Alcohol / Water Injection Questions!

[Turblown]

I have searched and not found and exact answer...

I'm looking to max out the 14b by using Alcohol / Water Injection. I am assuming that I will need to upgrade fuel injectors first, so the injection kit will fall after fuel injectors in my "upgrade path." Many on this site say that the 14b is less efficient past 17~19psi due to it heatsoaking. I would like to run 22psi+ if possible. Here is my question:

Will a standard Alcohol / Water Injection kit make it possible to run 22psi+ safely?

OR... if I added a Pre-Turbo nozzle in the intake pipe (just an idea) would the 14b be more efficient at higher boost (22psi+) levels?

Thanks for your input!
-Turblown

 

[97TSIAWD]

Actually I use what steve chelupsa recomends and what has been proven over and over by the GN community. My friend with a GN has also used this mixture to run low 11's high 10's with a basically stock GN by turning the boost way up, do to the help of the alcohol and no knock/detonation. In my experience it is a better route, but no doubt others have used different things and found just as good results, as you have.

 

[coolingmist]

I don't agree...even prior to the throttle body, under part throttle situations you do see vacumn. Personally I always put a check valve right before a nozzle. I think of it as a second barrier for preventing water from getting sucked into the engine.

If you have a solenoid you have no reason for a checkvalve. A good solenoid like ours is normally closed. Unless your in boost, its closed. If it fails, it stays shut.

Its not possible to draw water under vacuum when you use our solenoid.

Thanks.

 

[doug]

If the solenoid were to somehow happen to fail, would there be any indication (other than lots of knock)? Wouldn't your clogged nozzle detector be able to notify of that as if it WERE a clogged nozzle?

 

[jimmy169]

http://www.coolingmist.com/detail.aspx?pid=045

Just got that kit in with the 100psi water pump upgrade. I'm very excited about this, and will run it through the windshield washer fluid reservoir and will be using windshield washer fluid, from what I've heard, it's 50% water, 49% methonal, and 1% blue dye, should be very interesting!

 

[Turblown]

Just got that kit in with the 100psi water pump upgrade.

If I can ask... how much did you pay with tax and shipping? Are you using the Reservoir in the engine bay?... if so... take some pics and let us know how the install goes... I plan on doing a similar setup... Thanks!

 

[aleccolin]

http://www.coolingmist.com/detail.aspx?pid=045

Just got that kit in with the 100psi water pump upgrade. I'm very excited about this, and will run it through the windshield washer fluid reservoir and will be using windshield washer fluid, from what I've heard, it's 50% water, 49% methonal, and 1% blue dye, should be very interesting!

I was wondering about this, and I found this MSDS sheet for what appears to be a good example of standard "blue" windshield washer fluid, almost all of which claiming freeze protection to 20 below.

http://www.douglasproducts.com/commercial/msds_ww.html

According to this, the composition is 2/3 deionized water, 1/3 methanol. Still damn good for $.99

Other varieties claiming freeze protection as low as 40 below MAY be simply higher concentrations of methanol in the mix, most with a different color dye (like purple) instead of blue.

EDIT NOTE: A couple other msds sheets I've found for different brands confirm that this 1:2 methanol to water mixture is quite common for the (blue) washer solvents, but SOME do also list among their components and industrial soap, generally less than 3% total volume. Not sure how this might affect the engine or injection system components, but it might not be good.

 

[DSM90AWD]

Since we're on the subject.. at what capacity (flow/pressure differential) would a 100psi pump not be enough? I ask as see other vendors offering much higher flowing pumps (140psi-220psi) in most applications

 

[kicker91laser]

Since we're on the subject.. at what capacity (flow/pressure differential) would a 100psi pump not be enough? I ask as see other vendors offering much higher flowing pumps (140psi-220psi) in most applications

A 100 psi pump should be fine, some are even using a 60 psi pump, I will be using a 100 psi pump in the near future on both my 1g and my 89 colt gt turbo

 

[Turblown]

Since we're on the subject.. at what capacity (flow/pressure differential) would a 100psi pump not be enough? I ask as see other vendors offering much higher flowing pumps (140psi-220psi) in most applications

http://www.darklightning.com/gi/wi.htm

I'm not sure if this helps much, it has a small amount of info about Pump flow below the "Nozzle Table" According to this site, looks like there are a few factors: amount of boost, amount of nozzle spray (which depends on injectors,etc). So.. I guess if your fuel flow (Pump, FPR, Injectors) was high enough that you had to have Huge W.I. Nozzles, then the W.I. Pump used could be a limiting factor in the setup. Hope that helps.

