97 Eagle Talon Tsi AWD - Project VGT

[knochgoon24]

If you've been looking at some of my posts recently, I've made a few remarks here and there about doing a VGT setup using a Holset turbo. Well, I've finally accumulated enough parts that I think it's time to start the build thread.

It may take me a few days to get all the info I have so far in here, but I wanted to make sure I had enough info to make it worth your while.


Table of Contents

Background

-Goals for the car -- Why a VGT? What is a VGT? Why should you read the rest of this?
-HE351ve Info
-Parts list, prices, and the amassing of parts​

The Electronics

-Summary of my control theory
-My proposed control setup
-Fitting new stepper motor to turbo's actuator​

Misc

Teaser Photos
A few more goodies showed up​

The Build Week

Day 1 -- March 4th​

​

 

[knochgoon24]

Goals for the car -- Why a VGT? What is a VGT? Why should you read the rest of this?

First and foremost, my car is my DD. Luckily, I live in a college town where I can take buses to work and classes if my car has to be down for an extended period. But as it sits, my car has 260,000 miles on it. I'll continue putting 12k+ on it every year until I finally get to the point where this car becomes a traditional project car.

I do occasionally autox my car. It falls firmly in the SM class for SCCA. It was SM before I even knew what autox was, and I've never raced in any other class. Currently, it gets out powered by the Evos and out handled by Miatas. I aim to fix both of those by the time I'm "done" with the car.

But as much as I love autoxing the car, there's I want more power. With a turbocharged car, it's always been "pick 2: fast, cheap, reliable." So far, cheap and reliable has been my mantra. With this new turbo setup, I hope to get a little closer to that "fast" bit without loosing too much of the "reliable" part.


Which brings me to my setup. Some of you may be completely unfamiliar with that a VGT is. VGT is Holset's terminology for their new Variable Geometry Turbochargers. Garrett and MHI also make turbochargers with variable turbine sections, but each company does so just a bit differently.

The turbo I chose for this project is the HE351ve. On it Holset put a moveable back plate that decreases the area, 'A', part of A/R.

This is what the moveable plate looks like:
(Youtube video - I'll make one of my own with a little more info soon)
Holset HE351VE VGT Exhaust Housing Actuation Dodge Ram 07-08' - YouTube

The basic idea is as follows.

Hopefully, this will give me spool like a 16g, while having the flow potential of a much larger turbo. That's the idea anyway.

 

[knochgoon24]

HE351ve Info

Some Info From http://www.turbotalk.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=4

Compressor
Same as HX40 Pro?
-Inducer: 2.37" ~ 60mm
-Exducer: 3.38" ~ 86mm
-# Blades: 7
-Trim: 49
-Inlet: 4"
-Outlet: 2.5" V-band

Turbine
Same as HX35?
-Inducer: 2.755" ~ 70mm
-Exducer: 2.357" ~ 60mm
-# Blades: 12
-Trim: 73
-Inlet: Proprietary Holset Flange - Can be found on eBay, but a T3 flange can be slotted to fit. Then the turbine inlet can be ported a tad to smooth out a slight step.

-Outlet: 3.5" V-band - Most people weld their own V-band flange to the housing.

Oil and Coolant
-Coolant Feed/Return: both M16x1.5
-Oil Feed: M12x1.5
-Oil Drain: Two M8x1.25
-Recommend Pressure and Flow:

Other Info
-Travel of VGT backing plate:
-Rotation angle of VGT arm:
-Gears in VGT mechanism: 23.08:1 ratio w/ 13T motor:14T final
Housing variable from very small (3-4cm^2) to very large (25cm^2).

Some reports from guys running wastegate actuators to control the VGT are seeing 5psi by 2300rpm. I hope to get it to spool sooner with the electronic control.

 

[knochgoon24]

Parts list, prices, and the amassing of parts

Hard Stuff
HE351ve - $230 - eBay
XS Power T3 Manifold - $110 - Classifieds
Turbosmart 38mm WG - $110 - Classifieds
CXRacing Honda 3-core Half Radiator $100 - eBay

Electronics (All from eBay unless noted)

Arduino Mega 2560 - $62

I2C Stepper Controller Driver AMIS30624 - $30

NEMA 17 6V Stepper Motor - $12

I2C 20x4 LCD Screen - $27

SD Card Shield Plus - $24

Freescale MMA7660FCR1 Accelerometer Board - $8
(2) MAX31855 Type K Thermocouple to Digital Converter - $28
(Left: Accelerometer, Center and Right: K-Type Voltage Converters

(2) EGT - K type Thermocouple - $40
[Here but no photos yet.]

