650 to small for evo III 16G?

[hollandeclipse]

I have an eclipse 1 gen gsx with evo 3 16g @ 20 psi, 650 cc inj, afpr @ 43 psi, walbro 225, 3inch turbo back, 2g maf, afc 1, 98ron pumpgas

I had to set my low throttle at 1000 rpm -8, 2000 to 8000 at 0 to get good fuel trims
I have to set my hi throttle at + 8 through the whole range to get knock as low as possible (max 7 knocks in 4th 0 knocks in 2nd or 3rd) when I lean out the hi throttle knocks get a lot more and when I go richer the cra starts to stutter as there is not enough fuel.

I´am thinking of two things 1st fuelfilter, 2nd low voltage on my fuelpump.

Do you guys have any suggestions how I can test these or perhaps someone has had the same problems.

 

[Calan]

Running a mix of E85 and pump at 22 psi, my IDC's were usually around 90%. On pump @ 20 psi, your 650's should be fine, although you don't have a whole lot of wiggle room left.

I agree with checking the fuel filter (just replace it if it's been on there a while)... do you have a logger? If not...GET ONE!

 

[Steve93Talon]

You need a logger and a wideband, without knowing your AFRs and IDCs you're gonna have a hard time tuning anything or telling if your injectors are maxed out. Tuning by knock counts alone is pointless, your AFRs and timing curve could be perfect and you can still knock if charge temps are too high, or you have carbon build-up in the combustion chamber...

 

[jrohner]

If you're maxing out 650's on gas, you either have a fuel supply issue or are just running way too rich -- especially considering you don't even have cams. I had my car running 20+ psi every day on 550's when I was running gas (crappy 91 even). My cousin is running 24psi on E85 with 680's; I'm over 400awhp with 750's on E85.

 

[360glitch]

Have you rewired your fuel pump? Seems like something you should definitely do if not.

 

[pboglio]

My Denso 660's hit 97% duty cycle the other night on a little T28 and pump gas. My 150 LPH fuel pump probably isn't helping any. Having said that rewiring my fuel pump completely changed my fuel map. Voltage drop off on 2g DSM's is a real problem on stock gage wiring. If I had a Walbro 255 pump I'd be drowning in fuel.

 

[banishedmunk]

650's are fine. I was running 660's and 24 lbs with no knock what so ever on 93 oct. My buddy he was running 28 on 93octane with 650's and no knock at all. are you using a super afc?

 

[hollandeclipse]

Thx for the suggestions.

I do have a SAFC and I am logging with MMCD. I am sure it is not rich knock, cause when I lower the hi settings knocking gets a lot more and climbs to 25.

To my feeling it is a shortage of fuel.

I noticed today that my Karman readings are really low. Max 1600 at full boost.

Do you know how I can test the fuel pump voltage?

 

[pboglio]

A volt meter. It should spin at 13 volts when fully rewired but when pushed on the stock wires I've seen as low as 11.8 volts. Its a huge difference in fuel capacity, especially when your running megaboost which tends to slow down the fuel pump motor.

 

[banishedmunk]

do a boost leak test at about 21-22 psi and see what you find i had the same problem and found once i got to my higher boost level i was leaking all over the place

 

[hollandeclipse]

I already have performed a boostleak test and no leaks. I don't have the fuelpump rewired yet. I will go for the pump test so I assume I just have to get two long wires connect them to pos and neg side of the pump and bring thim into the car and then connect the multimeter to the wires to check voltage during boost?

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

What does your timing look like?? I bet you are seeing a lot of knock due to the fact that you have excessive timing with the SAFC and 650's. I ended up going away from the SAFC and burn my own chips so that I have control of the timing. Check your base timing also. Can you post a log for us all to view that would help a lot.

Also, you are still on the stock SMIC correct? Get a FMIC and you will see large gains with knock control. I was in the same situation you are a couple months ago. 650's, SAFC, and SMIC = knock

 

[hollandeclipse]

Sorry for not mentioning but I do have a large FMIC with 2,5" piping. Tomorrow I will try to get a log posted.

 

[jrohner]

Have you checked your base timing? You may need to back it off a couple degrees; the 1g timing map is pretty aggressive, and your afc tuning is probably making it even more aggressive.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

What does your timing look like?? I bet you are seeing a lot of knock due to the fact that you have excessive timing with the SAFC and 650's. I ended up going away from the SAFC and burn my own chips so that I have control of the timing. Check your base timing also. Can you post a log for us all to view that would help a lot.

