Do I need a trans flush or a new trans?

[RicciDSM]

So the car is a 97 Talon TSi FWD Auto trans. Bought the car with about 140k miles on stock everything then started doing very small mods. The car now has 150k but the trans is acting up. I have no clue when the trans fluid was last changed before I got the car so Im not sure if a simple flush is all I need or not.

During cold starts, Ill put the car in drive and on slow accel the rpms will rise but the car wont move, then it just slams into gear jerking the car forward. So lately ive been letting it warm up before I drive and it doesnt do it that much.

Today though, I was driving and when stopped at a light it feels like its shifting it self from neutral into drive. The car starts jerking a little bit then under accel the same thing happens.


Im hoping all I need is a change of trans fluid Any ideas on what could be wrong here?

 

[the_mork]

This should have been posted in the auto trans section.

It sounds to me like you have a clutch problem, and hopefully for you then it is an end clutch problem which would be an easy fix. Buying a set of end clutches from importperformancetrans.com will set you back about $90-100. The job takes about half an hour and doesn't require pulling the transmission. Having done it a number of times I can do it in about 10 minutes without getting dirty.

Check VFAQ Site - Visual Frequently Answered Questions for more information under the drivetrain section. Also importperformancetrans has an updated video on the replacement that is likely very helpful.

 

[snowborder714]

Moved to appropriate section.

 

[RicciDSM]

I just looked up the end clutch install, doesnt seem hard at all. My question is how would I know for sure if its the end clutch that needs replacement?

The car DOES make a slight whine noise on accel, which also just started to happen.

Thanks for moving this to the right section btw.

 

[bwhite]

My personal opinion on this is check fluid condition and level first. I sounds like your low on fluid and probably leaking it from somewhere.

 

[Redwidow]

If its making a whining noise that usually indicates the front pump is going bad. Also I would recommend changing the fluid and filter. Doing a flush is like changing your oil and not changing the filter. You will run all your new clean fluid through a dirty filter and it wont help anything. Sounds like a rebuild or used trans is in the near future.

 

[the_mork]

If you haven't checked your fluid yet then nothing anyone can say will help you, but it is possible you checked it wrong. Make sure the car is up to operating temp, on a level surface, running, and has been through every gear selector position recently, then place it in neutral and use the e-brake to keep the car in place. Now check the fluid with the car still running.

If the fluid level is fine then I wouldn't expect this to be an issue of bad fluid/filter because usually issues like that happen after driving for a bit or at higher RPM BUT changing your filter/fluid at the same time would certainly be positive as you likely have some clutch material running around your transmission which isn't the end of the world but isn't particularly positive.

It is rare for non-automotive inclined people to change their transmission fluid but if the PO did then it was likely around 75-90k miles and should likely be done again. I wouldn't call it cheap insurance considering you can often get a different used transmission for $200 and the filter/fluid can easily pass $75 but it saves a ton of work not to break a transmission plus you'd have to fill the new transmission anyway.

When it comes down to it a fluid flush/filter and end clutches plus a motor mount inspection (plus preventative maintenance in moving to stiffer motor mounts so that you don't blow up your diff) will likely fix all of your transmission problems. Just changing the fluid and filter will be helpful but not as helpful as a flush in that your tranny can usually hold about 12 quarts of fluid and dropping the pan/blowing out the cooler gets about 7 quarts out but it is better than nothing and often a lot cheaper.

I didn't look at your mod list but if you're looking at much more power than stock or if you plan on racing it at all or even beating on it hard then consider a bar and plate transmission cooler. Changing those things will make your stock transmission very strong and happy with most anything you want to do to it with mild setups. If you want to go with a powerful setup then you'll need at least a shift kit along with those items ($100) or a tcu remap (socketing + chip $150). At that point you'd be capable of holding power reliably with just about any setup that would be comfortable to drive on the street.

