Building the engine of all engines.......

[weepingskies]

Hey guys, I want to replace my 7 bolt with a 6 bolt engine. I plan to drive my stock 1995 TSI AWD Manual until this engine and accessories are ready to go in...... On top of that however, I really want to make this thing a screamin demon!! I don't know much about mechanics but I do know that you can't just go slap a huge turbo on a stock car, crank the boost up and have a 400hp machine.

So my question is this: I want to build the engine of all engines, what do I have to do? What all needs to be replaced, upgraded and etc...? I want to know anything and everthing that will increase the HP and performance. Anything from a FMIC to a Lighter pulley to cams, fuel rail etc, etc, etc..... Name brands too.

I know this will be a lengthy answer and opinions may very so I thank all of you who take the time to answer it in advance.

 

[focusedrage]

Truly you must do your reSearch. the upgrade list on this site is helpful, also talking to folks and buscher and slowboy will help. you started listing parts, so your on the right track. there are a lot of well used parts out there, and if you want to upgrade everything and anything, jsut do that, im shooting for near 400 this summer with an AGP rs49 and all suporting mods, but you can have alot of horsepower withoyu goiing into the engine internals

 

[clownface]

You should slow down and take some more time to read up about stuff. Instead of just asking such a question. Do the tuning guide stage one and 2 and youll get a 400hp engine or close to it, and you wont even have to crack the engine open.

 

[Wobble]

haltech or super AFC and turbo timer

550 or 660cc injectors
magnecor/ngk/any good wires
1g head and intake
3" intake pipe
fp49 or similar turbo (2g or something)
3 inch TURBO back exhaust with 02 eliminator downpipe
upgraded brakes (if you wanna stop this beast) (3kgt calipers and rotors in the front is a good upgrade, get some brembo drilled and slotted rotors from irotors.com

Greddy EGT
autmoeter or greddy boost gauge
autometer water temp gauge
FMIC.. any really..
Fluidyne radiator...
ngk bpr7es plugs
act2600
a good flywheel, i recommend a fidanza.. thats what i run and they are alot cheaper these days... Act xact is good too but you cant replace the friction surface.
some cams, anything better than stock but dont goo too crazy...
a good manifold.. tubular or ported 2g or evo III whatever ya can afford.
walbro 255 high pressure fuel pump..
a fuel pressure regulator like the B&M one is a nice to have



maby a few things i missed im sure, but thats a gist of it..

 

[weepingskies]

Thanks so far everyone!!!

I have had my car for a long time now and have debated doing this and that to it but have yet to really do anything. My car only has 68,000 miles on it and I have been into the street racing scene here for some time but I have recently decided that I want to build a monster! I was hoping for about 500hp but would be happy with anything over 400hp. Is this possible in our cars and if so, how is it acheivable?

I know I need to do some research and reading but I was hoping for personal opinions and what each person out there thinks is the easiest way to achive it.......

How about doing an Evo1-3 swap? Will that help? I know they have better compression......

Thanks!

 

[MNGSX]

I think he is really talking about a long block here.

6 bolt 4g63 or 4g64 block.

4g63 or 4g64 crank. Your choice. Street and strip use the 2.4 crank.

1g head worked over as much as you can afford or a highly modded 2g head is better if you put enough money into it.

Forged rods and pistons.

0-ring head and block. Use a factory hg with copper rings.

ARP head studs and main studs.

HKS or perhaps comp cams.

Titanium retainers.

HKS or Crower springs.

Sodium filled exhaust valves and hollow stem intake valves like on an EVO.

 

[clownface]

The 4g63 can take about 400 hp at the crank with stock internals, your gonna have to beef em up if you wanna go much more then that. Other then that, Big turbo with supporting mods. Whats wrong with 8.5:1 compression?

 

[98talonAWD]

8.5:1 is great compression- nothing wrong with it at all. 9.0:1 give you the added spool time and a quick reving engine! although with the higher compression you have less of a margine to tune with.

I went with the Wiseco 9.0:1 with Eagle H beam rods... I've been told that it is a reving monster and will producer boost a lot sooner. but only time will tell for sure.

the 2G 7 bolt 4g63 can take 400hp before you get into trouble areas. the 1G 6 bolt 4g63 can take 500+hp before you start worrying about those things.

