Clutch assembly weld didn't work. Now what?

[Turbo Girl]

After doing a lot of searching on this forum, I came to the conclusion that my clutch pedal assembly needed to be welded. After I let off the clutch, I could reach down and pull the pedal up another inch or so. The cluch wouldn't disengage until I turned the adjustment rod until it was holding on by only a couple of threads.

So I pulled out the assembly (which was a pita, by the way) and it was perfect. There was no wear at all. I got it welded just in case and I still have the same problem.

The car is a 92 AWD w/ a new ACT 2100.

What else could my problem be? I know I could fix it with an extended adjustment rod, but I'd rather really fix the problem.

Thanks.

 

[oldman]

I'm fading fast, hopefully Oldman will be along in a few hours for he had sense enough to go to bed at midnight pacific time. Anyway, we will get it sorted out.

GTM go to your room now, you're grounded for the next 5 hrs without your pc. I had to sideline myself for a little because you know it's bad when you start to dream about welding the clutch pedal.

TG When you bleed, make sure you flush out all the dirty fluids. I went through about a bottle and a half, post back the results.

 

[GTM]

1)
...
2)Therefore, if I would've tried that initially, I would've seen the pedal assembly wasn't worn.

The c-bracket's influence is actually what is keeping the pedal from going all the way up like it wants to.

3) For some reason the master cylinder/clevis rod is resisting coming back out enough that the spring can't force the clutch pedal all the way up when they're connected. Hopefully it is a bleeding issue.

Rip Van Winkle awoke.

2) I don't know how you would have seen the wear without removing the retaining nut. And I don't think you can move the lever by hand even if you removed the clevis pin... maybe if the nut had worked loose. It takes a bit of pressure to overcome that assembly, however, with the nut off and then working the pedal you might have seen lost motion in the shaft and the lever not moving. It is this lost motion that makes all the difference between the system working correctly _IF_ it is worn. Installing a heavier pressure plate just exaggerates the wear when you need it most.

The clevis rod adjustment is incorrect if the lever is _not_ worn and the pedal does not return.

3) concievably the slave is fully retracted and if the Mcylr was not fully home it could prevent the rod from being properly adjusted. However, once you start to bleed the Mcylr piston would then be able to return if the rod is correctly adjusted. You may just have to go over the adjustment one more time after the bleeding.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Turbo Girl]

Between school and work I still haven't been able to get it up and bleed it yet. I have to work tonight, too. So I won't be able to get to it this weekend.

When I begin bleeding, what position should the clevis rod be in? Just what you said earlier? Adjust everything to how it should be and then start bleeding? Or do I want to bleed beginning with the rod all the way out or in?

 

[oldman]

Between school and work I still haven't been able to get it up and bleed it yet. I have to work tonight, too. So I won't be able to get to it this weekend.

When I begin bleeding, what position should the clevis rod be in? Just what you said earlier? Adjust everything to how it should be and then start bleeding? Or do I want to bleed beginning with the rod all the way out or in?

I remember reading some where last year to bleed with 2-3 threads inside the c-bracket, something about generating more pressure if you have to turn it out after bleeding. However I'm not 100% sure why because I can't find that article or thread anymore.

So we have to wait till weekend for the result? That sucks.

 

[GTM]

I remember reading some where last year to bleed with 2-3 threads inside the c-bracket, something about generating more pressure if you have to turn it out after bleeding. However I'm not 100% sure why because I can't find that article or thread anymore.
So we have to wait till weekend for the result? That sucks.

I've been working on hydraulic operated clutch mechanisms for over 42 years and never heard of such a thing. I can't think of any reason to recommed this and can think of reasons not to do so. If you blind the fill hole by pushing the piston in past the first seal it cannot take another charge of fluid without sucking it past the seal. If you have it so far in, it can hit the stop and actually loose slave stroke.

I see no way to generate _more_ pressure, the bore diameters are the same, with a longer stroke the slave could then move more but that's it. The only way change pressure would be to increase the force of the pressure plate. Increasing the Mcylr diameter would move more fluid and the slave would travel further but the pressure would remain the same. Decreasing the slave diameter would give more travel but the pressure would remain the same.

