Audiophiles: How's the staging in your dsm?

[pinknuggit]

So I installed my q-forms and I'm running my aura MR5.1 comp set biamped.
I wasn't pleased with the response, so I covered the backside of each panel with a few layers of dynamat, and the freq. response is where it should be.
I've had better results with imaging and staging in different cars, though.
My image is right where the a/c button is (1G), and my stage height is about where the center vents are.
My question is:
What have you done to raise the stage height to about the middle of the windshield? Have any of you ever achieved an image right below the rearview mirror?
I've been messing with my setup all night (crossover points and slopes, aiming the tweeters, phasing), but I can't get it where I want it. I was thinking about placing the tweeters up on the dash facing the windshield, but I would get some timing and possible phasing problems with that.
Any suggestions, or am I going to have to be unhappy with my setup?

 

[Mackzero]

Well... Placement is the most important thing of course. These cars are hard to get the staging right in. Believe it or not, I have done one with the tweets mounted in the top of the door panels that sounded very good, I pointed the mid range slightly, very slightly forward in the stock location with custom pods. The only time I have got the staging to work out good in the kicks is to do a full custom kick panel unfortuately. The Q-forms definately need to be reinforced as they are very flimsey. You should not have to control the phasing if the speakers are placed correctly. What I do is get some velcro and just move the tweets around the dash/door area on each side, and see what you like the best. Good luck and let me know how it goes.

 

[pinknuggit]

yeah, see I lack the resources and time right now to do custom work, otherwise it would all be custom. Q-forms were the quickest, best option I had. I absolutely hate putting speakers in doors without an enclosure. I was thinking about the CDT imaging enhancement kit, but I don't have the amp for them. Either that or the CDT "upstage" kit.
I might find some small .5" tweeters and a tiny 2 channel amp and face them towards each other in the Apillars like the CDT kit does. I would have no idea what to cross them over at, though.
When I was adjusting things the other nite, I inverted the phase on the passenger side mid and it actually created what my stage is now. It helped a bit too on response.

Probably the best stage I've ever had was in a Dodge Intrepid with mids in doorpods and the tweeters deep in the kickpanels. The imaging in that car was right below the rearview mirror (Perfect!), and I was third in points in reginal basic consumer SQ in 1999.

 

[Chuckster]

Car speakers are typically designed to be mounted in a door. They're are IB and aren't made for an enclosure. With that working agaisnt you, it does take lot of listening and fine tuning to make a good kick panel enclosure. Hard work, but it pays off in the end.

Did you add any polyfill inside your kick panels? The size of the vent plays a big part of response too. Maybe try some diy aperiodic over the vent hole?

http://www.elitecaraudio.com/search.php?query=&topic=1
Specifically the article "audionutz on kick panels", says he likes to use a second set of tweeters up higher. That's the best way to raise the soundstage and make it sound like the band is playing on your hood. Surface mount tweeters temporarily mounted with masking tape (or Mack's velcro) should help you find the absolute best positions to locate a sweet spot.

I really suggest getting a mic and RTA software or dB meter with test tones (cheapest option) to adjust the crossovers and find crossover points for a second set of tweeters. Some anomalies are easier to find and fix when they're in graph form. It won't do a thing for imaging, but at least you won't be overloading on highs if you have a second set of tweets.

Good luck and happy listening!

 

[pinknuggit]

Yeah, I have RTA software and i've metered my system to perfection almost.
I use PC Audio RTA light, and I have a behringer onmi mic with a marantz pre-amp converted to 12V. That's where I'm stumped about the extra tweeters, because right now, my system stays virtually Flat up until about 16khz.
I have no problem at all with the frequency response of the system.
But you gotta think that every vehicle is different. Like i've said, I have had many vehicles with a perfect stage, but my dsm is the first vehicle that I've had trouble with.
Also, yeah, most car speakers are made for IB, but you will see better results with them in enclosures. I absolutely hate it whenever you lose all of your hard work in tuning every time you roll the window down.

But yeah.. thanks for the advice.. everything is pretty much in check as far as implementation and response goes, i'm just looking for some placement ideas to get a better stage.

 

[Chuckster]

The tuning is always off when you roll down the windows and ride around in what is then a giant bandpass enclosure.

It shouldn't be too hard to relocate or add a second set of tweeters and retweak for a nice warm sound.

More OT:
I use the Beringer ECM 8000. Too cheap to have it calibrated myself, I found a posted file for it.

Who makes PC Audio RTA? I can't find their website.

 

[devlish]

with my windows UP, the staging in my car is good. not perfect, but very good. my webpage has pics of where my speakers are located. they are aimed towards the opposite side of the car (as they should for good imaging)

the imaging is a little higher than i'd like it, but still very good IMO

~Kurt

BTW, with the windows down... the imgaing changes immensly! it moves a little lower (which is nice...) but way farther outwards! still loud, just looses the effect somewhat though of a nice sound stage

 

[pinknuggit]

chuckster: I use the ecm8000 also. I think i bought it for like 59$ from sweetwater, but it serves its purpouse.

RAL / Realtime Analyzer Lite. . I bit the bucket and bought the full version, and it's the easiest software i've used yet.
I used to use True RTA . It has a preset calibration file for the ecm8000. The only thing that sucks is that my laptop doesn't have a fast enough cpu to use TrueRTA.

Kurt: I wish my image was high! I want mine to be right under the rearview mirror.

Yeah, I think there's no way to avoid having crappy imaging with the windows down.

 

[devlish]

mine is definetely up there. i notice it most just infront of my sunvisor (weird huh?) but i'd prefer it to be directly in front of me. personal preference though i guess. so it's not *bad* where it is... just a few inches too high.

i'm looking at getting Alpines PXA-H701 (i think that's it) 5.1 processor with all the goodies and a nice P.EQ software setup builtin. that should help somewhat i figure by adjusting the freq's just right for my taste. who knows til i try it though.

 

[pinknuggit]

nice, I used to run an G-320 in my intrepid.