 

[RicciDSM]

Yeah Im guessing something definitely needs replacing now whether it be the end clutch or the whole trans. It doesnt even move now. I took it up the block today to put air in my tires and on the way back it was slipping so much that when I parked it and put it in drive again, I can freely rev but it doesnt catch. Reverse DOES sometimes catch at high rpm's but as of now its just sitting... Any ideas?

 

[the_mork]

Pull the end clutches and inspect them. With no movement they should be pretty obviously bad when you look at them. Probably with very little clutch material left and warped steels. Though honestly that describes the current state of 90% of automatic DSMs on the road and the majority of those are driven by people who don't notice any problems.

Order some new end clutches. They are the problem.

Can I take a guess that you've revved the car a few times and dropped it into gear? This is the way that you toast the clutches controlling first gear before you toast the OD clutch. That or you rev with the brakes tights for hard launches. The first is universally bad, the second just takes a toll on your end clutches and heats up the tranny so you would need a good transmission cooler to keep doing it when you need to launch hard (not that either are nice things to do to your car).

 

[RicciDSM]

Pull the end clutches and inspect them. With no movement they should be pretty obviously bad when you look at them. Probably with very little clutch material left and warped steels. Though honestly that describes the current state of 90% of automatic DSMs on the road and the majority of those are driven by people who don't notice any problems.

Order some new end clutches. They are the problem.

Can I take a guess that you've revved the car a few times and dropped it into gear? This is the way that you toast the clutches controlling first gear before you toast the OD clutch. That or you rev with the brakes tights for hard launches. The first is universally bad, the second just takes a toll on your end clutches and heats up the tranny so you would need a good transmission cooler to keep doing it when you need to launch hard (not that either are nice things to do to your car).

Weird, your the 2nd person to ask if Ive done neutral dumps but no I have not. I HAVE brake launched the car though, Its been to the track once with about 3 runs in. Im not gonna lie, the car has seen its fair share of launches. I had a feeling something would happen in the near future, I got the car with almost 150k on the stock trans its obvious theres not much life in it.

So you think its most definitely the end clutches? I mean even if I do change em out and it doesnt fix the problem, I could always use them in a new trans but I just wanna make sure.

Actually, I just found the IPT End Clutch Kit, would you recommended this one? Mainly because this is the only one I could find so far...

 

[the_mork]

Those are the ones I suggest. If you can find someone that can source you Alto end clutches those would be great too (I don't know if IPT clutches are Alto or something else but they are what are in my fast car). If you buy anything else while your at it then it is worthwhile to sign up on their forums to receive a coupon on your order, but I think the order has to be over $100 so get a t-shirt or pick up the filter and gasket while you're at it.

 

[RicciDSM]

So before I order the End Clutches I just wanna be 100% sure that it could be them. Ive been reading that when end clutches go, the only thing that happens is the overdrive doesnt work, but other gears work. My problem is that ALL of the gears are starting to go on me...Is this still end clutche going on me? I just dont feel like dishing out the money for a new trans at the moment, I dont mind the end clutches since theyre fairly cheap...

Thanks a lot btw for all the info

 

[the_mork]

Yes it could still be your end clutches. Brake boosting, neutral-drops, and hard acceleration through first can all cause the low gear end clutches to go before others. It isn't as common but it happens. These cars just have crappy end clutches but they are easy to replace.

Check out my post in this thread for more information on end clutches (post #12)
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/automatic-tranny/376313-help-auto-trans-acting-very-strange.html

 

[RicciDSM]

Ok, looks like ill be going with a new set of end clutches. Thanks a lot for all the help man I appreciate it. Thank god for forums, Id be getting a new trans if I didnt come here 1st haha. Lets hope these new end clutches do the trick.

 

[the_mork]

Also if the car was slamming into gear check your motor mounts as well. They wont affect whether the trans slips or not but once you have things working happily you'd hate for bad motor mounts to cause wheel hop that sends your diff through the side of your transmission.