Are RM sways the stiffest? Still too much body roll.

[jacobevan611]

As the title says. I currently have RM sway bars front and rear on my fwd 2g. I still feel as though there is too much body roll. I want the car to be more flat when cornering. If you look at my profile pic you can see all of the body roll I got during a recent track day. I have RM sway bars, tokiko blue shocks and springs. I just want less roll. Is there other sway options. I mean even the aftermarket RM bars which are much bigger than stock are still puny. I look at my friends rx8 and his front sway is double as thick as mine. Bottom line is I want less body roll.

 

[lilbro717]

You can try the tanabe or godspeeds rear sway bar. But is the car understeering or is it just body roll?

 

[97gst_spyder]

The Tokico white spring/strut setup. Thats what I have and its very stiff. Or even better, get coilovers.

 

[jacobevan611]

You can try the tanabe or godspeeds rear sway bar. But is the car understeering or is it just body roll?

godspeed is garbage and I doubt Tanbe is as good as my RMs. Its body roll not understeer.

The Tokico white spring/strut setup. Thats what I have and its very stiff. Or even better, get coilovers.

I asked about stiffer sway bars and fyi there called illuminas.

 

[Flash]

Sways bars should be secondary to spring rates. For example, you can't run stock springs and throw a massive sway bar on and hope it stops body roll, it just doesn't work that way.

Why do you want to stiff everything up? I would change spring rates if you really want to, but it depends on the track.

 

[jacobevan611]

Sways bars should be secondary to spring rates. For example, you can't run stock springs and throw a massive sway bar on and hope it stops body roll, it just doesn't work that way.

Why do you want to stiff everything up? I would change spring rates if you really want to, but it depends on the track.

Thanks. I am thinking about having ground control make me some custom rate springs. I need suggestions. My car weighs in at stock weight around 2900 lbs. What rates do you recommend for front and rear.

 

[Flash]

Thanks. I am thinking about having ground control make me some custom rate springs. I need suggestions. My car weighs in at stock weight around 2900 lbs. What rates do you recommend for front and rear.

I would take a look at Hyperco. I have heard a lot of good things about Hyperco's product in the motorsports community. They will test each spring and write the real rate on the spring so it helps match everything up. You may buy 500lb springs, but in reality it may be 498 and the other might be 499 or 496.
Now it may not matter a whole lot to us DSMer's, but I thought I'd list another option for you to look at.

 

[jacobevan611]

I would take a look at Hyperco. I have heard a lot of good things about Hyperco's product in the motorsports community. They will test each spring and write the real rate on the spring so it helps match everything up. You may buy 500lb springs, but in reality it may be 498 and the other might be 499 or 496.
Now it may not matter a whole lot to us DSMer's, but I thought I'd list another option for you to look at.

Thanks, and it does matter to me. What rates do you reccomend though. I want like a 1.7 inch drop.

 

[snowborder714]

Hyperco would also be my recommendation for springs. They are going on my car in the spring (in the DG setup I built).

I believe I gave you rate recommendations in your other thread.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/han...-handeling-gurus-needed-what-camber-best.html



Can you even look at a quality set of springs in relation to a drop? I don't think that's the appropriate way to approach it. Either you want a certain spring rate (which should be more important) or you want a drop. The only way to have both is a coilover setup, which is highly recommended if you track your car.

 

[dsm03]

Thanks, and it does matter to me. What rates do you reccomend though. I want like a 1.7 inch drop.

H&R Sport Springs

Front:1.7 drop
Rear: 1.4 drop


Personally, have ran them in my previous 2G, were Great!

 

[greengoblin]

A lot of people are moving over to a BBSS(big bar soft spring) set up on cars these days. On our cars your going to run in to the fact that the mounts for our sway bars will not be stout enough to handle and uber big sway bar without flexing or worse tearing. If you don't have a good coil over setup start there then look into custom sway bars.

Kevin

 

[ACM]

What wheel/tyre package do you run on the track ? What are your hot pressures ? Have you measured your tyre temperatures ? What lateral G are you pulling ? You appear to indicate your car neither understeers nor oversteers - true for every corner phase ? When it lets go it goes into a 4 wheel slide ?

Part of your problem is you don't have dampers for the job, you need a boat-load more low speed compression that you'll ever see from Blues (never mind rebound).

