DSM 4G63 output vs EVO8 engine? Which is better?

[Rob Rohr]

Here is something that has been bugging me. We know a stock USDM EVO8 running ~18psi makes 276hp and many of the EVO guys have paid for dyno testing-tuning and with basic mods (ECU flash, 21psi, IC piping, turbo-back, cam gears) they are making anywhere from 300-335whp. It seems like far fewer DSM guys bother to dyno their cars but everyone assumes to have "350hp" or whatever the guess of the day is.

In reality what kind of differences are there between the DSM and EVO engine from a power output point of view? I know the 1G is a bit down on compression, but how about cam lift and duration, intake and exhaust manifolds, etc? In other words, would a stock engine'd DSM always be down on power compared to a similarly modded EVO?

Also, how big is the stock EVO8 turbo compared to an EVOIII 16g? There are EVO guys running ~24psi on the stock turbo over 350whp (pump gas) but I don't know if you can get this from the EVOIII 16g on a DSM?

 

[CanadianTSi]

The Evo 8 has higher compression (8.8) and the exhaust housing is much bigger. I would also assume that it has more aggresive cams.

Not to mention the fact that everything on them is alot newer and one would assume there is alot more technology put into them.

 

[DSMSpyder99]

the EVO motor can handle up to 600WHP hands down the EVO8 is much better

 

[Rob Rohr]

the EVO motor can handle up to 600WHP hands down the EVO8 is much better

You didn't answer a single question I posted :thumbdown

 

[Rob Rohr]

The Evo 8 has higher compression (8.8) and the exhaust housing is much bigger. I would also assume that it has more aggresive cams.

Not to mention the fact that everything on them is alot newer and one would assume there is alot more technology put into them.

Thank you for the reply The extra 1 point of static compression (compared to a 1G) does no doubt help, but it might also limit the total dynmamic compression the EVO can run, although they are getting away with huge boost levels on pump gas!
I suspected the EVO8 cams were more radical than the DSMs and yet EVO owners are still seeing 20+whp from going to 264s or JUNs. Looks like all us DSMers should get bigger cams ASAP.
Pardon my ignorance, but if the EVO8s exhaust housing is 10.5cm what is the EVO3 16g?

 

[CanadianTSi]

7cm...

 

[ChicagoGSX]

10.5cm?? That seems way too big for a TD05H turbine wheel. I bet it is more like an 8cm.

 

[DSMSpyder99]

The EVO8 16G is a reverse twin scroll. THey have been using this type of turbo since 1996 in the EVO 4. Here is a link of FP EVO6 which is similar to the EVO8 16G http://linux.forcedperformance.net/...uct_Code=NTEVO8TI105&Category_Code=Lancer_EVO.

Here is some information for u ya Rob Rohr (FYI ur a Jacka$$)

A "twin scroll" or "divided inlet" means that there are two separate volutes within the turbine housing. The main reason for doing this is to isolate the pulses coming from each exhaust port and maintain more of the pulse energy from each cylinder all the way down to the turbine wheel. Generally speaking, a divided inlet turbine setup will respond faster and produce boost quicker than single or open design of the same nozzle area.

10.5cm?? That seems way too big for a TD05H turbine wheel. I bet it is more like an 8cm.

 

[PSI NRG]

I remember reading in a car and driver or some type of sports compact... oh wait it was a booklet packet that my history teacher in highschool gave me that was all about the evo8 and stuff cause he knew i liked cars but i remember reading that it has titaium valve springs and all types of higher quality material pieces along with freer flowing intake and exhaust components and stronger internal parts, there has also been alot of weight reduction done in roatating weight like the cam shafts are made out of a stronger material thats been hollowed and the valves are deeper. the evo8 motor is kinda like the s2k motor but turbo its pretty much set up to squeeze every once of power out of it possible yet keeping it streetable for daily driving. im sure if you go to mitsubishi' web page for the evo you can find all the exact details as i may not be totally accurate cause im trying to remember something that was over 2 years ago

 

[alexg1323]

oh lets not forget the sodium filled exhaust valves the evo 8 has like a freakin airplane.

 

[krisj144]

sure, the evo is more technologically advanced. The hollow camshafts and sodium filled valves help reduce parasitic hp losses and increase response while providing higher rpm capabilities (many guys are getting flashes to up the rev limit to 8500 with zero mods or just rod bolts from arp). There's no doubt the turbo is better than a stock 14b, or even any dsm 16g's and the exhaust manifold is exceptionally well matched. The proof in this is the number of guys running 11's on the stock turbo / intercooler / fuel system.