 

[weepingskies]

Absolutely nothing is wrong with our compression, I just thought higher was better is all........ I am really getting some useful tips here, keep them coming......

What is the difference between a long block and a short block other than the obvious? The long block holds more hp?

 

[98talonAWD]

a long block is the the bottom end and the head. a Short block is just the bottom end.

higher compression is not always better. like i said, you can run into tuning issues that you may not have with a lower compression piston. although it does help your hp numbers and generates more exhaust flow through the turbing housing allowing better spool up.

anywhere from 8.0:1-9.0:1 is a pretty good bet. the stock 1g's come with 7.8:1 compression as the 2g's come with 8.5:1 compression. IMO the 1gs have too low of a compression to put a big 56 trim turbo on it. But im sure some people might disagree.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by MNGSX
1g head worked over as much as you can afford or a highly modded 2g head is better if you put enough money into it.

More than basic head porting isn’t worth it. There are a lot of FAST guys running around with minor port work. All you are going to do hogging out the head is kill port velocity.

Originally posted by MNGSX
0-ring head and block. Use a factory hg with copper rings.

O-ringing is teh sux. Way too complicated to setup properly and entirely unneeded. Cometic hg with ARPs end of story.

Originally posted by MNGSX
Sodium filled exhaust valves and hollow stem intake valves like on an EVO.

Evo valves aren’t anymore THAT much cheaper than 1mm over vavles. If you are In there spend the extra 50 bucks or whatever to go with the upsized valves.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by 98talonAWD
8.5:1 is great compression- nothing wrong with it at all. 9.0:1 give you the added spool time and a quick reving engine! although with the higher compression you have less of a margine to tune with.

Margin? A well tuned engine is a well tuned engine. Regardless of CR. Half a point really isnt enough to talk about. But the higher the better.

 

[98talonAWD]

thats a total of 2 points across the board. half a point per cylinder is a decent amount in a 4g63 motor.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by rdrkt
More than basic head porting isn’t worth it. There are a lot of FAST guys running around with minor port work. All you are going to do hogging out the head is kill port velocity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I dont get how you can say that. yes there are a lot of people that that are very fast with mildly ported heads, but when you put some money into it it is VERY well worth it. Wish i had a video of my head on the flow bench so you could see what it went through. plus the fact that it flowed a hair over 300cfm through each port. and how is that not worth it?

 

[martyboss]

8.5 - 9.0;1 is good we are working on fully buid 2.4 and knife edge crank . on the 95 gsx T60-1 full boost before 3000rpm ,no cams and int manifold no standalone sys. its preety good the price around 3000$but stil testing durabilyty

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by 98talonAWD
Wish i had a video of my head on the flow bench so you could see what it went through. plus the fact that it flowed a hair over 300cfm through each port. and how is that not worth it?

We race cars on tracks not heads on flow benches. Putting 2k into a head is just not worth it. Not when you have guys going 140 and 150 on mildly ported heads. From what I have seen super hogged out heads just kill spool. Its just easier to turn up the boost a lb or two more.

 

[martyboss]

street/strip port fine with big port you will lots tourq,but make more hp of course with efficent turbo [biger then b16g]

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by weepingskies

what is the difference between a long block and a short block other than the obvious? The long block holds more hp?

Take the cylinder head off an engine and it is a short block. Put it back on and it's a long block.

Originally posted by weepingskies
Absolutely nothing is wrong with our compression, I just thought higher was better is all ?

Not always. It depends on the amount of boost you want to run and the fuel you are running on. One boost level at 9:1 may be fine on race gas but to run that boost level on pump gas you may need a 8.5:1 compression ratio. If it were a naturally aspirated engine the max compratio you can burn a given fuel at is best. But with a turbo it depends on how much boost in addition to the static compression ratio.




Lets say we have an OK engine. We have a 1g manifold and head with some work and no cams.... We get ??? a 75% volumetric efficiency. VE is how well air flows thru the engine. Simplified but A 2000cc displacement engine at 75% VE would actually pump 1500cc's of air. Get the idea?