I run RM front and rear on two of our 2Gs, one has Penske 8760s with 800f/650r, and the other runs Koni/GC with 500/350 springs. Neither car rolls a great deal, the Penske car has the more comfortable ride.

Why do you want a "1.7" drop - have you determined that is the sweet spot for your camber curve ? For that matter what are you running for camber ?

Oh, part of the reason your friend's FD has less roll is simple physics - its CoG is about a foot lower than ours

 

[TSiAWD666]

There aren't thicker rollbars than those I don't believe. However, I'm betting the problem you're seeing is actually due our suspension geometry stock on a lowered car. I believe the geometry on our cars when lowered doesn't work right resulting in excessive pitching, sooner than you would want. Been a while since this was explained to me, and I don't have the technical vocab to accurately describe it further.

The resolution is a modification of the front subframe to raise the lower control arm mount points. Drew (gixxerdrew) taught me this. I have this modification on my car and I can tell you it solves the issue of excessive rollover that sway bars don't fix on a lowered 2g dsm. The car finally doesn't pitch into a turn immediately, and stays flatter like my Evo. It's really a cool mod, but expeeeeensive. Robert Fuller of Robispec is the fellow who built the mod for Drew, me, and I dunno who else, and so you'd want to talk with him about it if you want to buy a modified subframe.

Edit - I only know this mod works on a turbo 2g. No idea if the subframe is the same on a non-turbo as I have never been under one of those and don't have my service manual with me to check.

 

[jacobevan611]

Hyperco would also be my recommendation for springs. They are going on my car in the spring (in the DG setup I built).

I believe I gave you rate recommendations in your other thread.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/han...-handeling-gurus-needed-what-camber-best.html



Can you even look at a quality set of springs in relation to a drop? I don't think that's the appropriate way to approach it. Either you want a certain spring rate (which should be more important) or you want a drop. The only way to have both is a coilover setup, which is highly recommended if you track your car.

I Forgot about that. Sorry. Alright let say I got a 600 front rate and 400 rear. What dampers should I pair with that? Would illuminas work or konis?

What wheel/tyre package do you run on the track ? What are your hot pressures ? Have you measured your tyre temperatures ? What lateral G are you pulling ? You appear to indicate your car neither understeers nor oversteers - true for every corner phase ? When it lets go it goes into a 4 wheel slide ?

Part of your problem is you don't have dampers for the job, you need a boat-load more low speed compression that you'll ever see from Blues (never mind rebound).

I run RM front and rear on two of our 2Gs, one has Penske 8760s with 800f/650r, and the other runs Koni/GC with 500/350 springs. Neither car rolls a great deal, the Penske car has the more comfortable ride.

Why do you want a "1.7" drop - have you determined that is the sweet spot for your camber curve ? For that matter what are you running for camber ?

Oh, part of the reason your friend's FD has less roll is simple physics - its CoG is about a foot lower than ours

I'm running 225/45/17 dunlop direzza starspecs. They have hardly any sidewall flex. My cold pressures are around 35 and hot around 42. I am unsure of lateral gs. Low speed corners and slalom type turns I over-steer more but long sweeping turns I tend to under-steer on. My camber is 1 degree in front and 1.3 in back I plan to add more camber all the way around though. What dampers or coils do you recommend? I don't car if my ride is comfortable as long as it handles good. I didn't say 1.7 is the sweet spot for my camber curve, its just the height I would like to sit at. I can adjust camber accordingly.

- Jacob

 

[Flash]

I'm running 225/45/17 dunlop direzza starspecs. They have hardly any sidewall flex. My cold pressures are around 35 and hot around 42. I am unsure of lateral gs. Low speed corners and slalom type turns I over-steer more but long sweeping turns I tend to under-steer on. My camber is 1 degree in front and 1.3 in back I plan to add more camber all the way around though. What dampers or coils do you recommend? I don't car if my ride is comfortable as long as it handles good. I didn't say 1.7 is the sweet spot for my camber curve, its just the height I would like to sit at. I can adjust camber accordingly.

- Jacob

I really think the best way for all these knowledgeable people to help you is if you went to the track and recorded some numbers. Take tire temps (insider, middle, outside), and give some valuable feedback on how the car feels. As of now, we don't know what track it is, etc... Maybe someone here has experience at that track and can further help you.
BTW, your cold pressures seem too high for the track.

