Cutting,welding the caliper bracket for 2g awd

[duwackerTSi69]

Just wondering if the front knuckle's on the 2g dsm's are weldable for a MiG welder? I know they are weldable, but will it be strong.

This is what id like to do? I picked up some 03 svt cobra brakes, and the caliper bracket is about1/2 inch further away from the factory bracket location. I want to cut the bracket off my 2g awd front knuckle, bolt each one on the caliper bracket and align them so the brake pads are where they need to be on the 13 inch rotors. Tac them in place, use 3/8 flat steel and make some gussets for supports on each side of the brackets and in the center between bolting points. Then take off the caliper, wheel bearing etc and mig each side of the gussets and brackets.

Does that sound like she'd be strong enough?

I made an adapter plate to mate the cobra brakes on my talon, but I don't like the location of the caliper. Because when i got the mounting points to where there was enough material to be strong it will be sitting at a 11 o-clock position. I want it at about 9 o-clock, like factory.

I have a few sets of knuckles to spare, so today ill mock up the drivers side to show better what I mean, and post pictures. Remember, this is just in the air, but i want to know if there is a better way of doing this?

This was just a few minutes in photo shop, ignore the red caliper. The purple line is where I would cut the bracket off the knuckle and in the green is where the mounting bracket will be sectioned out 1/2 inch. And obviously the blue would be the gussets for added strenght., Im sure it was all to obviouse??

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In my mind, that should be plenty strong and then some. What do you master fabbers think?

 

[My1GLaser]

Damn dude, I don't know...I have been a welder for 12 years and I fab mostly 1/4" to 3/4" steel for railcars, so I work on stuff that has to take abuse. I don't know If I would even do that myself.

What are the knuckles made of? Looking at them I would say they are cast, but I am not sure. You are going to have to weld them with high-nickel rods if they are.

I welded a piece of mild steel to cast steel with a regular 7018 rod once to see what it would do. It looked beautiful, no surface imperfections at all. (I'm a great welder ) Granted I was pulling with my forklift, but the whole weld pulled cleanly out of the piece of cast. There are tremendous forces stopping a 3,000lb vehicle at the end of the 1/4 or even driving normally for that matter.

Doesn't someone make an adapter plate for this mod already? I swear I ran into a thread on the Link forums with the Cobra caliper upgrade and the brackets were about $200? Yeah, here it is if you have access. ECMTuning User Support Forums

 

[duwackerTSi69]

yeah thanks for the reply. I don't know that one either. I'm no pro at welding, but I can get some clean beads and great penetration of the joining surfaces. Its kinda cold where i am, so my camera crapped out on me. I just made the extension piece and tacked it in place. And got the caliper where it needs to be. When I get my camera charged up Ill post a pic or 2..

 

[housegsx]

Don't. Just buy/make brackets.
I currently have one of my caliper ears welded on because I broke it hammering off a rotor. I welded the ear on, but it's always in the back of my mind, and it's only on my dd Talon, not on a car with a bbk that I am going to be using a lot of brake. Needless to say, I ordered a new knuckle and will be installing it as soon as it arrives.

 

[My1GLaser]

I'm no pro at welding, but I can get some clean beads and great penetration of the joining surfaces. Its kinda cold where i am

I am a professional welder. If you are insistent on welding without knowing what kind of metal you are dealing with and you end up welding it with a mig, at least preheat the parts since it is probably below freezing there right now. On anything critical when the temp is below 70* I preheat to 150.*

Fire up the grill or your oven and get the part to about 200* minimum, since it will drop temp after you pull it out and get set up to weld it. If you don't, the cold knuckle will suck up most of the heat before you can get good penetration. That thing is think and will retain a lot of cold and your weld will be very brittle. Besides how much moisture is inside the part at freezing temp that will F up your weld. Yes that means you will have to pull your wheel bearings and seals, but if you wanna do it right...

If it is cast then you are screwed anyway because it needs a whole lot more care to be done properly. Maybe it is forged or something, but that rough texture leads me to believe otherwise.

 

[Weapon-X]

Why not just do it right instead of taking the chance.

Get the bracket kit from RTM Racing.

There's know way in hell I would feel comfortable relying on what you want to do.

 

[tkelly27]

Your car, your life, and more importantly someone elses life could be at risk from doing this. My friend welds to his dune buggy knuckles, but it is only 800lbs, only goes off road, and the braking forces from a paddle tire locked up on sand are going to be much lower than a road tire on pavement.


If you must do this and you're not going to do it the right way
YouTube - How to tell the difference between cast iron and steel
determine if it is cast iron or cast steel first. If it is cast iron I can't stress that you not do this enough. Being able to lay a good bead means nothing when welding cast iron to steel. Proper heat control, proper cooling, and proper filler material are crucial. On something like an exhaust manifold, I do it all the time. On something that is stopping the car, I wouldn't dare. If the manifold cracks, I get a new one. If the caliper adapter breaks, you're screwed.

Even if it holds up the first time you stop, if there are imperfections or internal cracks you will get cyclical fatigue and there is no way for you to know that something is going wrong until you are unable to stop or spinning around in circles.

