Alcohol / Water Injection Questions!

[Turblown]

I have searched and not found and exact answer...

I'm looking to max out the 14b by using Alcohol / Water Injection. I am assuming that I will need to upgrade fuel injectors first, so the injection kit will fall after fuel injectors in my "upgrade path." Many on this site say that the 14b is less efficient past 17~19psi due to it heatsoaking. I would like to run 22psi+ if possible. Here is my question:

Will a standard Alcohol / Water Injection kit make it possible to run 22psi+ safely?

OR... if I added a Pre-Turbo nozzle in the intake pipe (just an idea) would the 14b be more efficient at higher boost (22psi+) levels?

Thanks for your input!
-Turblown

 

[FireyIce01]

I would really suggest getting a better turbo... alcohol injection isn't a bad thing, but using it as a crutch to compinsate for other inferior parts is... if you want to run higher boost/get more power, look into making the rest of the components support your needs before turning to alchy... it's good on top of other upgrades, but it's not a magic beanstalk for your turbo

 

[Turblown]

I would hardly call the 14b an "inferior part."

 

[doug]

The main purpose for water/alcohol injection is to cool charge air temps. Putting a nozzle before the turbo isn't the way to do that. You could conceivably use a dual stage system to inject before the IC and then before the TB. Whether it would enable you to run 22PSI, I don't know. If you're still on the stock SMIC, airflow would be your main limiting factor now anyway.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41303

 

[leakyfaucet]

People have run 22psi on the 14b with great results. Only difference is they used race gas...

Using an alcohol/water injection kit would allow you to "fake" race gas in a way. If you do it right, it should work with very good results.

 

[Turblown]

People have run 22psi on the 14b with great results

Very Cool. Anyone out there actually running water/alcohol injection on a 14b? What has your experience been?

 

[coolingmist]

we have done tests and found that water injection not only eliminates knock, but in most cars causes the computer to advance timing and gives HP gains. This is just bolting the system on. Tuning would give you even better results.

Some people like corky bells "band-aid" explanation for water injection but if he subscribes to that theory, he would have to admit the intercoolers he sells are also "band-aids".

The fact is, if someone blows an engine up he will wish he had taken every option to prevent it, especially something as cost effective as water injection.

 

[91boost]

we have done tests and found that water injection not only eliminates knock, but in most cars causes the computer to advance timing and gives HP gains. This is just bolting the system on. Tuning would give you even better results.

Some people like corky bells "band-aid" explanation for water injection but if he subscribes to that theory, he would have to admit the intercoolers he sells are also "band-aids".

The fact is, if someone blows an engine up he will wish he had taken every option to prevent it, especially something as cost effective as water injection.

I love Corky's book, but there are many things like this that I disagree with him on. WI is no band-aid.

Also, WI has tremendous cleaning power. It also has been proven in many instances to help level out compression numbers because of this.

 

[doug]

I love Corky's book, but there are many things like this that I disagree with him on.

I almost had replied saying the same exact thing.

Also, I noticed some WI systems include some kind of "one-way check valve"-- is this only required if the nozzle is below the level of the water pump?

 

[Quasimondo]

I believe so...without it, the water would slowly drain back into the resivoir and that would mean a delay between when you activate the pump and it starts spraying into your intake tract.

I would think that if you're using solenoids to control the nozzle you wouldn't need a check valve....just turn on the pump to prime the system and when it's ready to spray, the solenoid would open up to the nozzles.

 

[Shadowfax]

you guys should look into alchy injection further- alcohol doesn't absorb as well molecule for molecule as water, true, but it's ability to burn as fuel (albeit like 8%) and it's flash properties make it superior for most drivers (also debatable is that fact that most of your alcohol molecules are actually smaller than a water molecule hence the possiblity of greater cooling within a set area). The SMC alchy kit is a nice one I've ran on my Stealth, a VR4 and now on the DSM (when I gets off my butt and installs my ARP head bolts and new gasket ).

Go to www.turbobuick.com and start reading alchy forum threads. You'll find that most of them prefer alchy of some sort to water. Also possible to use for similar purposes (though typically more for fuel band-aid) is propane injection.

turbobuick are the guys that for all intents commercially started alchy injection, and they know it best regardless.

And even though I'm not NEEDING to run alchy, I will simply cause it does steam clean REALLY well.

 

[wret]

I almost had replied saying the same exact thing.

Also, I noticed some WI systems include some kind of "one-way check valve"-- is this only required if the nozzle is below the level of the water pump?

Water lines are connected to air passages that are under vacuum, at least part of the time. Check valves prevent the uncontrolled suction of the water reservoir into the engine.

 

[Shadowfax]

Water lines are connected to air passages that are under vacuum, at least part of the time. Check valves prevent the uncontrolled suction of the water reservoir into the engine.

Check valves would also help keep the lines full under boost - but not under actuation

 

[4pistons]

Check out the DSM Water Injection group at Yahoo http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DSM_water_injection/ They've done just about every setup and configuration you can think of.

WI can be a good investment especially on a 14b turbo that we push to the limits. Granted, upgrading to a larger turbo may negate the need for WI, some of us want to get the max out of what we have.

Check valves prevent the uncontrolled suction of the water reservoir into the engine.