 

[cantgo2fast]

One thing to consider is that since the spring-swaybar-spring is a set of springs in series. With springs in series, the resulting overall spring rate is dictated by the SOFTEST spring. You could be running into an issue, like others have posted, that your spring rates are not matched very well. If your sway bar is significantly stiffer than your suspension springs the sway bar is just going to continue to depress the springs instead of acting in torsion ass its intended to and you'll get body roll. When your swaybar spring rate is much higher than the outer springs it acts more like a giant infinitely stiff bar across the chassis. And vis versa if the sway bar is too soft then when the springs deflect its like theyre pushing on a limp noodle and it all gos back down the toilet.

Picking a set of springs across the back that all match in spring rate will give you the most consistent vehicle response. It might not be the BEST vehicle response but it should be more consistent and then you can go from there matching the right components together. Its very hard to do wit ha street car where its hard to find real data and testing is expensive and time consuming. (track days, multiple sets of springs)

Everybody above me is right, I would look at your spring/damper setup, up the spring rates however much you want. maybe equal to the increase in stiffness of the sway bars RM vs stock?

Obviously there are a million other stiffnesses and spring rates that are in play here but this is why vehicle dynamicists make big bucks.

As for "drop" there is no magic number but generally lowering the center of gravity of a street car like ours, when done properly, will change a vehicles response characteristics more versus any other change in setup. This is why I have coilovers, theyre not great, I can fiddle fart with that stupid knob all I want and it probably changes the damping rates but in what way or enough that I could feel, who knows. Dropping the car on the other hand THAT even I can tell the difference.

Sorry for the essay but my vehicle dynamics class is starting to pay off

 

[ACM]

Repeat question - what width wheels do you have the Star Specs mounted on ? I'm no track junkie but those pressure sounds surprisingly high - reasonable for Solo, but not high speed work.

Right now you have no front camber and a cheap soft street suspension - both of those need fixing.

Based on the thread linked above, I think you need to change your approach.

Firstly lowering a car is a means to an end, not an end in of itself. The optimum ride height is that which puts the suspension in its geometric sweet spot. If you do not care about that, and only about achieving your 1.7" drop, then we're all flogging a dead horse here. You have most of your answers in the other thread - band-aiding bad suspension is pointless, and the band-aid you're proposing is actually dangerous - overly stiff a/r bars cause nasty behaviour at the limit, and quite unpredictable wet weather handling. To say the least.

First, step back, check your bank account and decide how much you have to spend. You need dampers, springs, mounts, and camber to start with. After that you can start fine-tuning. When you post your budget we can start to suggest directions you can head in, but without knowing how much you have to spend we're spinning our wheels.

Sorry if I'm coming off a bit snotty, that's not the intent.

 

[snowborder714]

Charles, not to take this too far off topic, but do you usually have a recommended starting point for non-R comp tires on a road course (say, the Star Specs in a 245 size on an 8" wheel)? Or is this something you'd more recommend me get out my IR temp gun and just play with all day/weekend at the track?

 

[okm12346]

This is the biggest sway bar available. Its made by Addco and it is 22mm. Its made for 3g Eclipse, so you need to have the 3g Eclipse or 8g Galant rear lower control arms. Since its for 3g Eclipse it'll fin only FWD cars. There's also the ST (suspension technique) sway bar which is also 22mm for 3g Eclipse.

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These pics are of the Addco sway bar installed on my 7g Galant

 

[UofACATS]

The car rides on the springs. Mine has very little roll, and I'm on stock sways.

I noticed your profile only lists the rear RM sway bar, is that still accurate? It is irrelevant how "puny" the RM bars look vs RX-8 bars, the rear bar increases stiffness 80% vs. the oem piece, that's significant to say the least.

If you want a larger (stiffer) rear say bar RRE makes a "custom" version.

 

[jacobevan611]

Okay let me get one thing straight. I am not by any means trying to make a race car. I want something that handles extremely well though. ACM, my wheels are 17 x 7 and i don't have money for new ones at the moment. Also, I just recently got the starspecs so I don't plan on getting a wider weal for a while. With that said my offset is 40 and i recently isntalled 10mm spacers in the front and 15mm in the rear which I feel helped with handleing because I have a wider roll center now.

