At last, the better side of 12.0 in the 14b powered Talon!!!

[Phil1320]

Are you doing anything to help the air escape out from underneath the car? That wouldn't hurt the car on the roadcourse either.

Thanks, thats my car in my avatar. Its back home in CO. I have my 92 with me here in NY while I am in school.

not really yet, the area where the license plate was is open if you look close at the pics, that's it. That stuff does help I'm sure, but I wonder how much at "only" 116 trap speeds. Definitely something to consider though. I just don't want to do anything that creates downforce, just reduce drag.

Yeah, your 2G is killer, after looking at yours, maybe I'll get a 2G for my roadcourse work and keep my Talon the drag car. Many of my friends want it to stay a drag car, we'll see.

Thanks for the ideas.....

 

[Phil1320]

UPDATE: chip came in the mail. Thanks to pneumo!!!(11.5 14B guy)for the promptness of getting it to me, and for helping me in my efforts, and taking the logical next step with my 14b configuration. Hopefully, alot of what worked for him, will work for me, even though our set-ups are quite different considering both are 14b. Was thinking of going back to the track one more time before I install it, just to see the gain from the weight reduction. Not sure if that will happen or not. It will all depend on when I finally go back. The earliest will be in July. I am very anxious to see how the new chip works however. But, I try to never do the next mod until I feel I've maxed the car out as it sits at any given time. I think there will be more in it with driver improvement and another 100+ lbs. out. I think that should be the baseline before I switch chips. Obviously, better launching will be attributed to the stutterbox for sure, but if there is any improvement in ET/TRAP I want to know how much came from the chip and how much from weight reduction.....if that's possible. Lightweight doors are next project, once that's done, I'm ready to hit the strip again.

 

[Gooberlog]

I still have to mod my stock bov and take out some weight, what's going on with the talon? Next trip to the track lined up yet? I want to see what that new chip does for you!

 

[bullettdsm]

He's playing kissy face with the woman right now. Should be back soon.

MB

 

[Phil1320]

Well, it looks like I'm going to make it to the track tomorrow for a rental day hosted by CCDSM.

I didn't think I was going to make it but a friend has lent me a tow vehicle and I'm just gonna rent a trailer. My pickup is only good for 4000 lbs towing which means I need a nice lightweight aluminum trailer to tow with which isn't in the cards yet.

I did not get the chance to put the lightweight doors on. The only differences from last time will be the shorty exhaust, front swaybar removed, and bumper opened for more flow to the intercooler. Stock seat back in for now, not sure this added much weight at all though because the Sparco with side brackets of steel and mounting brackets are almost as heavy anyway. Overall, should be a bit lighter. I only ran 6 passes the last time out, tomorrow I should be able to run 10-15 passes easy without worrying about jumping right back in the staging lanes.

So, would be nice to have the doors on, but as Bullett eluded to, I was away on my honeymoon and then we came back to July 4th and all kinds of family get togethers, which hasn't left much time to work on the car. So, the chip is not in yet either. As I said elsewhere I would probably go back once more before I swapped the chip. I would like to put it in though and get the advantage from the timing changes, but I wonder if I could do that without hooking up the stutterbox.....last thing I want to do is rush and I just found out 30 mins ago that I had a way to get there so.....

Hopefully I can run a bit quicker than the 11.75 pass.

After tomorrow I probably won't run til late August or Septmeber, unless of course the weather decides to never really get to summer!

I'll post up results as soon as I can.

Phil

 

[bullettdsm]

Excellent! Then we'll see you there tomorrow.

MB

 

[joe sobo]

phil, i admire your times and your work, and have a few questions for you. i also have a bone stock car and want to upgrade. i keep hearing that in order to go fast you have to go bigger turbo, but you prove this wrong. i kinda want to stay with a small turbo, or even my stock 14b. to get the numbers that you are running, is the 14b on your car being worked too hard? would it be able to be a d.d?
i have had a few fully built 60 trim cars, but it also cost me about 9,000 dollars and almost a relationship. i'm getting too old to dump that much into another car again. now im where you are as in my engine is in perfect running condition, and i would hate to touch it. for daily driver, would you suggest working with my 14b? or maybe upgrading to like a big 16g?
my last question ( for now) is how do you tune that good with just a safc?

 

[Phil1320]

Excellent! Then we'll see you there tomorrow.

MB

YES!

Will be a great day I'm sure! Really wanted to see that NA record holder run! Next time! See you tomorrow!

 

[vinnybean]

This threads awesome. Good luck tomorrow, and I know someone mentioned this before. But you should check out this site after you test pneumo's voodoo magic chip. DSMAP | bringing NATIVE Speed Density to 1st Gen DSM's since 2005

 

[Gooberlog]

phil, i admire your times and your work, and have a few questions for you. i also have a bone stock car and want to upgrade. i keep hearing that in order to go fast you have to go bigger turbo, but you prove this wrong. i kinda want to stay with a small turbo, or even my stock 14b. to get the numbers that you are running, is the 14b on your car being worked too hard? would it be able to be a d.d?
i have had a few fully built 60 trim cars, but it also cost me about 9,000 dollars and almost a relationship. i'm getting too old to dump that much into another car again. now im where you are as in my engine is in perfect running condition, and i would hate to touch it. for daily driver, would you suggest working with my 14b? or maybe upgrading to like a big 16g?
my last question ( for now) is how do you tune that good with just a safc?

