Doing Some 420A Engine/Tranny Work in the Next Few Days..Need All the Help I Can Get!

[BoostedinSoFla]

I have a 95 GS Auto as my daily driver and I'll be doing some work on it in a few days.

1.) Tranny doesn't shift past 2nd gear and it sometimes doesn't want to go into gear at all so I'm replacing it with a used tranny I got for cheap. (2nd tranny in less than 2 years). I did a flush a week ago and it actually made it worse. (waste of $80)

2.) I'm sure my HG needs to be replaced because I'm losing coolant and I have a little white smoke at idle along with bad idle. I changed the Water pump/timing belt/timing components about 5 months ago (quite a learning experience) and I checked all hoses for leaks and also the infamous heater core.

Ok so those are the major things.

Head Questions

I've never changed a HG before so I started reading the Haynes manual today and I need some insight. It says that you have to remove the camshafts also...is this a must? Can't I just take off the head without removing the camshafts?

Is it really necessary to replace the head bolts? I know that they're "Torque to Yield" (TTY) but in the Haynes manual it said that if the head bolts aren't "stretched" then you don't need to replace them.

And what HG should I use to replace the stocker? (89,000 miles and never changed). I was thinking about buying this headset off ebay : http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1995...012QQitemZ220051962792QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V and these head bolts if need be: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/95-9...013QQitemZ230043286537QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V.

How do I check for warpage? What tool is needed or is it something you can see with the naked eye? I was thinking there's a special tool for this but I wasn't sure.

I know all these questions make me seem like a complete noob but I'm actually very hands on and technical, I've just never done this before and don't want to pay a shop to do it.

Transmission questions

Is the recommended tranny fluid the "Mopar ATF+3" from Dodge? And does the filter have to be OE or can I just pick one up from Autozone like I did the last time I changed the fluid. I used generic autozone tranny fluid the last time also which I think might have added to the destruction.

I'll be posting pics of the job so I want this thread to be very informative to me in case I run into issues. All help will be much appreciated.

 

[dr1665]

You should remove the cams, but you don't have to. You'll need a wobble extension/socket to get those head bolts loose/out, though. Chances are good that you ca re-use the stockers once, but be damn sure before you re-install them. If they're stretched, you'll get a week or so before the new HG is shot and you're back to square one.

Personally, I'd pass on buying my gaskets online from eBay. Sure, you'll pay more for the OEM gaskets from the dealership, but they're proven to work. If it's important to the longetivity of your engine, do you really want to slap in the cheapest, most generic shit you can find?

I'd also highly recommend you take the head to a shop to be mic'd and milled for the new gasket. This is a precision seal which is very particular about how it seals. If you nick it with a screwdriver when you try to remove the head, you'll probably have leaks plague you for some time.

There's a difference between being mechanically inclined and being mechanically capable. You don't have the tools to prep the head and you don't have the experience to be sure it's done right. Besides, most places charge under $60 to mill a head like this, so why risk it?

 

[1.8laser90]

dr1665 is right, you dont want to put on some cheep gaskets, specially if your considering keeping the car for awhile. Im getting the felpro gasket set from autozone. On all the toppend rebiulds ive done i havent had much of a problem with felpro, and felpro for the 420a comes with a MLS headgasket gasket. the top end set is 99.00 or very close to that last time i checked.
As for the head getting milled/shaved, i would defianly have it done. weather is overheated before or not or even the milage its still smart to have it done.
Im doing the excact same thing to my engine here very soon, it should of been torn down already but i ran into trouble with my back up car and havent gotten to start it yet. just to give you some ideas heres what im planning on doing.

From my knowledge im still on the factory timming belt 150k later its time to replace it... along with all the timming components pulleys, hydralic tensioner and the water pump. i found a kit on ebay with the timming belt, water pump, and both tensioner pulleys for 130.00 which i have found not to be to bad, and everything is NEW, the water pump isnt reman. but it looks like you have already done this step to yours..
Now to the head, my headgasket is leaking oil down the back of the block and has been smoking blue out the exhaust really bad lately so im haveing the head completly rebiult for 170.00. From a guy in town that has done all the work to my cylinder heads for my dsm's he does a excelent job on them and his prices are very resonable. the rebiuld includes a complete tear down, hot tanked, milling the head flat again, new valve seals, valve job and then sands down where gaskets lay so they seal perfectly. then installs everything and lubes everything up. the head when done looks like new, but im haveing a 3 angle valve job done while its in the shop for only 30 bucks extra which seems like a pretty good price.
I would recomend getting the head rebiult before installing it back on the car, that way down the road, you wont have to tear it off again to replace the leaking valve seals.
I dont know if your looking for some extra performance but installing a UDP would be a good idea now that its off, if you get the one off of howellautomotive.com you will also get new acc. belts which is another thing you dont have to worry about later if they dont have to be replaced
Let me know how things go, and things you run into that could help me out.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I tried removing two different heads using an extension and swivel... it's near impossible because of the torque those headbolts are under: I actually twisted an extension completely around trying to get one of the headbolts off, and that was with the cams already off! I found that it was eventually much easier, and much less time consuming to just remove the cams. Remember that you'll need some anaerobic sealant when it comes time to re-install the cams.