-Turblown

 

[dsm-onster]

I wonder what I could run wiyh my evo 16g, 660s, and water injetion, on a stock smic? Anybody run a similar setup? I have really been considering putting w/i on my 89 colt gt that does not have an intercooler

I have a stock smic, a stock rewired fuel pump with stock 450s and a 2g fpr (43 psi base) and this water/alky kit . I have the 250-400 hp nozzle installed. I have been tuning since yesterday and i've gotten to 18 psi with no knock. i think i can get to 20 with no knock...

 

[destrux]

I hate to rain on everyones parade (or theories, in this case)... but depending on the angle of the fitting where the water goes into the IC pipe, you can have either vacuum or pressure or nothing at the same airflow rate through the IC pipe. Most automotive paint sprayguns use pressurized air (90psi in some cases) flowing very fast past what is basically a hole in the side of a tube, which creates vacuum to draw the paint into the airstream inside the tube. You have to realise, it doesnt create the vacuum inside the main tube, but only in the small tube where the paint comes from. The angle of the small tube where it meets the main tube is what determines the amount of vacuum created. If the tube is angled toward oncoming air it will have pressure inside, or if it's directly straight it can have either, depending on the flow and pressure inside the tube.

I have an air pressure operated vacuum attachment that I use to dram a vacuum in an oil evacuation chamber for drawing oil out of dipstick tubes on automatic transmissions (less mess when you drop the pan). It blows air into a tube that has a hole in the side that has a tube that attaches to the top of the fluid tank. It draws 40 inches of vacuum inside and pulls the fluid into the lower fitting on the tank. Works very well. Operates on 100 psi of air.

So if the flow rate past the injector nozzle is high enough, it will suck water in even if there is some pressure inside the pipe. I'd say at low rpm under higher intake pressure it's less likely to draw anything in than under higher rpms and lower intake pressures though. There is also the fact that if you place the nozzle right after a transition from small pipe to larger pipe it will also create a low pressure area there (possibly into negative pressure under some conditions). Since we arent all scientists (me included) I would say what difference does any of it make if you have a check valve or a solenoid to stop flow when the pump is off?

Besides, why would coolingmist bother to have 22psi breaking pressure check valves made if water being drawn in wasnt a problem?

I dont know if anyone said this earlier, but I saw a post way back in the beginning asking about check valves, and to clarify, the check valve is put in to allow flow from the pump into the nozzle, but the valve only opens if more than 22psi is being pushed by the pump, so it also stops water from being sucked through the line even though it's sucking in the direction that the valve normally allows flow. That's a little cloudy... but I dont know how else to put it.

Also does anyone know, if that check valve opens at 22psi, wont that cause the pressure after the valve to drop by 22psi? So a 100 psi pump pushing past a 22psi check valve into 20 psi of boost ends up with only 58 psi at the nozzle?

 

[destrux]

I emailed coolingmist and asked about the check valve thing, and I thought I'd post it here also.

They said there is a 22psi pressure drop across their check valve. They said it will overcome it (which I take to mean once the valve cracks the drop goes away, but that doesnt make sence, since it needs that 22psi pressure to hold hold the valve open the whole time the system is spraying).

I think I will be going with an electric solenoid up near the nozzle and check valve back between the pump and the reservoir (as a safety net if the solenoid sticks open). I only have a 60psi shurflo pump (which I hear can be turned up higher anyway, and I might try since I paid all of $15 for it).

I wish I had a decent hardware store around to buy solenoids and check valves at, since lowes only had the tubing and push fittings and nothing else. I hate waiting for stuff to come in the mail, especially stuff for my car or bikes.

 

[VicBoost]

First off if you are going to do water injection might as well get a bigger turbo. Also where good tutorial on how to do this water injection i'm interested on how it works.