I'm getting older now too, i'm 26, and yes a 12 sec or mid 12sec 14b DD is doable. A big 16g car with some creature comforts could easily do 12's and maybe mid 12's as a DD as well. The bigger you go the more problems you run in to. If you don't want to spend a lot of $ keep it simple.

 

[Phil1320]

phil, i admire your times and your work, and have a few questions for you. i also have a bone stock car and want to upgrade. i keep hearing that in order to go fast you have to go bigger turbo, but you prove this wrong. i kinda want to stay with a small turbo, or even my stock 14b. to get the numbers that you are running, is the 14b on your car being worked too hard? would it be able to be a d.d?
i have had a few fully built 60 trim cars, but it also cost me about 9,000 dollars and almost a relationship. i'm getting too old to dump that much into another car again. now im where you are as in my engine is in perfect running condition, and i would hate to touch it. for daily driver, would you suggest working with my 14b? or maybe upgrading to like a big 16g?
my last question ( for now) is how do you tune that good with just a safc?

Thank you! You can definitely run into the 12's in a daily driven set up on the 14b. I can't speak for any other turbo but the 14b as I have never had anything else. Fonz up here has run into the 11's on the big or evo 16g, I forget which one and he has done it using pump gas, that's key I think for a fast daily driver. You would have to get specifics from him. The 16g in my opinion would be a great choice because you can get them new for resonable money. If your 14b is in good shape you can start there. That's what I did but I never got to the next turbo yet! I'm not such a tuner believe me. I did what I could with the AFC and of course there are better tuning solutions out there that I'm sure would be better as there may be some HP I'm leaving on the table. But, I have always kept it simple and as long as the car keeps getting quicker there is no need to get crazy in my eyes anyway. It seems I've got a decent set-up and the AFC is doing a decent job at taking care of fueling.

 

[Phil1320]

This threads awesome. Good luck tomorrow, and I know someone mentioned this before. But you should check out this site after you test pneumo's voodoo magic chip. DSMAP | bringing NATIVE Speed Density to 1st Gen DSM's since 2005

Thanks! I did not get the chance to install the chip for today. So, no results based on that but I am about to post a new thread about my second time to the strip this year. Check it out! I will check the site you mention out.

 

[joe sobo]

so what im trying to figure out is you have 550 injectors, safc2, and the normal supporting mods, and 14b, how / why if you get this good of times out of stock turbo, does everyone NOT keep the 14b?i mean 20 lbs is not alot of boost on any turbo, yet you went into 11's, i am not trying to be cockey, but what is the secret or magic??????????? cause this would be the best way for me to go also, and money is tight, so if i can even push my awd into the high 12's with the 14b, id be happy and satified.. i have no mods on my current car, and IF i went out and bought every single mod you have and hook up a safc, would i even be in the high 12's? i'm commputer illiterate, so i would have no clue how to use the safc.
now how do you have it set up as external? please explain specificly since my 1g mani is cracked, what would be a good mani?

also, i have a smim, ported and polished head, that i was thinking of throwing on my car when i do a timing belt and h/g with arp's.......using these items with the 14b, would that be overkill?
finally, is there much of a difference between the safc, and the safc2?

 

[Gooberlog]

so what im trying to figure out is you have 550 injectors, safc2, and the normal supporting mods, and 14b, how / why if you get this good of times out of stock turbo, does everyone NOT keep the 14b?i mean 20 lbs is not alot of boost on any turbo, yet you went into 11's, i am not trying to be cockey, but what is the secret or magic??????????? cause this would be the best way for me to go also, and money is tight, so if i can even push my awd into the high 12's with the 14b, id be happy and satified.. i have no mods on my current car, and IF i went out and bought every single mod you have and hook up a safc, would i even be in the high 12's? i'm commputer illiterate, so i would have no clue how to use the safc.
now how do you have it set up as external? please explain specificly since my 1g mani is cracked, what would be a good mani?

also, i have a smim, ported and polished head, that i was thinking of throwing on my car when i do a timing belt and h/g with arp's.......using these items with the 14b, would that be overkill?
finally, is there much of a difference between the safc, and the safc2?

Phil is probably sleeping right now but i'll chime in since i just got off work. For a strong 14b car, start with the basics, do all your maint., check your base timing, fix any boost leaks etc. You need all the help you can get. Second secret is some kick ass driving with a clutch that can take some hard launches. The third and key ingreediant is weight reduction. If your making less than 300whp out of a 14b, make it easier for that underpowered snail to push your car through the traps. Phil's car is light as feather and he has done more than just take out weight. He has installed parts with only purpose of weight savings. For the 14b that's the name of the game. My car right now weighs a somewhat hefty 2,820 pounds w/o me and a 1/8 tank of gas and i'm running high 12's w/o any tunning.