As for the headbolts, I wouldn't bother reusing anything TTY because nearly all OEM TTY hardware secures something very critical (i.e. the head, bedplate, rod caps, etc.). New bolts from the dealer are semi-reasonably priced, or you can just opt for ARP studs if you plan on removing the head in the future. $100 or so isn't a bad price to pay for quality hardware that will last you a while.

A lot of people have been checking the trueness of their heads and decks using a simple straight edge. That's kind of risky if you ask me. I think that in most successful cases when that's been done, the circumstances didn't really indicate that warpage would be much of a problem, so they got away with it. I'd just take it to a machine shop and have them put it under a mic or dial indicator to make sure. My machinist measures everything free of charge, which most reputable professionals should do.

Gaskets are important components; especially headgaskets. If you plan on keeping your car in stock condition, at least get an OEM headgasket from the dealer. If you ever plan on modifying it, look into an OEM MLS. Mine is a FelPro gasket. It cost about $80 and was worth it in my opinion.


I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that your tranny uses Mopar ATF+3... I do know that only dealer fluid is recommended to be used. So, since you have to go to the dealer anyway, just ask them while you're there, and I'm sure you'll get the right stuff.

As for the filter, that's your call. Tranny filters aren't expected to filter fine particulate matter, such as an oil or fuel filter is. I'd imagine an Autozone filter would do the job just fine.

By the way, why do you think changing your tranny fluid will help your situation? If you've done it once already, and nothing improved, I'd say it's time to start looking for A/T repair shops or a new transmission. Not shifting past second gear sounds like a serious problem to me...

Finally, whereabout in Fort Lauderdale are you? I know there's a Dodge dealer off of University and Stirling that usually stocks the parts you're looking for. There's another one in West Palm that usually has all the hard to find hardware.

 

[BoostedinSoFla]

I tried removing two different heads using an extension and swivel... it's near impossible because of the torque those headbolts are under: I actually twisted an extension completely around trying to get one of the headbolts off, and that was with the cams already off! I found that it was eventually much easier, and much less time consuming to just remove the cams. Remember that you'll need some anaerobic sealant when it comes time to re-install the cams.

As for the headbolts, I wouldn't bother reusing anything TTY because nearly all OEM TTY hardware secures something very critical (i.e. the head, bedplate, rod caps, etc.). New bolts from the dealer are semi-reasonably priced, or you can just opt for ARP studs if you plan on removing the head in the future. $100 or so isn't a bad price to pay for quality hardware that will last you a while.

A lot of people have been checking the trueness of their heads and decks using a simple straight edge. That's kind of risky if you ask me. I think that in most successful cases when that's been done, the circumstances didn't really indicate that warpage would be much of a problem, so they got away with it. I'd just take it to a machine shop and have them put it under a mic or dial indicator to make sure. My machinist measures everything free of charge, which most reputable professionals should do.

Man, I thought it would be a simple replacement without all the extra stuff. Can't I just remove the head and just have it milled then for the new gasket. Is milling just to clean/smooth/repair the head so that the new HG sits perfectly sealed? And since you're in Fort Lauderdale too do you know where I can find a good and cheap machine shop?

As for the headbolts I guess I'll just get new ones. Can I get the new ones in the ebay auction I listed?

Gaskets are important components; especially headgaskets. If you plan on keeping your car in stock condition, at least get an OEM headgasket from the dealer. If you ever plan on modifying it, look into an OEM MLS. Mine is a FelPro gasket. It cost about $80 and was worth it in my opinion.

Alright, I'll try to stay away from the ebay stuff. I'm keeping the car stock (only have headers and intake now) so I guess I'll get an OEM or I might just get the Felpro from Autozone if it's cheaper.

I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that your tranny uses Mopar ATF+3... I do know that only dealer fluid is recommended to be used. So, since you have to go to the dealer anyway, just ask them while you're there, and I'm sure you'll get the right stuff.

By the way, why do you think changing your tranny fluid will help your situation? If you've done it once already, and nothing improved, I'd say it's time to start looking for A/T repair shops or a new transmission. Not shifting past second gear sounds like a serious problem to me....

I'm not changing my tranny fluid in the damaged tranny, I'm just trying to make sure I don't make the same mistake when I install the replacement tranny and use some generic fluid again. So you're saying that the ATF+3 is the correct fluid and would I have to go to a Dodge dealership instead of Mitsubishi to get it?

Finally, whereabout in Fort Lauderdale are you? I know there's a Dodge dealer off of University and Stirling that usually stocks the parts you're looking for. There's another one in West Palm that usually has all the hard to find hardware.