Also, you are still on the stock SMIC correct? Get a FMIC and you will see large gains with knock control. I was in the same situation you are a couple months ago. 650's, SAFC, and SMIC = knock

I wanted him to check the same thing.... Good call though...

 

[JayRolla]

To much boost for the stock 1g timing map is the reason for knock. First off get the logger out. Im guessing anywhere from 22-28* timing is what you will see. Most likely more around 21-22* with the tune you have now since your adding fuel when usually with that size injectors you would be pulling fuel. So im guessing your running way to rich, because your throughing fuel at a knock problem that can only be fixed with less timing.

Get a wbo2 ASAP so you can really tune the car. At the moment what I would do is pull base timing back to around 1-2* btdc and pull some fuel out. If you dont have knock then keep pulling fuel untill you do.

 

[jrohner]

Most likely more around 21-22* with the tune you have now since your adding fuel when usually with that size injectors you would be pulling fuel. So im guessing your running way to rich, because your throughing fuel at a knock problem that can only be fixed with less timing.

He's also tuning for the 2g airflow sensor though, not just for larger injectors. I would still think to though that his high load should be pulling a little fuel, not adding.

Dude, have someone follow you -- if they tell you that your car smokes black when you are accelerating, it's wayyyyyy too rich. I'm sure it will be smoking too.

 

[hollandeclipse]

I have to check timing but to my opinion timing is being retarded when you add fuel on an AFC or am I wrong?

My low settings are:

1000 rpm -8
2000 - 8000 rpm 0

My hi settings are (to get the min. of 7 knocks):

1000 rpm +6
2000 rpm +7
3000-8000 rpm +8

My fueltrims are:
Low 101%
Mid 111 % (very long time to change, difficult ot get any lower)
Hi 135 % (not changing at all not even after 14 days)

I did do the smoke test and it was negative we could not see any smoke from the exhaust. To be honest I had expected it also but not even a small black one.

Is it possible to check the fuel pressure if someone else sits on the one rearsit and the other rearsit is fold down to reach the fuelpump or is this al silly idea.

 

[JayRolla]

Too Much Timing, Pull Base Timing To 1-2*.

 

[jrohner]

I have to check timing but to my opinion timing is being retarded when you add fuel on an AFC or am I wrong?

No you are not because you are also running a 2g MAS, which leans your car vs the stock 1g MAS.

Also, the stock maps only go to an airflow that relates to around 15psi of boost, so even if you were adding fuel (which you actually aren't because of the MAS change) you would still be at the highest map. When you are actually leaning the car, you MAY be at a lower load in the maps which will add timing, but if you up the boost enough you are still right back up to the highest load. Even at the top load value in the maps, timing is probably too aggressive -- it was designed for 15psi max which it's still aggressive sometimes.

 

[hollandeclipse]

I totally fogot that the maf swap is also advancing my timing rather stupid of me

Jeff also has pointed my t o this issue. Now up to solving this.

Can't i just replace my 650's for 550's so I have to set the afc more positive which will perhaps retard timing. Or is the only way to have an eprom ecu with a chip? Or perhaps you have any other ideas.

 

[JayRolla]

But I ran out of fuel with 550's at 20psi. Why cant you just retard the timing. If you pull it back to about 2* it will still run fine and your timing map will loose 3*.

 

[jrohner]

Definately change your base timing -- that's one advantage of an AFC on a 1g vs a 2g.

If you have an eprom ecu (both my 91's did), either buy a chip or get a burner or emulator and learn how to do it. It's a far superior way to tune and it's actually easier to tune using TunerPro than it is with an AFC. Set your injector size and deadtime, lean the crappy rich stock maps, and you've got a good baseline tune. You can tune the maps in TunerPro and that's all you really need to do unless you want to start trying some advanced stuff -- like coding a 2-step rev limiter (which is easy to do), using the solenoids to control different things like meth injection or a knock buzzer, or changing the factory liar boost gauge to a knock gauge (my favorite).

 

[JayRolla]

DSMlink is so much easier but cost so much. I think I would rather pay the extra cash to have the on the fly tuning, instead of having to remove the chip to retune.

 

[->PrOjEcTGS<-]

DSMlink is so much easier but cost so much. I think I would rather pay the extra cash to have the on the fly tuning, instead of having to remove the chip to retune.

I don't want to turn this into a "what to tune with debate" but you can use an ostrich and tunerpro RT (Real Time) and have on the fly tuning capabilities with far more adjustablility.