Anyways, I've heard about using a 3g rear bar. that aftermarket aabco one looks huge. If I could get some 3g rear control arms it will bolt right up correct? Also will the car oversteer to much with that big of a rear bar? I know it will hellp body roll significantly but i'm jsut worried about the oversteer factor since the rm bars are matched to each other.

And ACM I plan to run 2 degrees in front and no more because I can't afford to be going through tires hopefully that is enough or close to enough.

Once I save up enough money I plan on getting bc coilover.(I heard there very good) Thanks for the help everybody. It is appreciated.

 

[1gcrazy]

This is a little off topic but where can you find those 22mm rear sway bar bushing and will they fit a 1g?

 

[ACM]

OK, these comments give us much of the data we need to work with. Your suspension budget is below that of a higher end OTC kit, and your car is a daily driver. So, we can rule out Penske, Ohlins, Moton and a few other suppliers. If you plan on coilovers in a few months, I would stick with what you have and learn to drive around the problems presented; adding to your driiving skills is never a bad thing, and in this instance it will save you money as well.

Further, since you are planning to purchase a higher end kit later on, it would be beneficial to have a setup you can sell on, and recoup some of your investment ? How long before you put out for the coil-over kit - weeks, months, a year or so ?

If you do go with an interim setup, you should base it around Konis, for the best resale value, and around stock upper mounts for minimal outlay. As for springs, you want the stiffest you can find, since very few OEM-replacement springs are actually stiff. This is why the Eibachs fail so miserably, they're barely any stiffer than stock, which are already too soft. There are 2 or 3 sets of H&R which are stiffer, the rates have been published on this forum somewhere (jtmcinder), I would suggest the stiffest of those. This won't hurt the ride too much, unless you end up on the bumpstops, in which case you'll need to raise the ride height somewhat - so long as you keep your current suspension to hand, ride height adjustments will be relatively painless. When you assemble the springs and dampers, slide a thick O-ring over the damper shaft, this will allow you to measure suspension travel.

When you move to a full coil-over kit you will have several to choose from. At this point in time I believe the best performing kit is from KW, the Variant 3, though may change by the time you are looking. Evaluating suspension kits is very difficult, depending on the environment and use.

I would stay away from a bigger rear bar - you'll get more problems than solutions.

Camber doesn't wear tyres significantly, toe settings do. Run about -2.5* front camber, adjust the rear to balance. My guess is you'll want slight toe in for road course duty, so I doubt you'll see any geometry induced excessive tyre wear - you'll get a lot more from excessive corner entry speed than you will from -2.5* camber !

Hope this helps

Okay let me get one thing straight. I am not by any means trying to make a race car. I want something that handles extremely well though. ACM, my wheels are 17 x 7 and i don't have money for new ones at the moment. Also, I just recently got the starspecs so I don't plan on getting a wider weal for a while. With that said my offset is 40 and i recently isntalled 10mm spacers in the front and 15mm in the rear which I feel helped with handleing because I have a wider roll center now.

Anyways, I've heard about using a 3g rear bar. that aftermarket aabco one looks huge. If I could get some 3g rear control arms it will bolt right up correct? Also will the car oversteer to much with that big of a rear bar? I know it will hellp body roll significantly but i'm jsut worried about the oversteer factor since the rm bars are matched to each other.

And ACM I plan to run 2 degrees in front and no more because I can't afford to be going through tires hopefully that is enough or close to enough.

Once I save up enough money I plan on getting bc coilover.(I heard there very good) Thanks for the help everybody. It is appreciated.

 

[jacobevan611]

Good info! Thanks. Going back to what you said about finding the stiffest spring possible: I've been doing some research and contacting manufactures about spring rates. I think the H&r race (stage 3) will be perfect for me. They drop the car 2 inches in the front and 1.75 in the rear. I'm guessing a 2 inch drop in the front will put me right about -2.25 degrees camber so that is perfect. The part that sold me is this:
The tokico springs I have now are 285 front 160 rear. Now with that's being said H&r race are 430 front and 260 rear. (almost double as stiff as what I have now) so this seems perfect. The springs are a ton stiffer and the drop will give me ideal camber. What do you think?

 

[Boug]

This is a pretty nice thread. I learned a lot and plan to follow a similar path.