Now you've got a professional welder (for a rally team no less) and an engineer telling you not to do it, I'm not sure what else you want.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

Yeah, I understand and thats why I was asking. I was thinking the gussets would make the world of difference? And its about 30 degrees here and just started snowing. I do have a good heated garage, and I did preheat the knuckle befor tack welding with the mig. I dont have a job at the moment, so I figuired lets spend some time making something. And get the input of all you great humble welders out ther.

I am a professional welder. If you are insistent on welding without knowing what kind of metal you are dealing with and you end up welding it with a mig, at least preheat the parts since it is probably below freezing there right now. On anything critical when the temp is below 70* I preheat to 150.*

Fire up the grill or your oven and get the part to about 200* minimum, since it will drop temp after you pull it out and get set up to weld it. If you don't, the cold knuckle will suck up most of the heat before you can get good penetration. That thing is think and will retain a lot of cold and your weld will be very brittle. Besides how much moisture is inside the part at freezing temp that will F up your weld. Yes that means you will have to pull your wheel bearings and seals, but if you wanna do it right...

If it is cast then you are screwed anyway because it needs a whole lot more care to be done properly. Maybe it is forged or something, but that rough texture leads me to believe otherwise.

I didnt know about them at RTM, I did call them up today and talked to someone that designed those brackets.

Why not just do it right instead of taking the chance.

Get the bracket kit from RTM Racing.

There's know way in hell I would feel comfortable relying on what you want to do.

I would be more worried about someone elses life more then my own when it comes to something homemade like this idea I came up with. I couldnt explain how bad I would feel if something tragic happened to someone because of me??

Your car, your life, and more importantly someone elses life could be at risk from doing this. My friend welds to his dune buggy knuckles, but it is only 800lbs, only goes off road, and the braking forces from a paddle tire locked up on sand are going to be much lower than a road tire on pavement.


If you must do this and you're not going to do it the right way
YouTube - How to tell the difference between cast iron and steel
determine if it is cast iron or cast steel first. If it is cast iron I can't stress that you not do this enough. Being able to lay a good bead means nothing when welding cast iron to steel. Proper heat control, proper cooling, and proper filler material are crucial. On something like an exhaust manifold, I do it all the time. On something that is stopping the car, I wouldn't dare. If the manifold cracks, I get a new one. If the caliper adapter breaks, you're screwed.

Even if it holds up the first time you stop, if there are imperfections or internal cracks you will get cyclical fatigue and there is no way for you to know that something is going wrong until you are unable to stop or spinning around in circles.

Now you've got a professional welder (for a rally team no less) and an engineer telling you not to do it, I'm not sure what else you want.

Now remember guys, I said I wanted ideas and input from people that know their metals that way I can keep everyone and my car safe and happy. I never said F the world, I am making these things and then wishing them the best of luck!!

 

[My1GLaser]

And get the input of all you great humble welders out ther.

I don't think there is such a thing.

Now remember guys, I said I wanted ideas and input from people that know their metals that way I can keep everyone and my car safe and happy. I never said F the world, I am making these things and then wishing them the best of luck!!

Well thats true, and its a good thing to ask when you don't know.

Are you gonna get the brackets? I want to do this mod myself, but I have 16" rims right now and it won't work. I plan on a set of Evo 8 Enkei rims in the future and I will upgrade then.

 

[jericho777]

I would go the bracket route too. It's a safer alternative to cutting and welding your knuckles. Welding cast/nodular iron or some unknown alloy is best left to someone w/experience. You could save one of our lives! Besides brackets are reversible if you change your mind.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Please don't do this unless you have a death wish. The appearance of your beads mean nothing (and everything) if you do not understand the process and the materials needed to make a proper weld to the base metal. I am not sure what the stock knuckles are made out of, but I would guess cast iron. Cast iron requires lots and lots of preheat, followed by the correct rod, followed by an extremely slow cooling rate.

My whole point is that there is so much more to welding than buying a mig welder, setting up the machine to run a nice bead, and pulling the trigger. I wouldn't trust this job to anyone but a professional welder with lots of years of experience with cast materials and I have 3 teachers with Welding Engineering degrees and 30+ years of welding and consulting experience who would gladly do it.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

To all that replied, I did put my order in for the complete set https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16632&cat=746&page=1 I never heard about the hub-centric rings before and didn't know that they were a big deal,.. But when I placed my cobra rotor on my wheel hub, there was a great deal of play between the lugs (about 1/8 of inch or so) and that could shift either which way and cause havoc!! Then I googled the subject and found out that peoples tires have broke off, whole front end assemblies destroyed etc.. Scary stuff.. I am just glad I brought this subject up, because I was in for more then I could have even imagined.. The guy over at RTM was verry insightful and brought up alot of good points that I never thought of..

When I get the kit in the mail, ill take some pics of the install. Should be strait forward?

 

[duwackerTSi69]

Well here's the update for my whole hack job for a big brake kit,...