Static compression ratio is just a more accurate name for what everyone talks about when they pick pistons. It just means compression ratio not taking into account boost pressure and the engines ability to pump air.

http://www.turbofast.com.au/TFcompB.html

At 9:1 static compression and 20 psi this actually recomends 110 octane fuel.
At 8:1 static compression it reccomends 105 octane at 20 psi.
At 7.8:1 (1g turbo stock) it reccomends 104 octane at 20 psi.

There is also an output called boost compression on that software. This means this is the effective compression ratio under boost as compared to a non turbo engine with the same dynamic compession ratio. In other words if some theoretical non turbo engine were squeezing the same amount of air into the same cumbustion space it would be a 13:1 "boost compression ratio" (for 7.8:1 at 20 psi)

It is just a good way to look at the effects of boost pressure, static compression and engine volumetric efficency.

As for the octane recomendations I think Rays formula leaves a pretty good saftey margin. Like this is'nt the aboslute minimum octane you need but what makes knock free tuning and keeping an engine together really easy.


Since you said the ultimate engine I will throw this out there too

Lets say you bought a BJ's high port head and matching intake manifold. Then install big cams. Then run a turbo with a really efficient turbine wheel and housing with a low restriction manifold. I'm guessing but I'm thinking the best of the best components could easy hit 90% VE on a bad day. So lets enter 90% into VE.

At 9:1 and 20 psi this actually recomends 119 octane fuel.
At 8:1 it reccomends 113 octane at 20 psi.

As for high compression and moderate boost VS lower compression and high boost... You will make more power with the lower compression and higher boost. Below spool you will have less and it will spool a little bit later than the higher compression but you will make more power.

Lets take the 7.8:1 at 20 psi vs 9:1 at 15psi. The fuel octane and boost compression are nearly identical between these two engines. The effective compression ratio for both is 13:1. You will make more power with the 7.8:1 at 20. It will be a peakier engine.

So for street use run about 2g factory comp ratio and moderate boost. An all out race engine drop the static compression ratio and pour on the boost (provided you have the right turbo to do it).

It's a matching game. Most street guys will be better off at 8.5:1 compression and moderate boost. Its got more low end, less lag and is less turbo expensive. Trailer queens and those on the edge of streetable cars will do well with lower compression and increased boost levels.

Don't listen to some of the honda guys who say that a higher static compression ratio is always better. like 10:1 static compression and 10psi boost They are retarded.

Match everything. Look at the fuel you will run and it's octane. Then figure out how much money you want to spend on a turbo. To make it easy on yourself call someone like AGP and tell them you want to max out pump gas or go wild on race gas. They will probably tell you what turbo to run and what static compression ratio to build into the engine.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by rdrkt
More than basic head porting isn’t worth it. There are a lot of FAST guys running around with minor port work. All you are going to do hogging out the head is kill port velocity.

Agreed

Originally posted by rdrkt
O-ringing is teh sux. Way too complicated to setup properly and entirely unneeded. Cometic hg with ARPs end of story.

Search string Metal headgasket leak

Even when decked the MLS sometimes likes to leak around coolant and oil passages.

It all depends on if you want to build a good solid car or belly up to the my WHP is higher than yours bar.

Run the stock headgasket on a decked block and shaved head with ARP's end of story unless you run a shYtload of boost and or NOS.

Then ring the block and head and use a factory gasket and copper o-rings. Ask that guy who's last name starts with B about that headgasket setup and how reliable it is. Oh yeah.. his name is Buschur....

Originally posted by rdrkt
Evo valves aren’t anymore THAT much cheaper than 1mm over vavles. If you are In there spend the extra 50 bucks or whatever to go with the upsized valves.

I never said to get evo valves. Just that using hollow stem intake and sodium filled exhaust valves is a good idea. From chevy everything from aftermarket highperformance SBC heads thru Z06 vettes stock have hollow intakes and sodium exhuasts. The WRX and evo have them too. Porsche is really big on them. You can get them in many sizes. If you go to the stealership which I do not recomend and ask for evo valves it will be a waste of money and +1mm ss valves would likely be cheaper. But look around and get +1mm sodium filled exhausts and hollow intakes and they will probably be as much as ferrara valves the same size. The exhaust valve will just run about 150* cooler is all.