I've never serviced one of these Mcylr's so cannot be certain how the clevis rod is kept in the cylr. One type has a clip and a large washer at the end of the cylr and the rod is held in place this way but just floats. The other _I think_ will have the rod held in place on the piston with snap ring, these will have almost no freeplay when new. If you wiggle the lever from side to side it will actuate the piston which can be useful when bleeding on the bench prior to install.

Just for fun, here is a clevis which somehow doesn't translate from Japanese so ends up being c-bracket.
http://www.bartleby.com/61/38/C0403800.html
http://www.bartleby.com/61/imagepages/A4clevis.html

Cheers,
GTM

 

[oldman]

Well, that's how I did mine, like I said I don't remember why. If the clutch pedal was welded right, with a new master, functional slave, leakless system and proper bleeding, you should have a lot of room for adjustment. I wouldn't suggest the all the way out position though. GTM does know what he is talking about as myself had learn from him in the past, follow his lead and you should be fine.

 

[GTM]

...

GTM does know what he is talking about as myself had learn from him in the past, follow his lead and you should be fine.

You know my secret, evrything I learned comes from Chinese fortune cookies. hehehe
Hope I have license to make a joke...

................

Thank you for the compliment, for a non professional you do very well yourself.

What bothers me is the rate I'm forgetting things which should be 2nd hand and right there each and every time. I no longer get excited about a car, fixing them becomes a chore rather than fun and learning new things. Recycle time.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[oldman]

You know my secret, evrything I learned comes from Chinese fortune cookies.

I didn't know there was any other kind.

What bothers me is the rate I'm forgetting things which should be 2nd hand and right there each and every time. I no longer get excited about a car, fixing them becomes a chore rather than fun and learning new things. Recycle time.

I'm the oldman around here. I think it's pass my bedtime.

 

[GTM]

...
I'm the oldman around here.
...
I think it's pass my bedtime.

Didn't your momma tell you you won't go to Heaven for telling a lie...
...
Does this mean we can talk about you while sleeping. I'll give you a 2 hour head start. Guess Turbo Girl is working late and won't join in our banter.

I always liked my women customers because they asked questions, men on the other hand feel that they are supposed know this stuff and too proud to ask. Many a young mechanic has underestimated that fact and gotten their backside in the wringer when they try to double talk them.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[oldman]

Didn't your momma tell you you won't go to Heaven for telling a lie...

It's probably more fun in hell anyway.

 

[spooledu1st]

Just a little tip. I was having engagment problems on my 1st gen, so I sent my clutch pedal out to be welded by Shep. I installed the pedal assembly and bleed the clutch still engaging right off the floor. Come to find out that my pedal assembly was bent and was very tricky to notice. Shep sent me a new assembly and all my trouble were gone. Shep said that was the first time he encountered that problem.

 

[Turbo Girl]

...
Does this mean we can talk about you while sleeping. I'll give you a 2 hour head start. Guess Turbo Girl is working late and won't join in our banter.

Cheers,
GTM

I always work late. I work at a restaurant that is only open for dinner. I had school on Friday and then I had to go straight to work. I didn't get home till after midnight and I was so tired I just went to bed. I tried to mess with the car yesterday but I didn't really have time to get into it because I had to do homework and then go to work again.

So today I'm hoping to get this bleeding done. I have a little bit to do for school, so hopefully between that and going to work I'll find some time. Sorry to keep you guys waiting so long.

I always liked my women customers because they asked questions, men on the other hand feel that they are supposed know this stuff and too proud to ask. Many a young mechanic has underestimated that fact and gotten their backside in the wringer when they try to double talk them.

If I didn't ask questions I would get nowhere. I try to read as much as possible without bothering you guys first.

I just REALLY appreciate you guys taking your time to answer my questions. Without this forum there is no way I could even begin to attempt this stuff myself. I would have repair bills more than triple the value of the car by now.

I just can't wait to get all this stuff fixed so I can start modding

GTM, you said you are tired of fixing cars. Do you race with your dsm? Tired of that too?

 

[GTM]

...
Sorry to keep you guys waiting so long.
If I didn't ask questions I would get nowhere. I try to read as much as possible without bothering you guys first.
I just REALLY appreciate you guys taking your time to answer my questions. Without this forum there is no way I could even begin to attempt this stuff myself. I would have repair bills more than triple the value of the car by now.
...
so I can start modding

GTM, you said you are tired of fixing cars. Do you race with your dsm? Tired of that too?

