needle is moving to estimate where it would really be if it was faster, etc. This is a fundamental problem for both accuracy (especially) and precision (not so much). Another problem is that in general they tend to fail on the low side, meaning they will read colder than what the case really is. So you'll lean out more and more. What happens then is you seem knock "easier" and the tuning window (based on EGT temps) becomes very small and touchy. I have been there, and done that. This is not the way I would choose to tune my car But if so many people insist this is the way to go, what can I say.

This is not rocket science. This is not new information. It has been documented, measured, qualified, quantified, and posted about for as long as I have been into DSMs. But not enough apparently. I am going to copy this into a file on my PC, so I can paste it into the next 500 posts I read about this. If I have to type all of this again I'm gonna snap...

That is one biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig pile of horseshit.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Originally posted by igs


That is one biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig pile of horseshit.

Thank you for your valuable reply to this thread. A lot of time and thought went into that...

 

[igs]

Originally posted by 95GSXracer



Thank you for your valuable reply to this thread. A lot of time and thought went into that...

And thank you, for your valuable reply to my reply. You hypocrit.