However, and this kind of brings me to the point, it seems as if you're trying to compare these engines from a purely hp standpoint as if they're just going to be used for drag racing. A lot of the evo guys seem intent on getting lot ET's with no real concern for how that affects what the car was intended for. If that's the case, then I've got to say that in the long run there's not going to be much of a difference between the two engines because so many of the parts will be replaced with aftermarket equipment that the factory engineering will be factored out.

My point here is that I've got an evo and a gsx and though they're both an absolute blast to drive, they are two _completely_ different animals. I'll always love the gsx for the power, though it's also capable on a handling standpoint. Similarly, the evo has no parallel in terms of suspension performance, but it's also properly quick in a straight line.

 

[DSMJim]

Have you ever looked at an Evo8 head? Its intake valves are identical to a 2G DSM head (for the most part) The intake ports are small but very direct to the valve same as a 2G head and the exhaust ports are no larger than a 1g or 2g head.

Has anybody ever really proven that putting a 1G head on a 2G motor is better or what? From the looks of it and what I have been discovering a 1g head (other then the cams) will be a power loss because of the way the intake ports are designed. They are on too much of an angle towards the valve, they are too large and will loose velocity. Does anybody have any dyno's or proof that the 1G head is better than the 2g head anywhere?

Sorry to go OT...

 

[gixrman]

I think it has been proven that STOCK the 1g and 2g will flow comparitive #'s for what they were set up to do. The 1g having the 14b and the 2g having the t-25. After that the 1g will flow alittle better on topend to redline and past ona hot street turbo, after that its time for aftermarket parts and porting.

When Mitsu went with the 2g set up it was to decrease lag and lowend bog, but topend suffered. Smaller Turbo= faster spool, smaller ports high velocity intake charge.

 

[92redman]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16920&highlight=head+flow
There is some 1g head flow numbers, now we just need the 2g numbers because the pic on the second page is now broken.

 

[GPTourer]

The '03 and '04 Evos have a 9.8 cm2 turbo nozzle and an oval wastegate shape.
The '05's have the 10.5 and circular shape.

So much R&D has gone into the Evo and its 4G63 that it would difficult to quantify its improvements by just looking at things like specs and measurements. I'm sure they don't publish all their secrets.

 

[Injected]

I think it's time a shop develops an engine swap like Hasport did for the K series engine into the EK chasis. That's right... Can you hear me out there???

 

[Syndicate13]

I think it's time a shop develops an engine swap like Hasport did for the K series engine into the EK chasis. That's right... Can you hear me out there???

For what? There is nothing in the Evo motor that you cannot get for a 6 bolt, nothing. Not to mention the fact that you would have to completely redo the entire drivetrain to swap the motor.

 

[Injected]

For what? There is nothing in the Evo motor that you cannot get for a 6 bolt, nothing. Not to mention the fact that you would have to completely redo the entire drivetrain to swap the motor.

Okay, let me list all the benifits of a motor swap like this... Eh, I'll just sum it up... Imagine having a DSM that can run amazing ET's, 6-speed transmission (Hate doing 70 MPH @ 3000 rpm in 5th?) AYC and all that was mentioned before. I guarantee that if a shop developed the swap and recieved enough coverage for it, it would become a very common thing, especially when you eventually can get a engine and tranny for cheap like you can a 6 bolt. It isn't feasable now... but when they put MIVEC into the evo's and these engines become more obsolite, it will happen.

 

[leakyfaucet]

Imagine having a DSM that can run amazing ET's, 6-speed transmission (Hate doing 70 MPH @ 3000 rpm in 5th?)

DSMs can already run amazing ETs. And if you don't like doing 70MPH at 3000 rpm you can just get a taller 5th gear installed.

No one on this board would run out of 4th gear in a 1/4 race, so don't tell me it's better for acceleration. The extra shift would take more time than the ever so slightly better gear ratios would make up for.

 

[1badtsi]

Okay, let me list all the benifits of a motor swap like this... Eh, I'll just sum it up... Imagine having a DSM that can run amazing ET's, 6-speed transmission (Hate doing 70 MPH @ 3000 rpm in 5th?) AYC and all that was mentioned before. I guarantee that if a shop developed the swap and recieved enough coverage for it, it would become a very common thing, especially when you eventually can get a engine and tranny for cheap like you can a 6 bolt. It isn't feasable now... but when they put MIVEC into the evo's and these engines become more obsolite, it will happen.