There is no vacuum in the intake tract where the nozzles are usually placed. The check valves keep positive pressure from blowing the water back down the injection line so it always ready to go right at the nozzle with no lag. If you're using a solenoid then you don't need a check valve.

Rick - '91 GSX H2O Injected

 

[doug]

If you're using a solenoid then you don't need a check valve.

OK, now I get it-- that's the piece of the puzzle I was missing. Thanks!

 

[Jehu]

There is no vacuum in the intake tract where the nozzles are usually placed. The check valves keep positive pressure from blowing the water back down the injection line so it always ready to go right at the nozzle with no lag. If you're using a solenoid then you don't need a check valve.

Rick - '91 GSX H2O Injected

I don't agree...even prior to the throttle body, under part throttle situations you do see vacumn. Personally I always put a check valve right before a nozzle. I think of it as a second barrier for preventing water from getting sucked into the engine.

 

[4pistons]

even prior to the throttle body, under part throttle situations you do see vacumn

How do you do that when the other end of your intake pipe is open to the atmosphere? (thru the air filter) And your turbo is spinning enough at light throttle to keep the pipes filled with air. The intake tract would have to be sealed to maintain any vacuum.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[Shadowfax]

How do you do that when the other end of your intake pipe is open to the atmosphere? (thru the air filter) And your turbo is spinning enough at light throttle to keep the pipes filled with air. The intake tract would have to be sealed to maintain any vacuum.

Rick - '91 GSX

vacuum or low pressure?

Just because something has air in it, doesn't mean that it isn't being sucked quick enough to cause low pressure.

Vacuum, boost, low pressure, high pressure... they aren't the same... kinda like why we talk in terms of BOOST or PSI when really airflow is what we care about.

And I'll be installing my SMC Alchy kit this week (installing ARP head studs now) and I'll let you know how high I can go on stock injectors (with a 190lph pump)

 

[4pistons]

doesn't mean that it isn't being sucked quick enough to cause low pressure

If the air can be "sucked quick enough" then it also moves quick enough to fill in the "vacuum" behind it. What you're talking about is so tiny an amount and so instant it is negligable.

like why we talk in terms of BOOST or PSI when really airflow is what we care about.

Who does that? Boost and airflow aren't the same and they should never be equated.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[Shadowfax]

If the air can be "sucked quick enough" then it also moves quick enough to fill in the "vacuum" behind it. What you're talking about is so tiny an amount and so instant it is negligable.

not so. Why would your boost gauge show vacuum if there isn't? In order to actually make it up to 0 pressure (which is really just an ambient 1 bar) takes a hell of a lot. A few of the old school cross ram and long ram manifolds would show a couple psi boost from the velocity, but until boost comes on, you easily have the ability to suck liquid from the negative pressure. Remember that it's high pressure moving to low pressure - you don't need actual boost or vacuum. As long as there is lower pressure in the IC piping than in the alchy resevoir then you'd get fluid moving.

Who does that? Boost and airflow aren't the same and they should never be equated.

Rick - '91 GSX

any time we tell someone to not exceed 15psi on stock fuel (example) we're saying boost - meaning airflow. It's not the boost that matters, one can boost to 17psi on a T25 and be safe (as far as boost/airflow- heat is another matter ) compared to a 20G on 17psi. It's not the boost that matters, it's the airflow that will cause you to run lean.

Vacuum and low pressure are similar- we use the term vacuum cause that's what the gauge reads- acutally there is air in the piping hence it's impossible to have ACTUAL vacuum, however compared to ambient, there is definate suction caused by high pressure to low pressure flow. Not to be confused, there is actual vacuum caused by the pistons in the cylinders when they move downward.

 

[4pistons]

You're talking BEHIND the throttle, I'm talking about the intake piping in front of it.

We've sort of hijacked this thread. The original question was about water injection and why a one-way check valve was used. If it was to keep the water from being "sucked" out of the line (which is under debate) it would also keep the water from being injected. It is a one-way valve that prevents drainback not forward flow.

If we need to discuss vacuum and airflow it should be on a different thread.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[nellystyle]

I want to see what you run on the stock injectors. I have a 1995 awd 14b'd and I'm looking into water injection (washer fluid though, not alcohol, not water strictly). I'm leaning heavily towards w/i instead of 550's. 550s will come in due time though. I feel the benefits of the w/i; steam clean engine, run higher boost, lower cooling temps; outweigh the benefits of doing injectors 1st. Since i only plan on running 20psi on the 14b...well, its more of being forced to since the bastard spikes to 20 now with my downpipe on even set at 10psi on a h-mbc....it should be adequate. Let's see how those 450s go!! also, post your afc or logging results if you have them; i'll need a reference for my afc-2. thanks!

 

[BGRIPTP]

Is thier any water injection kits designed for our cars that are on sale right now? Or are they all home made?

 

[Turblown]

www.alkycontrol.com
www.coolingmist.com
www.aquamist.co.uk
www.snowperformance.net
www.smcenterprises.com/alcohol.htm

 

[Quasimondo]

Are any of you W.I. guys using a MAF+T in a blow-thru setup? I'm considering using two nozzles, one near the TB elbow, and one before the intercooler. It seems like that setup was more effective in keeping knock under control, but would having water go through the MAF like that damage it or cause it to give an incorrect reading to the ECU? Would I be better off relocating the MAF to the intake?

Also, how do you determine how much flow a nozzle will have or is there a chart out there?