I got the caliper bracket kit from RTM a week or so ago and I got the red SS brake lines, and hub centric rings while I was at it? Since I got the kit, I had my rear calipers and cobra calipers powder coated fire engine red, and I got those today. My camera is by far not NASA approved, but it worked okay.

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This is what all came in the kit,in the pic there's only one ring because the other is on the car. The brackets were very nice quality, they were 1/2 inch thick iron or steel(not sure). I painted them black to help prevent rusting.

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Hub-centric ring installed

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Bracket, SS lines and rings installed

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Powder coated calipers,still need to be assembled

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3 of them assembled

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All put back together

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Damn cigarettes,but hey, it looks pretty sweet!

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Another one

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The rear calipers

The kit cost me $248, but I still need to bleed the system.I need someone to help with it because I was by myself in the garage.

That's about it, all that in about 6 hours and 11 Bud Lights. So what do you guys think of the project and it's outcome? Its not no Ferrari, but I take allot of pride in my work and what I do my car.
I take that back, it is a Ferrari,..

 

[ApexVIII]

The kit cost me $248, but I still need to bleed the system.I need someone to help with it because I was by myself in the garage.

That's about it, all that in about 6 hours and 11 Bud Lights. So what do you guys think of the project and it's outcome? Its not no Ferrari, but I take allot of pride in my work and what I do my car.
I take that back, it is a Ferrari,..

not bad! with 11 BL's down i would double check those last few bolts just incase

 

[My1GLaser]

Great work!

How much did you pay for the calipers & rotors and where did you get them? What year Cobra are they from? I will be looking into this soon. I have a 1g, but it should be the same parts.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

not bad! with 11 BL's down i would double check those last few bolts just incase

I was already back in my garage to double check everything this morning. I used red loctite when I put it all together yesterday.

Great work!

How much did you pay for the calipers & rotors and where did you get them? What year Cobra are they from? I will be looking into this soon. I have a 1g, but it should be the same parts.

I believe you can get the calipers from 1995-2004 cobra mustangs? I got my calipers at the salvage yard from a black Stang in mint condition. Besides the roof being cut off it... The rotors I got from a friend who is a mustang freek, for $30 bucks.

Cant you 1g guys use the 2g calipers with out modification? If so, then it should work just fine!! The only thing I would think would be a problem is the rotors? What I mean is, wher the hubcentric rings goes to keep the cobra rotor center on the wheel hub. That o/diamater on the 1g wheel bearing has to be same as 2g so the rings can fit snuggly. If you can swap a 2g rotor on your 1g that should do the trick to check the diameter?

Other then that, I may be up to taking the brackets off and having them copied and re sell them to make some of that $248 back? Like $70 shipped or something. RTM charged me $140 for just the brackets https://www.rtmracing.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16632&cat=746&page=1 and the rings were damn near $20.. If I can get enough people that would want these brackets I could make multiple's of them at a company here with Water Jetting?? So if anyone is interested just send me a pm, and we'll get this figuired out.. Thanks guys

My1GLaser, you know you'll need atleast 17inch wheels to clear the monster rotors and calipers right? The rotors are 13.1

 

[My1GLaser]

My1GLaser, you know you'll need atleast 17inch wheels to clear the monster rotors and calipers right? The rotors are 13.1

Yeah, I plan on a set of 17"x8" Evo 8 Enkei rims as soon as I can find a set locally or within a 100 miles or so.

I have the 2G calipers/rotors on there right now and they work better than stock, but I know I need an upgrade before I can road race and drive like a madman.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

I may be able to get you some cobra calipers from an 2001 stang, with rotors?

 

[duwackerTSi69]

Does anyone here have acess to water jet or some machine to copy the brackets I bought for the cobra brake swap? If so pm me!!!

 

[ApexVIII]

Does anyone here have acess to water jet or some machine to copy the brackets I bought for the cobra brake swap? If so pm me!!!

a company already makes them, which im sure you already know. but i forgot what company it is

 

[4g64fiero]

Looks great!

PS you would have to preheat the cast iron to a hotter temperature than 200 degrees to keep it from failing. The reason is that the amount of current you would need to actually penetrate 1/2" cast iron is going to heat up the surrounding area much more than you would think. It would also need a slow cool down from that temperature that cant happen at ambient temps. Not to mention it should probably be welded while in a booth full of inert gas. These are just a few of the considerations for welding brittle metals.

I can hear the tinging now! I have welded cast motor mounts before that lasted a few months just to fail. Its scary how strong a part can seem then just give out.

 

[turbotemper]

Nice kit there. I have the Brembo Cobra big brake upgrade kit for 96-04 mustang gt's i was going to use on a gt i recently sold but i have these sitting around and was going to sell them but if i can use them on my 95 gst i will.

I'd buy a set if you get someone to manufacture them for cheaper. Keep me informed by PM.

Could you please measure the ss brake line. I have ss lines already attached and want to see if they will reach & thread up to the 95 gst.

 

[duwackerTSi69]

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Just figuired I would get a pic of my new rotors for my SVT Cobra brakes and update you guys. Ill get them on asap, and get ya some more pics.. Enjoy