1. that swap would cost as much as just buying an evo and im sure there is no way you could you could transplant the ayc

2. mitsu would never go to mivec for the evo's , they are rally bred cars and n/a would never put up the torque numbers for a 4cyl required to even compete

 

[Injected]

DSMs can already run amazing ETs. And if you don't like doing 70MPH at 3000 rpm you can just get a taller 5th gear installed.

No one on this board would run out of 4th gear in a 1/4 race, so don't tell me it's better for acceleration. The extra shift would take more time than the ever so slightly better gear ratios would make up for.

I'm not about to jack this thread to argue a side point. The DSM's 4G63 is a great engine, very capable of doing more than what most people on this thread use their car for. Besides, you missed the point of my post. I never said that an extra gear was better for acceleration. The gear ratio argument is kind of pointless since the whole idea of the closer gears is to stay in the sweet spot of larger turbos and that is counter to what you are saying about taller gears.

For most DSMer's, all we want is a very fast, very reliable daily driver. The new 4G63 is simply a better engine since it is newer and uses far better technology. It is far more reliable for high horsepower, comes with a great stock turbo, has a better transmission, better diffs, AYC, better head design... etc. etc. And it's all because of the technology available when the engine was designed. Our 4G63 was developed in the late 80s. I can't believe that Mitsu has yet to put MIVEC in the EVO's but I bet it's just so they can use that as a sell point for the IX's or X's.

 

[Injected]

2. mitsu would never go to mivec for the evo's , they are rally bred cars and n/a would never put up the torque numbers for a 4cyl required to even compete

I don't mean MIVEC N/A, I mean a variable cam tech. + Turbo. Ever seen a turbo Vtech car? Like that, but with a better engine.

 

[BigBoosh3712]

For most DSMer's, all we want is a very fast, very reliable daily driver. The new 4G63 is simply a better engine since it is newer and uses far better technology. It is far more reliable for high horsepower, comes with a great stock turbo, has a better transmission, better diffs, AYC, better head design... etc. etc. And it's all because of the technology available when the engine was designed. Our 4G63 was developed in the late 80s. I can't believe that Mitsu has yet to put MIVEC in the EVO's but I bet it's just so they can use that as a sell point for the IX's or X's.

Do you know what MIVEC does? There is a reason why MIVEC is not employed in the EVO8 motors. Read up on it, MIVEC is good stuff.

I am sure you know this swap has been done. There are photos of it on this board. Do a search and you'll see it if you're interested.

The new 4g63 is in fact a wonderful engine. But how much do you think a swap like you're referring to would cost? Any logical person with enough money to do an evo to dsm motor swap will utilize the "late 80s 4g63" block and buy parts such as pistons, rods, stroker kit, etc that were developed recently (hence, having better technology). So you can spend X amount of money putting that evo engine in your dsm or spend the same X amount of money utilizing the same 6bolt block that was developed in the late 80s and use different, high performance, internals that were developed recently and much up to date with technology. Who do you think will benefit more in the end?

 

[GPTourer]

2. mitsu would never go to mivec for the evo's , they are rally bred cars and n/a would never put up the torque numbers for a 4cyl required to even compete

Actually, the Evo IX to be released next year will reportedly have MIVEC+turbo. It will be the last iteration of the 4G63T before the EVO X gets the world engine that was co-developed by Mitsu, DCX and Hyundai.

Whether MIVEC is to add more performance or allow the engine to meet ever stringent emissions laws remains to be seen.

On top of all that, the WRC is considering banning turbos entirely. The idea is to make the cost of entering lower so they can get more manufacturers to compete. So we may see a high strung MIVEC N/A motor from Mitsu before long.

 

[Syndicate13]

Okay, let me list all the benifits of a motor swap like this... Eh, I'll just sum it up... Imagine having a DSM that can run amazing ET's, 6-speed transmission (Hate doing 70 MPH @ 3000 rpm in 5th?) AYC and all that was mentioned before. I guarantee that if a shop developed the swap and recieved enough coverage for it, it would become a very common thing, especially when you eventually can get a engine and tranny for cheap like you can a 6 bolt. It isn't feasable now... but when they put MIVEC into the evo's and these engines become more obsolite, it will happen.

You do know that the Evo motor sits in an entirely different orientation than our cars right? It *could* be done but the cost far outweigh the benefits. At the heart the Evo motor is *basically* the same thing that sits in your car, it just spins the opposite way. It is not feasible since you would be actually fitting a DSM body around the Evo drivetrain rather then fitting the Evo drivetrain into a DSM.