I'm in Coral Springs so University and Stirling is more south for me. I believe you might be talking about Bill Siedles Mitsubishi. I usually just go to Coconut Creek Mitsubishi or Sunrise if they don't have what I'm looking for. If I have any probs I'll check with both. It's also good to know that I have a Mod/Wiseman a few miles away from me if I need help. By the way, are you currently in Boston or Fort Lauderdale?

 

[BoostedinSoFla]

You should remove the cams, but you don't have to. You'll need a wobble extension/socket to get those head bolts loose/out, though. Chances are good that you ca re-use the stockers once, but be damn sure before you re-install them. If they're stretched, you'll get a week or so before the new HG is shot and you're back to square one.?

I read through the Haynes manual just now and it seems like the camshaft removal is not that easy and according to Paul I'll be better off removing them than fight with the headbolts.

I'd also highly recommend you take the head to a shop to be mic'd and milled for the new gasket. This is a precision seal which is very particular about how it seals. If you nick it with a screwdriver when you try to remove the head, you'll probably have leaks plague you for some time.

There's a difference between being mechanically inclined and being mechanically capable. You don't have the tools to prep the head and you don't have the experience to be sure it's done right. Besides, most places charge under $60 to mill a head like this, so why risk it?

I think I'm mechanically capable to a certain extent and I have all the tools, it's just that I never really did this before and I really wouldn't want to #### up anything. So...I would much rather get all the info from people who know this stuff first. Do you think I'm ok with just getting the head milled and nothing else? I'm not looking to rebuild the head, just wanted to do the HG replacement. Also, will anything need to be done to the block if I have gasket pieces stuck on it?(hoping that I don't)

 

[BoostedinSoFla]

I'll have some pics and stuff up when I start especially if I need help along the way.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

You can get the headbolts in that eBay auction you found. Those are from Bruce (Parts Dinosaur). He's a good guy, and he sells quality, OEM parts.

As for the gasket set you listed... eh. I wouldn't trust those gaskets. Mopar sells a complete upper end gasket kit. Just go to the dealer; you might have to special order it, though.


When you go to the machine shop, just ask them to check the head first. Take it from there: if it's warped, have them mill it; if it's not, replace the headgasket and slap the head back on.

Oh, and if it's dirty, use a drill with a wire brush to clean off the old, stuck pieces of gasket.

Accurate Machine shop, in Davie, is where I get all my work done. Ask for Todd. You can tell them Paul (tell them I'm the one with the Chrysler motor from the white Eclipse) referred you, although, I'm not sure if he'll remember. His prices are fair, Todd's an honest guy, and the work is top notch.


Keep in mind that we have a Chrysler powertrain in our cars. Mitsubishi carries some of the parts we need, but you'll have much better luck finding in-stock parts at a Chrysler/Dodge dealership.

As for the tranny fluid, it's dealer only stuff. That means, don't use anything but what you find at the dealer. Since Mitsubishi and Chrysler did that joint venture a while back, they can cross reference part numbers and find parts for most of each others' models. You should be able to go to either dealership for the fluid, but it's more likely the Chrysler dealership will actually have the stuff.

Since Mitsubishi doesn't really use Chrysler engines now, they decided to stop carrying Chrysler parts in stock, and so you'll usually need to place special orders with them. Although, if you absolutely must go to a Mitsubishi dealership, I must say that Scott, at Coconut Creek Mitsubishi is very helpful, although he doesn't always have what I need.

The dealership I was talking about isn't Bill Seidle Mitsubishi. In fact, I hate the parts counter at Bill Seidle. They're always in a hurry to stop talking to you, and the parts manager isn't very nice.

The dealership I've been going to is Rob Lambdin's University Dodge. It's next to Bill Seidle, but they aren't affiliated. The parts guy there, Eddie, is really helpful. I cracked my crank sprocket when I was rebuilding, and he held the last one in stock until I got there.


I actually live in Coral Springs too, right off of 441 and Sample. Where are you? I go to school in Boston, for most of the year, though. If you want to hold off on this project for about another two weeks, I'll be home and happy to help out. My workshop is fully equipped for this kind of job.

 

[WMD]

Oh, and if it's dirty, use a drill with a wire brush to clean off the old, stuck pieces of gasket.

Using a razor blade would be a safer idea, its the tried and true way of getting this task done. (for the home mechanic anyways)

But if you must use a wire brush, make shure its brass. It might seem like common sence but people do some wacky things.

 

[VelocitàPaola]

I used a steel wire brush... it might not be the safest thing to do for the inexperienced, though.

 

[bullettdsm]

Just jumping in before I go to work, +1 for Bruce at partsdinosuar. Felpro HG will do fine for you. I'm running 10.9 comp and I used NEW stock head bolts (purposely for the sake of testing theory. I have over 7k with hard launches right up to red line. Quite comfortable with stock). I got mine from Bruce. Check/mill head. Yeah, tried the head bolts both ways (w/wo cams in). Way easier without cams. The only other thing you might want to do is valve seals. Cheap and easier to do now than later.

MB