Internal gate is ok for the 14b, just check your turnine housing when you pull of that cracked manifold and inspect the hole where your wastegate flapper seals and check it for cracks. This will leak lots of boost if the cracks are bad. A 2g or ported 2g or even EVO3 exhaust manifold is a good and cheap upgrade for a DD 14b car.

The intake manifold, polished head, hg, head studs would all be overkill on the 14b set up but I would say only the intake mani might hurt your performance. The intake will help with top end power but the 14b runs out of power in the higher rpms. All of the other stuff should be ok and help down the road if you upgrade. Good luck and hit the track.
Travis

 

[Phil1320]

Travis--thanks!!! Good summary of it all for sure. You hit all the key points!

Here's my six word summary:

SEAT TIME

WEIGHT REDUCTION

GOOD POWER


Not many people I see ever maximize the particular set-up they run. They don't get much seat time, are unhappy with the results, and move on to a BIGGER set up with more HP and most of the time are barely faster. They go to the track once and expect the world out of the car. This is the WRONG approach IN MY OPINION. I was not able to afford much for my Talon in the early years and watched people upgrade to 16 and 20G turbos, then Green and Red. And, sure, I was in admiration, but, it's what started my quest for above and beyond speed with the stock turbo...and I just stuck with it as I was able to go faster than many with big turbos back then....this is where the weight reduction started to pay dividends. Best part is that it didn't cost anything. At my level now, weight reduction costs. Flywheel, driveshaft, carbon fiber, lexan, etc. Every little thing is going to make a difference, or it's not and you eliminate that particular change. Process of elimination of sorts.

As Travis stated, you can have a mid-high 12 second 14b car without getting crazy with weight reduction. One of the best things about our cars is they will move out at stock weight, it just takes a decent running car, with about 18 psi. Good luck!

 

[joe sobo]

thats totally true. i do have plenty of 1/4 track time, but most of it was with my 1970 340-4 speed duster running high 11's, i took my last fully built 97 awd and the best i could get out of the car was an 11.07, and i let my good friend run it down the track at a 10.97, so im sure i do need some more run time. as far as the weight is concerned, i really don't want to loose ANY of my interior for i have two young ones' .
phil, about how much horsepower do you estimate that you have?

 

[Phil1320]

thats totally true. i do have plenty of 1/4 track time, but most of it was with my 1970 340-4 speed duster running high 11's, i took my last fully built 97 awd and the best i could get out of the car was an 11.07, and i let my good friend run it down the track at a 10.97, so im sure i do need some more run time. as far as the weight is concerned, i really don't want to loose ANY of my interior for i have two young ones' .
phil, about how much horsepower do you estimate that you have?

Well, I think it sounds like you can drive your car for sure. At only a tenth away from your friend, that's not bad at all. If he was a second quicker, then you might have work to do. I understand about not losing interior. I totally respect a full interior as well. My path has been different that's all.

My car made 295 AWHP and 337 TQ .....

 

[bullettdsm]

Not many people I see ever maximize the particular set-up they run. They don't get much seat time, are unhappy with the results, and move on to a BIGGER set up with more HP and most of the time are barely faster. They go to the track once and expect the world out of the car.

Lol, you and I were JUST talking about that at the track. Small world.

How true this is; guys will spend a couple of days at the track on one set-up and say that's all they could get out of it. Then its turn up the boost, replace the turbo, spray nitrous etc. as opposed to working that guy in the driver seat.

MB

 

[gsxMike]

Congrats man, good work.

 

[Gooberlog]

Turbo back exhaust, fuel pump, 550s, 2g maf, logger, boost controller, intake with K&N, boost gauge, clutch, replace cracked manifold and maybe upgrade to a 7cm turbine housing "from my experience seems to help a lot", adjustable rear shocks so you don't rub the rear fenders to the rear tires like i did, and all your maint. This should put you somewhere in the 12's with a good running 14b car with decent driving. And if your close but not close enough, take out some weight, for every 100 pounds removed you take off about 1/10 your 1/4mile e/t. Good luck, and like Phil said you get a lot more out of it once you max out your set up. The 14b has so much to offer and many people take them for granted. I want to see a 12.40 or better on my car and then i'd like to upgrade to a HX-35 and upgrade the fuel and tuning. Once i run low 12's with the 14b making around 275whp a well tuned HX-35 should make around 400whp on pump gas which = silly fast e/ts. I'm not being hypocritical though, i've logged more 1/4 mile passes with a 14b turbo than all other passes combined since i've been driving. I'd like to max this set up out and then push it some more with a bigger turbo...on stock engine and trans that is.
Have fun and good luck.
Travis

 

[Phil1320]

Lol, you and I were JUST talking about that at the track. Small world.

How true this is; guys will spend a couple of days at the track on one set-up and say that's all they could get out of it. Then its turn up the boost, replace the turbo, spray nitrous etc. as opposed to working that guy in the driver seat.

MB

Yep. It's been somewhat the norm from where I sit. But, it's a choice. Just not our choice!

Phil

 

[Maas]

Saw this on dragtimes.

Congrats.

 

[Phil1320]

Saw this on dragtimes.

Congrats.

DSMtimes maybe? Thanks for the props, much appreciated