It does sometimes make it difficult when things drag out especially when they are very complicated and the thought processes are complex. The fact you read and then ask questions is a lot more than many men which just illustrates my point. Maybe it's a sense of worth that is reinforced when a customer asks questions, however, not all mechanics will give the time or they may feel threatened that someone will learn their skills.

I note the humor in modding I'm glad we are able to help.

I gave up my interest in racing cars and substituted yachting some 30 years ago but was still working as a mechanic. The DSM was my son's car and 1 of 2 that I've ever lifted the hood, there are a finite ways that you can make something work and I've seen most of them.

What course of study are you pursuing? Keep this up and we will turn you into a mechanic yet.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[oldman]

Oh man, you guys are up already? Have I been sleeping since my last post? GTM got sick of racing because he was sick of loosing to kids half his age.

TuboGirl, you've become my inspiration for going back and finally finish my degree after reading your last post, if only I can only remember it tomorrow.

Are you done with the bleeding yet?

 

[Turbo Girl]

What course of study are you pursuing? Keep this up and we will turn you into a mechanic yet.
GTM

Right now I am studying business. I am only doing that for pre-law though. I will hopefully be in law school in a couple of years. I thought about doing mechanical engineering and going into the automotive industry, but I decided to keep cars as a hobby.

GTM, you just hang out on these forums and help us to be nice even though you don't have a DSM? That is simply amazing. I hope you realize how much you help people like me. Seriously, I hate to think of where I'd be without the help.

 

[Turbo Girl]

Oh man, you guys are up already? Have I been sleeping since my last post? GTM got sick of racing because he was sick of loosing to kids half his age.

TuboGirl, you've become my inspiration for going back and finally finish my degree after reading your last post, if only I can only remember it tomorrow.

Are you done with the bleeding yet?

I don't know how old you are, but it's probably not worth it

Once again, I didn't get to bleeding. I was doing stupid homework right up until I had to go to work

But, at work, I had a guy sit at my table who owns a goodyear shop. He said DSM's are notoriously hard to bleed, and that he would do mine with a power-bleeder for free tomorrow.

I may take him up on that, but I'll probably just do it myself. I've come this far by myself, and with the help of you fine folks, of course. But really, I think if I can get that assebly out and back in, I can bleed a clutch.

 

[oldman]

I don't know how old you are, but it's probably not worth it

Don't worry, that inspiration only lasted an hour before I had a cup of coffee.

Once again, I didn't get to bleeding. I was doing stupid homework right up until I had to go to work

I've been sitting on 3k worth of mods for 4 weeks now, if only I can quit tuners for 2 weeks.

But, at work, I had a guy sit at my table who owns a goodyear shop. He said DSM's are notoriously hard to bleed, and that he would do mine with a power-bleeder for free tomorrow.

The old let me me help you bleed your clutch trick.
Be carefull with them power bleeder thingy, I remember reading a similar thread where a guy used those and was told to do it again with the old fasion way with better results. Use the guy for "leg work". Get it? Leg work as in pumping the pedal..
There is a chance this won't solve your problem so it's important that you follow the instructions and leave no doubt behind so you can completely rule bleeding out in case if it didn't work. Remember to fill the reservoir from time to time and that final tighten down of the bleeder valve. Good luck.

 

[zzzwilliams3200]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I have been having disengagement problems for a while now too. I have a shep tranny and after 2K miles when I sent it back because of 2nd gear problems, he told me that my 2600 wasn't disengaging properly. I put the tranny back on and shimmed the pivot ball with one washer. I bought a new clutch pedal assembly and bushings and bled it properly and adjusted it and I didn't get any difference at all, my old assembly had maybe 1/8th inch of play at the pedal end. So I replaced my master cylinder and bench bled it with the kit and then bled it on the car and still it engages an inch or 2 off of the floor. The rod is adjusted almost all of the way out this whole time (besides when bleeding it). I bought a longer slave cylinder rod and used taboo's method of solving the problem, but no improvement. The only thing that I can think of is that my fidanza flywheel that I installed at the same time as my 2600 clutch, came stepped improperly from the factory?? I suppose that will be my next adventure. PS my slave cylinder is not leaking either.