(5) EPCOS Precision NTC Thermistor - $12
(1) MPXH6115AC6U-ND - 1 BAR Pressure Sensor- $10.24 - Digi-Key
(1) MPXH6250AC6U-ND - 2 BAR Pressure Sensor- $9.99 - Digi-Key
(2) MPXH6300AC6U-ND - 3 BAR Pressure Sensor - $19.98 - Digi-Key
(1) MPXH6400AC6U-ND - 4 BAR Pressure Sensor- $9.99 - Digi-Key
(Thermistors in bag. Pressure sensors below. Decade counters below that.)

AN Fittings Direct, Inc. Order (Silicone Intake Systems)
Intake:
1 x 4.0" Silicone Straight Coupler, Black (SIL000437) = $9.99
1 x 4.0" Silicone 45° Elbow, Black (SIL000433) = $24.99
1 x 2' Mandrel Bent Aluminum 45° Bend, 4.0" (SIL000773) = $29.99
2 x Stainless Steel 4" Worm Gear Clamp (84-108mm) (CLA001048) = $2.98
3 x T-Bolt Clamp for 4.0" Silicone Parts (CLA000310) = $7.80

Exhaust:
1 x 2' Mandrel Bent Stainless Steel 180° Bend, 3.0" (SIL001574) = $24.99
1 x 1' Mandrel Bent Stainless Steel 45° Bend, 1.5" (SIL000835) = $12.99
1 x 3.5" Stainless Steel V-Band Clamp Rings (Set of 2) (CLA000321) = $34.99
1 x 3.5" V-Band Clamp (CLA000315) = $9.99
1 x 3.0" Stainless Steel V-Band Clamp Rings (Set of 2) (CLA000319) = $29.99
1 x 3.0" V-Band Clamp (CLA000314) = $9.99
1 x 2" X 100' Fiberglass Exhaust/Header Wrap, Black (HEA000564) = $19.99

Coolant/Oil:
2 x Brass 3/4" NPS Male to 3/4" Barbed Straight (WAT001019) = $7.98
2 x Stainless Steel 1" Worm Gear Clamp (14-27mm) (CLA001032) = $1.98
2 x Stainless Steel Line Straight Adaptor, -6 AN Silver (ANF001243) = $9.98
3 x PTFE Braided Stainless Steel Lines, -6 AN, per ft. (ANF001200) = $10.47
1 x .023 R/T SINGLE JET NX 17023 (NXP008513) = $4.39



Self Made Stuff

Turbo Oil Return Flange (2" bolt center with 3/4" NPT hole)

Oil Pan Oil Return Flange (38mm? bolt center with 3/4" NPT hole)

 

[knochgoon24]

Summary of my control theory

(I'll get around to it at some point)

 

[knochgoon24]

My proposed control setup


Controlling the turbo using an Arduino and accessories to power a small bipolar stepper motor. I plan on making a 3D map in the Arduino that is TPS vs. RPM with target boost as the data. The turbo will move the vanes to decrease the area until one of 3 criteria is met:

1. Turbine Drive Pressure Ratio hits a predefined limit.
2. Target Boost is met
3. Shaft Speed hits a predefined limit.​

If any of those conditions happen, it opens the vanes more. If none of them are met, it closes them a little.


I'll have temperature and pressure sensors in 6 positions:

1. Pre compressor
2. Post compressor / pre intercooler
3. Post intercooler / pre throttle body
4. Intake Manifold
5. Pre turbine
6. Post turbine​

With all of these sensors, I should be able to calculate the compressor and turbine efficiencies on the fly and log them. All these sensors aren't critical to the setup, but I like having all this data available.

In the future, this may change to a 3D map that has a step position in it and trims based on efficiencies, but we'll see.

 

[knochgoon24]

Fitting new stepper motor to turbo's actuator

Here's the factory control board. So far, no one has figured out what the correct commands are to control it. Initially, I had plans to use this motor, but without the control board, but I damaged the motor during disassembly.

Source: Turbo Talk - View topic - 95 TSI AWD HE351VE VGT Holset Build

This shows a side view. The motor is under that cylindrical part.

And this is just the rough cut. I still need to do a little more work on it this evening. That little shaft with the bearing still stuck on it will be reused. It's the shaft out of the old motor. I'll turn the shaft and bearing off in a lathe then bore it out to fit the 5mm shaft of the new motor. Then I'll drill and tap it for a set screw and that should be that. The gear sticking out of the first photo is on the end of that shaft.