FWIW you can only go so much bigger on the intake valve. There is alot more room in the head on the exhaust side to enlarge. More gain per dollar will be seen on the exhaust side of a turbo engine anyway.

Many shops copy eachother which is why maybe only 25% of the valves you can sneek in a dsm head are well known.

 

[Wobble]

my idea was realistic based, i didnt know we were going for the "price is limitless" way of thinking where we can build us a 12,000 doller motor here:laugh:

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by Wobble
my idea was realistic based, i didnt know we were going for the "price is limitless" way of thinking where we can build us a 12,000 doller motor here:laugh:

Building the engine of all engines.......

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by MNGSX
Stuff about octane and compression.

All I can tell you is that you need to step away from the text books and out into the real world. You have seen my car right? It makes about 475 AWHP on 94 octane at 23lbs and it does it at a nice fat AFR too.

As for Or-ringing what exactly are you talking about boost wise? I run ran an 11.3@131 my buddy HighPsi91 run a 100shot on top of 33lbs of boost to a 147 traps.

 

[98talonAWD]

Originally posted by rdrkt
We race cars on tracks not heads on flow benches. Putting 2k into a head is just not worth it. Not when you have guys going 140 and 150 on mildly ported heads. From what I have seen super hogged out heads just kill spool. Its just easier to turn up the boost a lb or two more.

i agree with that.. spending $2,000 on a race head is a little absurd. the best bang for your buck with a head is to kinda go half way between porting the cast flash off and going in there and getting rid of everything. little stuff helps your spool up... stuff like knife edged intake and exaust ports(the divider wall), and 1mm oversized valves. things like that arent that exspensive and if you allready have the head off, you might as well do something along those lines if you want to go fast. i get what your saying, but you have to see what im saying also.

 

[MNGSX]

Please don't put anything in quotes that is'nt something I said.

Pull down find on this page from the edit dropdown in IE and enter the word "stuff".. The only time i used it was in the previous sentance.

Originally posted by rdrkt
All I can tell you is that you need to step away from the text books and out into the real world. You have seen my car right? It makes about 475 AWHP on 94 octane at 23lbs and it does it at a nice fat AFR too.

Maybe that is why I said Ray's calculations for octane requirements were a bit higher than the minumum needed. I still think that little calculator is helpfull in showing people how compression ratio, boost and VE all come together.

Originally posted by rdrkt
As for Or-ringing what exactly are you talking about boost wise? I run ran an 11.3@131 my buddy HighPsi91 run a 100shot on top of 33lbs of boost to a 147 traps.

I think more depends on actual cylinder pressure level than boost level.

So you really need to take into account the static compression ratio and volumetric efficiency.

If I were running 33psi plus n20 I would run o-rings. That is just me. I like to overbuild in some areas. I know that if I were HighPsi91 and I went from a 147 trap to 100mph or less because the gasket popped I'd be pretty pissed.

I'm not saying his gasket will just that since I have seen a properly o-ringed diesel engine running 17.2 static compression ratio and better than 60psi boost and it's o-ring job is still going strong 4 years later. I call that peace of mind.

It may add some time and expense to an engine but in the grand scheme of building an entire car the additional time and money is chump change.

 

[rdrkt]

Originally posted by MNGSX
I know that if I were HighPsi91 and I went from a 147 trap to 100mph or less because the gasket popped I'd be pretty pissed.

Interestingly enough when he has blown a HG he has only lost a few mph 5 tops.

Originally posted by MNGSX
I'm not saying his gasket will just that since I have seen a properly o-ringed diesel engine running 17.2 static compression ratio and better than 60psi boost and it's o-ring job is still going strong 4 years later. I call that peace of mind.

That is awesome only problem is that NO DSM motor making 500+ hp is going to run for 4 years without needing to be refreshed.

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by rdrkt
Interestingly enough when he has blown a HG he has only lost a few mph 5 tops.

So he has popped a HG. The seal on a properly done o-ring job is alot stronger.

Originally posted by rdrkt
That is awesome only problem is that NO DSM motor making 500+ hp is going to run for 4 years without needing to be refreshed.

So you have no HG failures untill it's time to take it apart. Works out good to me.