 

[oldman]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I have been having disengagement problems for a while now too. I have a shep tranny and after 2K miles when I sent it back because of 2nd gear problems, he told me that my 2600 wasn't disengaging properly. I put the tranny back on and shimmed the pivot ball with one washer. I bought a new clutch pedal assembly and bushings and bled it properly and adjusted it and I didn't get any difference at all, my old assembly had maybe 1/8th inch of play at the pedal end. So I replaced my master cylinder and bench bled it with the kit and then bled it on the car and still it engages an inch or 2 off of the floor. The rod is adjusted almost all of the way out this whole time (besides when bleeding it). I bought a longer slave cylinder rod and used taboo's method of solving the problem, but no improvement. The only thing that I can think of is that my fidanza flywheel that I installed at the same time as my 2600 clutch, came stepped improperly from the factory?? I suppose that will be my next adventure. PS my slave cylinder is not leaking either.

An inch or two off the floor is perfect but I'm assuming you're loosing that from time to time. Couple more things before you pull the tranny again.

1. SS clutch line.
2. Bleed the system first with the old slave push rod then swap in the extended one. Be carefull not to let the cylinder move and release pressure during the swap.

Good luck.

 

[GTM]

...
who owns a goodyear shop. He said DSM's are notoriously hard to bleed, and that he would do mine with a power-bleeder for free tomorrow.
...
I've come this far by myself, and with the help of you fine folks, of course. But really, I think if I can get that assebly out and back in, I can bleed a clutch.

I just love it when someone makes blanket statements to bolster some level of knowledge. The only difficult aspect is the inaccessible placement of the master cylr which makes the clevis rod free play hard to set. I've used power bleeders before and find they are only useful for brakes which have a problem with anti-dive proportioning valves or ABS.

You know they are going to use the same brake fluid for all cars which I doubt they even bother to check compatibility issues. As long as he flushes the system it won't be a problem, but the price it right. Just don't let him sell you on a bunch of other work that may not be as pressing as he makes it out to be.
.............

Admirably you have done a thorough job, explored almost every aspect of this system and certainly can be conversant on the pitfalls along the way. What you don't want to do is pump rapidly for this can introduce a lot of small bubbles that will collect in pockets and cause you to bleed the system a few days later. These systems 9 times out of 10 don't need bleeding unless you have had a Mcylr failure and didn't pre-bleed before installing. It's always prudent to just crack the bleeder and see if any air comes out. If you have to do a lot of bleeding you can just poke two small holes in the brake fluid container and invert over the Mcylr. This allows it to maintain the fluid level so you don't accidentally bleed it dry.

Cheers,
GTM

 

[Turbo Girl]

Okay, I went ahead and took it into that shop just because I really had no time to work on it myself. He said he couldn't find anything wrong with the hydraulic system and that he thinks the problem is with the flywheel or something else dealing with the clutch itself.

But, from what I've tested, it really seems more like a hydraulic problem to me. I guess my only basis for this is that the clevis rod doesn't come far enough out of the master cylinder, toward the back of the car when I let off the clutch.

Remember, if the clutch assembly is connected to the middle of the clevis rod, the clutch won't come all the way up. The clevis rod doesn't come out far enough. So if I attach the clutch assembly to the very, very end of the clevis rod, the clutch can come up all the way.

I don't understand how a bad flywheel would be preventing the clevis rod from extending far enough out of the master cylinder toward the rear of the car. Could it?

 

[Turbo Girl]

And just to give you an idea of why my problem may be different than others:

It I got the longer slave cylinder rod, this would not correct my problem. I already tried putting washers at the end of the rod and it didn't help.

BUT, I think getting a longer clevis rod for the master cylinder would make the clutch disengage better. Obviously, that wouldn't fix the car the right way, but I thought it might help you guys diagnose where the problem is at.

 

[Turbo Girl]

Sorry, last question. What fluid do you recommend?

 

[oldman]

Sorry, last question. What fluid do you recommend?

I used dot3 brake fluid.

 

[vintagemuscle]

I have EXACTLY the same problem. Has this problem been solved yet? The pedal is exactly the same as turbogirl describes hers.
I just installed:
TRE trans
sbr 3500 clutch
ss line
slave cylinder

My trans will not go into gear when the engine is running at all. I think I have tried almost everything except pulling the trans and shimming the pivot ball. I believe that the fork and ball are in good condition. Is it necessary to shim the pivot ball? Somebody please help.