Here's the motor I'll be installing instead. It is a NEMA 17 size, 6V, 1.8° per full step, 0.8A per coil, bipolar stepper motor.

Here's the pattern I made for attaching the motor to the existing bolt holes that held the PCB. I used Balsa wood to make the pattern because it was much easier than steel to work with and shave to the size.
[Photo coming soon]

Finished product.

I'll probably seal around the motor with silicone to keep dirt and grime out of the gears.

 

[knochgoon24]

Teaser Photos

 

[knochgoon24]

A few more goodies showed up.

CXRacing Honda half-radiator

VRSF 2g FMIC kit

Also, most of the electronics have arrived.

I did a little test with the LCD. I didn't have the pressure sensors yet, so I used a pot to simulate the output of one. Worked well. I still don't have the stepper working yet. I've had trouble figuring out the I2C address for the device, and am waiting for an e-mail.

I also ordered a 3/4" NPT tap and a 59/64" drill bit to make myself an oil drain flange that will allow a -12an fitting to be used. I'll be making extras, so keep an eye out in the classifieds if you're interested.

And to top it all off, it looks like I'll be doing another wheel bearing here in the next few weeks.

 

[Sebba]

Finally someone is willing to give this a shot. As soon as this technology came out for diesels I immediately thought of its potential for DSM's .

Get 'er done.

 

[knochgoon24]

I just wish I had a little more time on my hands to work on this. Plus, I have no garage of my own. I have to go to my buddy's place to get out of the weather.

 

[airmail96]

AWesome man good luck with this build, I am planning on using VGT on my car, but going the mechanical route.

 

[knochgoon24]

I'm going electrical because I'm a glutton for punishment.

I worked out some more of the wiring schematic tonight. Currently trying to figure out what connectors I'll need to order. It's going to be a bit crazy. I'll have one box under the hood that will be a junction for the pressure and temperature, including the EGT. Then there will be a box in the car, probably the glove box, with the rest of the stuff. The accelerometer will have to go in it's own box mounted to the firewall.

I'm still debating what I'm going to do with the LCD. I thought about switching to a graphical screen so I can fit more data on it, but that may happen in the future. I need to stop adding features.

I may add oil pressure, oil temperature, and transmission temperature inputs too. Adding them would be simple compared to the other stuff so far.

I haven't had much time to work further on the stepper control. My great-grandma died last week (God rest her soul, at 93) so I had to travel out of town and miss some classes last week. So I'm now playing catchup with my college course on top of 25 hrs/wk of work and 2 school clubs; one of which is the FSAE team, where I'm currently working on the wiring for car.

 

[knochgoon24]

Well, not a whole ton of progress, but did manage to get something done while the weather was nice today.

Got the radiator in and that all setup.

Plenty of room for a big turbo now.


I also got my NPT tap set and matching drill bits in the mail yesterday. I now have have the 3/4" NPT tap to make the oil return flanges.


I hope to get some more work done on the electronics this weekend, but the Superbowl may hamper that effort.

 

[knochgoon24]

Well I was going to order the parts to make my oil return tonight, but then I found this little gem.

So it seems that even my -12an return hose setup wouldn't have been as large as I had hoped. So I'll now be running 3/4" NPT to 3/4" barb fittings instead, with 3/4" hose run for the drain.

 

[talonalex92]

Hard to tell in the picture, did you leave the radiator cap on the honda rad? If so, what kind of hood clearance is there?

 

[RWD4G63]

I hope you plan on building a new manifold sometime soon. That thing will never support the tank that is the HE351VE.

Hopefully you don't run into the seal burnup problems that my friends have with the VE.

Looking forward to seeing how this goes.

 

[knochgoon24]

The radiator cap is still there. I don't have any hood clearance problems with the cap. I check with some clay and I have almost 1/2" of clearance to the cap.

I do need to come up with a better top bracket for the rad. I'll probably pull it back out and weld a couple nuts on the underside of that top brace for 2 bolts.

I'll be reinforcing this manifold and building a brace that attaches to the block. I'll be angling the turbo flange, too. It was cheaper to buy this an modify it than it would have been to buy pieces and build one from scratch.

I eventually have plans to build a top mount setup for it. That will make it much easier to brace the runners to the block.

 

[knochgoon24]

Placed anther order for more stuff from AN Fittings Direct. It's just another name for Silicone Intake Systems. I've placed orders with them before and was really pleased with the quality.

Decided on making my own 3" o2 housing. It will have a 3.5" v-band to match up with the turbo. And the other end will have a 3" v-band for the downpipe. I'll cut the current flange off my downpipe for the v-band. Getting rid of gaskets 1 step at a time. I'll be welding this myself. This should be interesting...

Also, I just hit my initial estimate ($1100 + FMIC). I should only need another $40 in fittings and a few pieces of aluminum. That will cover all the hardware.

For the electronics, everything has been purchased but the enclosure and some plugs to make a harness instead of hard-wiring it all together. It should come in pretty close to the usual "estimate + 10%".

I know this isn't exactly falling in the "budget Holset" category, but I fully intend on this being the last turbo setup this car will ever need. I have $300 in electronics alone.

Funny story. This project may end up landing me an interview with Cummins for a job. I was talking with the one of the Cummins guys are the career fair we just had here at PSU and he was impressed with the idea of the setup. He said he's sending my resume to the HR person for what is essentially the turbocharger design department, with a note about this on it. Guess I have to get this working now.

 

[knochgoon24]

Well after getting frustrated dealing with this I2C based stepper motor (why can't they just put the possible I2C address explicitly in the data sheets!) I think I'm going to run it off a Allegro A4988 driver instead. It's still only 2 wires because I have no reason to need a resolution smaller than 1.8° with a 23:1 ratio already. That gives me a 0.08° resolution on the VGT arm. Way more than plenty. This also supports up to 2A per coil (4A total) which is twice what I had before, and may be important if I choose to run the OEM motor down the road.

This won't have the stall or missed step detection that the other driver had, but I don't that's going to be critical.

This will need a large heat sink and possibly a fan. I'll monitor the temp with one of the thermistors I bought (yay extras) and see if it needs the fan. This setup has a much larger support base and even a Arduino library already written for it. I should have just gone with this one first like I intended, but I was too excited about trying to get everything on I2C. Live and learn.

 

[knochgoon24]

375' of wire (don't ask), a new stepper controller, and the oil and coolant banjo fittings are all ordered.

As far as I know, the only things left to get are the electrical connectors, a 38mm WG flange, and some aluminum bungs for my IAT/Pressure sensor setups.

I'm starting to go a bit over budget, but f* it. I'm not half-as***g it just to do it all over 6 months later. Motorcycle project put on complete hold until who-knows-when.


Congrats Talon. You have all my undivided attention once again. Happy now?

 

[NWHTanK]

Im lost in this stuff im glad im just doing easy stuff.Keep up the brainiac stuff. Maybe it will make me smarter reading you thread. Geterrr done!

 

[Blurred Talon]

Awesome!

I love electronics so I'll be keeping an eye on this build.

 

[knochgoon24]

All the...

fittings
electronics
exhaust parts
intake parts​

...have been ordered.​

All I need to do is get some gas for the MIG and some time off.


Keep an eye out March 3rd - 11th.

During that week, all the major work will be done. I may post a few updates about electronics in the mean time, but nothing too major. I did get the new stepper driver today, so I hope to have video of VGT movement within the next week or two. I have code written for the LCD, temperature, TPS, and pressure sensors done. I hope to knock out the EGT and accelerometer soon. Then the stepper soon after that. Still trying to figure out how I'm going to do engine and turbo RPM.


I'll be making my own IAT/pressure combination sensors that will fit in a 1/2" NPT plug. I'll need to get bungs welded on my IC piping at some point for those.

 

[knochgoon24]

I started 1 day later than I planned, but I've now started.

Sadly, today was nothing but bad news.

1. The T3 manifold I bought (XSPower) has no chance of working if I want to bolt the stepper motor on. It places the turbo too far towards the drivers side. The bulge for the balance shaft is in the way. I tried and tried and tried to make the manifold work. I even cut all the flanges off and adjusted the angles, but it's just too far towards that side.

So it looks like I'll be ordering a different manifold (one I originally planned on using) tomorrow with express delivery. Should get here Thursday if I do that.

Which leads me to the second bad thing...


2. It's not going to have electronic control for a little while.

I've been way too busy with classes to get any work done on it before this break. And now with the manifold problem, I'm going to be pushing it just to finish.

It will eventually get the electronics, hopefully by mid-April.


3. And the icing on the cake... while taking the old turbo off, I broke 2 bolts off in the turbine housing. So much for being grade 12.9 bolts. They even had anti-seize.


I'd post a few photos, but my camera battery was dead when I went to use it. And there really isn't much to look at yet anyway.

Here's a cell phone photo of the manifold after much cutting and welding. The electronics still won't clear the block. When I adjusted it more to clear the block, it won't clear the radiator.